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FLATHEAD Valve Seat Machine???

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Traditions Racing, Sep 20, 2011.

  1. Traditions Racing
    Joined: Sep 25, 2008
    Posts: 3,519

    Traditions Racing
    Member

    Looking for a Valve Seat/Guide machine. Any real Flathead machinist out there, what machine are you using for replacing seats on the Flathead? Brand and model of machine only please. I'm not looking for P.M.'s to buy your equipment, I want a starting point to research what's best for my shop's needs. Bruce Lancaster any advice? Thank you.
     
  2. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 239

    GOSFAST
    Member

    Look for a Winona PH-2000 and you'll be good to go!

    Actually had a couple of these until recently, sold one about a year or two back!

    It would need the gear box that fits on the top (for slower speeds) to do the seats on the flathead! Some of these older machines are missing this component! It's really a "universal" type machine.

    We still do a number of these "Flatties" and it's for this reason only that I decided to keep the last one I have here! The fully adjustable cradle supports the weight of the block easily!

    You may be able to find the adjustable seat (insert) cutters as well with the 7/16" arbors! Don't use any 3/8" arbors if possible, you'll have control issues!

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. You should be able to locate one of these machines for "peanuts", most have been replaced by newer, more efficient, units!
     
  3. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 19,512

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member

    I live in a low-tech world...1950's Snap on/Black and Decker stuff with the original pilot guide spindle for flatheads. Seat grinder and valve grinder. That guide part and the stones and such are still readily available.
    In a higher tech world, one might copper plate and press in the guides and use a common guide. That stuff is now probably off the map in the world of Serdis and such...
    Did my first flathead valve job as a teenager, using about $5 worth of JC Whitney hand tools (little 45 degree cutter that held emery paper, the olde rubber cup on a stick, etc.).
    I had no real contact with anyone competent or knowledgable, so I followed the instructions in a 1916 vintage fix your car book and those in Page's Model A book...I had no idea that anything like a proper seat grinder existed, and it didn't matter because I couldn't afford squat.
    Yes, it ran fine!
    The beauty of the old B&D is that they are common and affordable, so you can do your own seats and take your time.
    On a flathead that is close to stock, accuracy is going to be limited ultimately by the screwy guide setup. A race engine would have plated guides semi-permanently installed for a more modern approach.
     
  4. Traditions Racing
    Joined: Sep 25, 2008
    Posts: 3,519

    Traditions Racing
    Member

    Thank you Bruce, I'm with you on the low-tech valve seat "grinding". I'm primarily looking for suggestions for a good old MADE IN USA, machine to "replace" valve seats. The issue with a Flathead V8 is that the Seat/Guide machine must be able accomodate the actual weight and mass of the block, and not just the cylinder head as in a OHV engine. You also have to have enough travel in the vertical of the machines head stock. Proper gearing to allow a slow enough cutting speed is just as important as well. Once we get the old seats cut out, and new seats installed, then we can cut the angles with the old B&D stones if you like:D, Thank you again, TR.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
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  5. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 19,512

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member

    If sticking with stock or slight oversize...I think all the stock inserts I have encountered have been good with only light cuts! A flathead block would look pretty scary to something like a serdi, though...
    What sort of guides are you going to be using? That ends up being another controlling factor...and of course is a bit vague in a stocker. Using a plated press fit ends the vagueness there, and if it is nailed down against rotation the top of the guide can be utilized some in shaping the exit from bowls...
     
  6. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 239

    GOSFAST
    Member

    The Winona I mentioned above will do EVERY aspect of the procedures you will be needing done!

    It will allow the inserts to be installed, any size, stock or for large valves, it will allow machining for the o'size valves, it will be able to open the "throats", and with the correct cutters can finish the valve job easily!

    The totally adjustable cradle will allow for any minute leveling!

    This type head machine becomes mandatory to get the best job possible on the Flatheads! Newer style machines will not do one of these blocks, I know, I have one specific for heads only!

    You have the option of using "standard" pilots or the ones specific to the Flatheads. See some photos below!

    I have a shot of the cradle and speed-reducer for the machine and 2 actual Flathead pilots. I choose to not use the pilots as I use the original guides along with the conventional pilots! The "body" of the pilots come in plus and minus sizes".

    Without this type machine, being in business, you really cannot do seats in a reasonable time frame and make a profit! It WILL do a "dead-on" job all around! I use this machine only for the Flathead seats/valve work.

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. Here's a few shots of the head machine and the Flattie pilots!
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 19,512

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member

    How old is the thing?? I'm assuming that nothing modern has the capacity required!
    I suspect most modern machinests would be seriously taken aback by EVERYTHING about a flathead valve system!
     
  8. Traditions Racing
    Joined: Sep 25, 2008
    Posts: 3,519

    Traditions Racing
    Member

    No Serdi's here Bruce. That's exactly why I'm asking here on the forum, what is the preferred machine currently used. Quite honestly, I'm currently working on development of a new type of main cap/girdle arrangement. That's about as much as I can say at this point in time. When I need a mental break, I just start thinking/planning ahead. As you can imagine, there are so many deals right now with shops folding left and right. I dont want to purchase a machine that wont fit my future needs. My future purchase MUST have the capability to handle the Flathead V8 Ford engine. TR
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  9. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 239

    GOSFAST
    Member

    Hi Bruce, not many shops in my area can or want to do the Flatheads anymore. I've been doing them a very long time! This is why I decided to not sell this tool until I retire (which is coming close)!

    I bought that very machine (in the photo) from Winona brand new around 1974/1975. Don't recall the exact date, but it was new at the time!

    It's a highly versatile piece of equipment and serves me well still!

    Basically speaking it's really nothing more than a very large drill press.

    (Add) TR: it will go as low as 38 RPM. More than adequate for most machining including the seats (valve job).

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. I enjoy doing these Flatheads, and a few other "odd-balls". I have a "Nailhead" running in a Henry-J up in Mass. Back in 1993 I had been working with a close friend of mine on a "Tuned-Port" setup for the Flattie, he passed away before we worked it out! I had been doing 15 builds per year for him at the time, every one a Flathead!
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  10. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 19,512

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member

    Wow!

    and..."My future purchase MUST have the capability to handle the Flathead V8 Ford engine. TR "
    That sounds good...and the future may well BE the past, as modern production seems to be dropping new parts below the cost of decent machine work!
     
  11. Vandy
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 368

    Vandy
    Member
    from L.A. Ca

    This is the machine I use also, It will do just about anything. I thought I would mention that it uses any 375 - 3/8 based pilot so it can be used with B&D flathead pilots.
    I had a group of guys in the shop last year from I think Sweden & 2 of them had worked at the factory that built the machine for Winona, they handed me their camera & they gathered around it and I took a pic for them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
  12. titus
    Joined: Dec 6, 2003
    Posts: 4,614

    titus
    Member

    I have a tool that bolts onto the deck surface of the flathead block and cuts the block for a hardened seat, i used it a few times at work and when we closed i bought it, ill dig it out and take some pics

    you could basically use it on any block or head you can bolt it to.

    jeff
     
  13. Vandy
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 368

    Vandy
    Member
    from L.A. Ca

    There were at least 2 made, I think Quick Way made one but the KO Lee was the king in portable seat cutters. KO Lee is still around and you can get replacement parts still (as of 2 years ago) I have the master set with all the pilots, including most all the flatheads. I also have the optional power driver for it. It's labor intensive but will do a good job in the hands of someone who wants to take the time & is not in a rush.
    Van
     
  14. Engine Pro 5X
    Joined: Feb 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,186

    Engine Pro 5X
    Member

    Winona is my choice too. Pictures later >>>>.
     
  15. gary terhaar
    Joined: Jul 23, 2007
    Posts: 578

    gary terhaar
    Member
    from oakdale ny

    I use a kwickway model m seat installer,It mounts to the deck surface and uses a 3/8 or 1/2 inch drill.It reduces speed and sets depth of cutter and is a no brainer to use.
    I have also used it on vintage harley stuff with great results.
    A piolit that goes through the guide boss and locates in the lifter bore is a must for seat work,goodson still offers them but are a little pricy.
    If i am replacing a seat from over servicing or excessive pitting i try to tig weld the inner portion of the seat on the inside with a small bead and watch the seat fall out.then replace it with the same insert.
    Another fine tool for flathead work is a toleto hall seat refacer.
    By far the nicest finish i have ever seen with a stone.
    The kwickway seat tool used is around 700 to 800 depending on the amount of cutters it comes with.
    It uses standard seat cutters so you can use it with other equipment you may have.A big plus is all these tools can be used for in car servicing as well and are verry accurite in use.
    Hope this helps,Gary
     
  16. Traditions Racing
    Joined: Sep 25, 2008
    Posts: 3,519

    Traditions Racing
    Member

    I want to thank all you gentleman for the suggestions, information, and insight. All very much appreciated, any others, please feel free to chime in, thank you again, TR
     
  17. Uncledirty616
    Joined: Mar 28, 2012
    Posts: 453

    Uncledirty616
    Member

    I take it the Kwik way model 019 will NOT work then for flatheads?
     
  18. Pete1
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 1,392

    Pete1
    Member
    from Wa.

    We have a Winona.

    However, I do my race engines on a Serdi I have access to.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  19. GOSFAST
    Joined: Jul 4, 2006
    Posts: 239

    GOSFAST
    Member

    Stay away from the "019" head shop, not a real good item. Owned a new one back when, kept it for about 3 months and "offed" it! Replaced it with the Winona.

    I have a few more shots (below) of a Flathead 8BA block mounted on the Winona PH2000, one showing the finished machined section for the valve seat insert ready for pressing in place, and the other shows one finished valve seat!

    Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

    P.S. It's like I stated back on the original post, this particular machine is about as versatile as a machine can be! There are no new "dedicated" head machines that I know of that will handle the Flatheads! They may exist, but I don't know of any!
     

    Attached Files:

  20. henryj1951
    Joined: Sep 23, 2012
    Posts: 780

    henryj1951
    Member
    from USA



    this is the answer ^


    :cool:
     
  21. Uncledirty616
    Joined: Mar 28, 2012
    Posts: 453

    Uncledirty616
    Member

    I will be doing primarily older vintage stuff, flat heads, nail heads etc, but I also drag race a low ten second 56 Chevy Gasser. Will the winona handle my needs as far as a good valve job for high performance purposes?

    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  22. prpmmp
    Joined: Dec 12, 2011
    Posts: 469

    prpmmp
    Member

    X2- This is a very cool thread!! Its like being in a classroom that I enjoy being in!!Thanks!! Pete
     

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