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How to remove oil pump on Flathead?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kidwired, Nov 17, 2004.

  1. kidwired
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    kidwired Member

    In all the excitement I forgot to ask, is it just a pick up or what? I took the bolt out but it dont wanna comeout. Thought I'd ask b4 resorting to brute force.
  2. 296 V8
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    296 V8 BANNED

    Try using some carb cleaner and twisting on it.
    I had a hell of a time getting one out. ended up having to heat up the block with a torch on the back side.
  3. Bruce Lancaster
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    Bruce Lancaster
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    And make sure the twisting is pure twist motion--any serious lateral force can break the casting. Pull the little plate at the back of the block as another place to shoot in carb cleaner, perhaps to pry some too...
    There's one bolt holding pump to block, which I'm sure you found. Anything else is just petrified crud.
  4. Bruce Lancaster
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    Bruce Lancaster
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    A strap wrench is a good way to apply twist up close to the block on these. Remember the anti-sieze goo when it goes back together. Your grandchildren will thank you...
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  5. kidwired
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    kidwired Member

    very well then brute force it is!
    I need to get it off so it will fit in 50 gal drum.

    Amen to antiseize, I use it on everything. BTDT too many times. Like having to break off a $400 alum timing chain cover. [​IMG]
  6. Bruce Lancaster
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    Bruce Lancaster
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    I THINK you can pry down from above through the little drive cover, but don't remember for sure how it all goes back there--will look in a spare block when I get home.
    Flatdog called and says ixnay on the anti-sieze for inside the engine--he thinks there's some mineral content that is an abrasive. So, just greaseitup.
    I've never had problems there, anyway--mine have generally pretty much fallen out.
  7. Smokin Joe
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    Smokin Joe Member

  8. pigpen
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    pigpen Member

    After using a little WD40, I hung the motor by the oil pump on a hoist, and tapped the oil pump with a ball peen hammer. Worked for me.

    pigpen

    (Don't hang it too high!)
  9. bluthndr
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    bluthndr Member

    I'm down to my bare block on my 46, with the pump housing broken off just below the block surface, and the shaft sticking up about 6 inches or so. I feel like I've tried everything to get it out! I'm nervous about getting the block too hot with a torch...

    I have been soaking it with ATF and PB blaster, then putting vise grips on the shaft and trying to drive it down by hammering the vise-grips, but it won't budge! Been at it once a day for almost a week now...

    I think I finally have burned/scraped/brake-cleaned all the stuff around the base of it away. Maybe tomorrow will be my lucky day.

    Anyone got any advice? I don't want to ruin the block by getting it "too hot" back there, and I'm nervous about the pounding cracking it too...
  10. Bruce Lancaster
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    Bruce Lancaster
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    Wow...I'm baffled. I've always been able to getemout with my bare hands!
    Thoughts: Remove pump drive cover plate in flywheel area for another view and access point. Remove cam--that'll keep you entertained for a while, I know...
    Get another pump, any year will do, so you can measure the part of casting that's broken off on yours. Carefully center-punch the wall of the broken off casting in your block, doing your best to get punch mark at center of wall thickness. Do this twice, 180 apart. Drill. Try to rig a drill guide like a piece of steel drilled on a drill press that can sit on block surface, if not possible clean your glasses, set block parallel to world, and concentrate on making the holes as close to perfectly parallel to pump shaft as possible. Put some sort of stop around all drill bits used in this entertainment so drill cannot go deeper than end of pump casting--there ain't nuttin up there you want extra holes in! Enlarge holes to largest possible without getting into block. Goal is to rattle that sucker's cage hard, and perhaps to split it into two chunks with some play.
    Another random thought--if whole engine isn't a siezed lump, try removing the timing gear and turning over the cam with one of those huge screwdriver type sockets made for truck/Model A tie rod ends.
    One of those crossing-the-Rubicon moments here--you gotta see this through til the evil casting is defeated or go buy a Volvo and take up heavy TV viewing as a replacement for rodding...
  11. pigpen
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    pigpen Member

    I have a new pump in my hot little hand as we speak. If your casting is broken off flush with the block, there are 3 1/2 more inches of oil pump casting left. That's a lot of drilling if you try that method. I would try to remove the roll pin from the upper gear that meshes with the cam then remove the gear. The shaft should then drop out leaving only the cast oil pump housing or what's left of it. Next, use a large tap to thread the casting where the shaft goes through. (Possibly 3/4 or more, can't tell for sure.) Install a bolt in the hole that you threaded and attach a slide hammer to the bolt. After all of your soaking, the slide hammer should break it loose. If you can't get the shaft out, just hook the slide hammer to it ; maybe even try that first. :cool:

    pigpen
  12. mtflat
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    mtflat Member

    kid,I had one stuck in a rusty 37 block that took some persuasion. Penetrating oil and tapping the body with a hammer over a period of time. Lots of patience over a couple of weeks. Hammered a putty knife under the 'foot' to get it started. The pump body has a contact band about 1" up by the idler gear and another 1/4" band down by the block flat. So oil both ends.

    bluthndr, can you rig some way to hook that shaft to a slide hammer?
  13. Digger_Dave
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    Digger_Dave Member

    With the exception of one engine that was used a boat anchor (for almost 20 years!; was after the 4" crank) I have never experienced this problem either!

    A couple were tight; (those that sat outside with the bottom end up) but some WD 40 and a "twisting" with a pipe wrench (gently!) they always came out.
  14. pigpen
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    pigpen Member

    A new thought. If you don't have a slide hammer, get a 1 1/2" ID piece of pipe, 2-3" long, and a large flat washer. After you have threaded the hole in the oil pump housing where the shaft came out, run a bolt through the washer, down the center of the pipe, and screw it into the broken housing. As you tighten the bolt, the housing will be pulled into the pipe. If that don't work you could drill down the center of the housing in increments until the wall is thin enough to break out with a chisel and hammer. Good luck and happy flatheadin'. :rolleyes:

    pigpen
  15. Bruce Lancaster
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    Let's just call the remnant a "plug", and move the discussion on to converting a flathead to dry sump...
  16. Flat Ernie
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    Flat Ernie Tech Editor

    I heard a 1/4 stick of dynamite works well....:D
  17. Digger_Dave
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    Digger_Dave Member

    Was doing some "bench racing" with a couple of other flathead "nuts" and the subject of DRY SUMPS came up.

    Anyone have details on how they have done it??
  18. bluthndr
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    bluthndr Member

    I'm liking the remnant/dry sump idea Bruce!

    Seriously though, I think my MIG, slide hammer, and torch will have to make a team effort at it. It looks like "just" the contact area near the gear is what's hung up - everthing else is already on the floor. I can move the shaft and gear up & down probably 1/4". Maybe I can drive it back down just to get movement? When I look in with a flashlight the sleeve/casting where it contacts the block almost looks like it is rusted in place.

    My pump chunk and the studs are "all" that is left before I can take it to the shake & bake. Tried heat & stud puller & parafin on the studs tonight, and succeeded only in breaking one off flush with the block, and being defied by about 10 others before I quit for the night... I'm thinking maybe start nuts on all of them, MIG them to the studs, heat 'em up around the base, and impact them out... Lord knows I need the practice with my welding!

    Compared to these studs and the oil pump, the cam & valvetrain were cake!
  19. Bruce Lancaster
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    Mebbe weld a length of pipe to the remnant of the shaft and make that into a slide hammer. Also, could you punch the remnant UP a bit? As you say, any movement would be good.
    When you get to the studs, don't let anyone tap the holes (Unless they are totally trashed). Cleanem with brushes only, as the threads are a class three fit and a normal tap will remove metal that's supposed to be there. I always wondered why studs were so wobbly after I "fixed" the threads until I learned this...many of them have already been loosened up in their past, perhaps by me, but these engines have a thindeck and threads with decades of damage, so don't remove any metal there!
  20. Bruce Lancaster
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    I've seen dry sumps on flatheads mentioned in early magazines, but have never seen any details.
    The flathead oil system is virtually identical to that of an early SBC minus the extra galleries that feed hydraulic lifters. Later SBC's have an added loop for semi-full flow filtering that is functionally identical to the easiest/commonest way to add a modern filter to a flathead.
    I'd guess that you would leave in the oil pump stump (Hey! You're half done with this job already!) and plug it. This part completes a gallery, just as a nearly identical feature on the base of an SBC distributor completes the same gallery there...now you can make either the common modern external row of pumps work, just hooking in at the back the way you would run the "in"
    line on a filter conversion..the pressure side could also be run by a complete stock pump with its pickup removed and the intake fed by a hose from the external scavenge pumps and stuff. Or you could tap the filter stump part and run the pressure hose in right there. Look in Smokey Yunick's book for info on dry sumping the Chevy--only real difference is that all that drilling and tapping moves from the filter pad area on the Chevy up to the back of the block where the flathead galleries emerge.
  21. bluthndr
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    bluthndr Member

    For anyone still following this, I got mine out by pounding the pump back down (up) into the block, and putting vise-grips on the shaft so I had something to pound on, then beating on the vise grips. Came right out after all that. Of course, consider that this was after soaking in PB Blaster for over a month and being heat cycled 3 or 4 times...

    Thanks for everyone's help!
  22. Bruce Lancaster
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    Bruce Lancaster
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  23. bluthndr
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    bluthndr Member

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