Im thinking of building a dragster , using the 301ci motor out of my alterd. Question is , if u build a period correct frame, where do u get to test and tune it? being that it wont pass tech. i have an ahra track close by , is there a way that i could talk the track into letting me t&t? or am i wasting my time. any advice ? thanks, james
My question is why do you want to build something you know won't tech? If you are going to build something to look the part and be a wall hanger do it to the best of your ability but don't expect tech not to do their job.
That's a complex question you ask. I would suggest talking to tech at the track you're going to run, BEFORE building, but of course, in order to make it easy on themselves, they're going to tell you to build to the rules. Often a period cage will not be allowed at the regular test and tune or Friday night drags, but WILL be allowed by various nostalgia groups at their own events. Depends on the tech and the track too. How fast you gonna run? I've considered building a period type chassis and then updating it from there, (adding bars)so that it looks like an original that was modified for current rules, rather than a modern chassis with an old twist to it of course the there's always the "build what you want, screw the NHRA" route, but be prepared for the possible consequences.
question is... do u build a "wall hanger" or do u modernize it to pass tech ? kinda of a screwed up question huh? but modernizing a dragmaster style frame messes up the look.
i know the local chassis inspector , so im gona give him a call and show him some frame plans and see what we can come up with. i asked the question to see what u guys where doing. the car will be for vintage meets but would like to t&t it. how fast? no clue , but my alterd done low 12 with the 301 sbc , and it 2200 pounds..
I watched a blown alcohol 377 FED, 180ish wheelbase, do a 7.30/ 186 last night. I'd want the whole "birdcage" doing that. 10's-12's I could live with an "updated" oldie.
This is the guy who has the real ultimate power to say yes or no to your whole deal. Clear it with him and get him to check it out a number of times during the build and you'll be fine. I would never build a car that wouldn't pass the highest safety regulations, both for safety itself and so that I could run it whereever I want to. Anything less is yard art, and besides, if you want a car that won't pass tech, just buy one, they aren't hard to find.
My solution to this was to build a modern SFI cage under a partial body, ala Comp Coupes. I was willing to compromise (plus i love the Comp Coupe look), but I understand why you may not want to. It's just another option that no one had mentioned.
You know, I have toyed with the ideal of building a tire smoker early dragster. Our car is a legal NHRA 6.0 tagged car. I am well aware of what is legal and what is not. Our chassis had to have a lot of work to be legal. Ours will tag quicker but it's cheaper to advanced et it cause the cert is good for 3 yrs. Pro tag is 1, This chassis was a SPE car about a 1967. It was originally 165 in WB. It's now 225 in. Some tracks might let you make exhibition passes (NHRA), but it will still have to pass tech. And they may only let you make short squirts. But I must say, I know these cars can hurt you right off the line. I don't blame anyone for not letting a car thats not tagged or an unlicensed driver go down the track. Don't get me wrong fellas, I love these old cars as much or more than anybody, But they will hurt you if you turn your back for a second. When you run your car are you going to be satisfied smoking the tires for a couple feet and running a 100 ft pass? I don't think so, you'll want to wring it out! It's in our blood. Build a safe race car, or a cackle car. The romance around these cars is wonderful, but the days of smoking the tires for a 1,000 ft and running 200 in a car with a three point cage are gone. And so are a lot of our friends who did it. JMO. Lippy
This is the very reason why my avitar is becoming a street legal hot rod. After the NHRA made me see the fallicy of going fast in a 35-40 year old cage with 35-40 year old technology. Sure, I could have updated the cage. Would it look like a '60's altered? No. Sure I could have built a new chassis that would pass tech. Would it look like a '60's altered? No. But I can keep the paint job, and build into the project some of the flavor of a '60's drag car, and probably have more fun on the street than I ever did on the track.
If the inspector fellow uses NHRA chassis specs (and I expect he does) NOTHING you build with late 50's through early 70's design will pass....period. Why not? Current specs require at least a 5 point cage, helmet bars, kidney bars, are the biggest components that the early chassis will not have. Add to that a fire system and 5 point belts. The photo is of my '69 Woody chassis that's under the Fiat. It has had a new 5 point cage added with helmet bars, and kidney bars. It still has the basic look of the original 3 point cage, and with the body on, it mostly disappears. There are many local tracks in every part of the country, mostly 1/8 mile, that are not NHRA sanctioned. Most will allow vintage rails to make exhibition (single car) passes. Any NHRA sanctioned track will require any rail to meet current specs to keep their liability insurance which the get from NHRA.
we just went threw this discussion with local NHRA tech guys on the Lyndwoods we run. NHRA tech told my buddy bob he could run his original 130" 1960 lyndwood chassis "as is" as long as he had the proper fire suit,helmet,5 way harness + needed essentials for running a blower on his set up down to 10.0 sec his rail is the green blown 392. If I were building a modern re-creation I would base it on an original chassis but follow modern NHRA tubing specs for wall thickness's and pay attention to kidney bars & such ( alot of the old chassis lacked support in the rear frame area around the driver particularly in the kidney area) I would also advise adding a cross tube on a TE-440/448 style chassis over the top but be carefull not to create a jungle jim of tubing that would inpeede you from exiting the rail in a hurry. the te-440 pictured is a modern re-creation based on an original but made with all new tubes and some extra tubes added for saftey. there's no reason you can't build a historically correct looking rail + be safe and have fun. I'd be more confident running a new piped rail that looked old then a found vinatage rail with questionable (wall thickness-stress cracks-fatigue ect) 50+ year old pipe. always think of safety before looking "cool". Paul
I like this question very close to home.. Your gonna need to find an out of the way place,,and some tracks should let you run it.. To call it a wall hanger is just asinine,,your building it cause its what you want ,period end...kinda erks me all these folks who bash old stuff with the upgrade this and that song and dance..you will find places to race and enjoy it,,just not as much as if it were NHRA "approved" Build it as you would any SAFE car,,just know that you may be limited to where you can run. 1961 Changes with a higher roll cage are great safety changes and will not affect the look of and older car.. Look on the Lyndwood group ,,there is a car there a fella added a small extra roll cage piece to run and it was fine. I think it very odd that all these "Nostalgia Drags" have few if any "real" old original cars,,its old bodies with all new stuff,,there should be more places for teh real old cars to run,,im sure insurance plays into this alot.
What consequences? So you can't run on an NHRA sanctioned track. You race outlaw. Ok for the most part the NHRA has a pretty damned good saftey rules. I'm good with most if not all of them. Will you look totally trad well no but you may just end up not looking totally trad longer than the other way. Some of the rules are just fence laws, made to cover their but from a lawsuit. Can you build a totally trad chassis and have it be safe, only of totally trad includes not cutting any damned corners, the rules were made to protect the dummys. Anyway getting back to it for test and tune you may be able to rent the track but I doubt that also; I think they have to conform to the rules to maintain their sanction. So race outlaw, that's your option if you don't want to abide by the rules of the sanctioning body. There are plenty of outlaw tracks still around. look around and find one.
I really like your approach Mike. In the 60's your car would have been a true dual purpose drag-street roadster. Your plan to emphasize the STREET aspect is a great way to keep the flair of a drag car with the usefulness of a street roadster. Keep in mind, Dean Lowe's '29 RPU was a street driven NHRA record holder in '62. Paul makes a very valid point about using new pipe. Little Wing danced around trying to buy several original cars before deciding to build a old style car with new pipe. The tubing is the cheapest part of the whole project. Many an old frame can look good with a coat of paint on the outside, but corrosion has probably been working in the inside of the tubing for 50 years. Heaven only knows how much of the wall is long gone.
Yes, sort of. It's new pipe replicating Joe's original twin. It scared him (Joe) so bad he parked it VERY soon after completing it. I'm not sure who cloned the chassis, but EJ Kowalski did a ton of assemble and detail work to bring it to it's current state.
I want everyone here to know, I am not bashing anyones car, ideals, nuthin! I am not advocating NHRA, or endorsing anyone else. I'm just saying make it safe. For you in the car and everyone around you. If you screw up, the spectators will just say WOW, did you see that wreck? Then they get in the car and go home. You on the other hand may not. If you want to run 1/8th mile, exhibition, whatever fine! Just be safe thats all. Most of the spectators out there don't know the difference between a safe cage and one that isn't, the rest of us will know why you made it that way. We will run outlaw tracks because I can't find a place for another fire bottle!! BS rule.
just to make things clear..... saftey is a must.. i dont want to get myself KILLED. but theres a reason that we are all into vintage cars. id like to build a te 448 style frame, with the right tubing, and if i could add a few roll bars to make it safer without changing the whole look of the car , that would be graet. is that what has been done with this car? what do u guy think tech would say about this cage?
well looking at it with that top bar looks like it would have 6 points ? and maybe running all teh way to the main tubes may aslo double as another safety part . I actually like that modification,,, Thought I have heard you can't run those Magnesium wheels in NHRA so ,,hmmm See now with that,,blending in safety features with an old design would be great,,
Lippy: The romance around these cars is wonderful, but the days of smoking the tires for a 1,000 ft and running 200 in a car with a three point cage are gone. And so are a lot of our friends who did it. JMO. Exactly the point. Most of the "stupid bullshit modern rules" (my words) are written in blood. Think real carefully before you stuff a strong motor into a car that won't pass tech. Despite the "cool" of it all, it isn't a very clever idea.
I'd say no. As it is there are no helmet bars and probably the kidney (side) bars are marginal. I think a Lyndwood style frame could be strengthened in the kidney area, but still pretty open around the drivers head. Kerry Dragmaster style frame comes closest to being true to the early 60's design, AND twin roll hoops were an option. There is a fellow who produced them for under $4000 in the mid-west. I'll bet someone here knows how to contact him.
See the thing that gets me is,,I see all these shows and events ,,letting trashed ratrod POS and some not so safe looking hot rods, make passes with these guys just wearing a helmet yet something designed to race they get all uppity about,,or is it the speed that makes teh difference ? I mean come on Pauls car seems light years safer than some of the crap at these shows and these don't seem any "safer" <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sbKqNadZghk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sbKqNadZghk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
I couldn't say till it's (God forbid) upside down on the retaining wall sliding. It's like any car in a wreck, you don't know what it's gonna do. I can sit here all day and pick that cage apart, but, Imagine the concrete guard wall , the car is upside down and sliding on top of it and the top of the wall is right there between the top of the cage and the slicks. Now the steering wheel is right there. where are your arms (even with restraints, and you surely remembered to cross your arms and tuck them in real quick while you were attempting to steer it right?) when this is happening. Your head is low and behind the top and front tubing right? So...oh I forgot, the roll cage sides were a little thin on wall thickness so they collapsed, UH OH... see, overbuild it tubing wise, your not going after low E.T. anyway. I'm not chicken to drive that car, just hesitant to drive it when things go bad. A monkey can drive a dragster when things go right. When they go very wrong, no one can. Pauls cars are fine, he knows what to do and what he shouldn't with them I'm sure. No car is completely safe, but c'mon. Back in the day, they didn't know better as far as cages and stuff, hell everyone was running them. You asked. Lippy
i sure did..... ok , lets see if we can simpifly this.... Can we (as a group) design a vintage looking dragster to run on todays tracks. anyone what to try. i know there more exsperance here than anywhere else. and with the vintage type drag meets getting more and more popular there going to be more cars showing up. the Hamb drag got me hook , raced my t-bucket first then built my alterd out of spare parts just for the drags . it is an addiction,,, that for sure...
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