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Technical Custom building a 4-53 Street Blower

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by BadBlownMotor, May 18, 2009.

  1. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    For New Readers Of This Thread:

    I want to let all of you new comers to this thread that the blower unit featured here is actually a 6v53 long bore and not a 4-53 short bore. Sorry for the misinformation. However, the information should prove useful to all 53 series Detroit Diesel blowers.

    Thanks, BadBlownMotor


    Hi guys. I just thought I would share this custom build of a 6v53 blower. I was originally going to put this on a SBC. I'm now thinking even more vintage. How about putting this on a 1955 291 Desoto Hemi? All parts are designed and machined by me.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  2. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Here's another picture of the new billet aluminum rotors being CNC milled. The photo immediately below is showing the rotor shaft holes being bored. The last photo shows the rotor contour being machined. The rotor profile was digitized on a CMM and then imported and tweaked in SurfCAM.


    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  3. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Here is another photo of the new rotors.

    The rotor bores will now accept new 4150 moly steel shafts at a 25mm diameter thru the rotors and 22mm at each end for the bearings. The shoulders at each end will help eliminate rotor shaft walk. There will be a ground thrust washer at the rear which locks the shafts to inner race of the rear bearing for added insurance.

    The rotors are still a bit heavy at the moment. I will be taking some more meat out of the lightening holes...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  4. death trap man
    Joined: Apr 20, 2009
    Posts: 145

    death trap man
    Member
    from Atco NJ

    I dig it! Home made blowers for everyone!
     
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  5. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Thanks for the enthusiasm, Death Trap Man. Most people wounldn't consider the 4-53 blower as being worthy because of the amount of fab work involved. I decided to do it anyways because I have the knowledge and access to the machinery and tooling. I also like the fact that it is a low profile unit like the Weiand and B&M units, but at a much cheaper cost than actually using either of those. Also, it will be totally custom and built for a 291 Desoto Hemi complete with intake and old v-belt drive system. How nostalgic is that?

    I plan on overdriving the 4-53 to about 40 or 50 percent. This should yield about 6 to 8 psi of boost, hopefully. That should be plenty for the little 291 Desoto.

    I am keeping detailed records of this build, which will include drawings, CNC code, parts and materials lists for anyone that is interested in tackling a build like this. I will keep you posted in the future here.

    Here are some pictures of a fixture I built to check the clearances of both the old and new rotors.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2009
  6. 'Mo
    Joined: Sep 26, 2007
    Posts: 2,027

    'Mo
    Member

    LOL My favorite post ever!:D

    BadBlownMotor, you have my utmost respect. Good luck, and please keep us posted.
     
  7. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Thanks Mo. I will try to keep you posted on the progress...

    Just a little tech info:

    This build is going to be composed of mostly new parts other than the 6v53's original case and gears. I don't want to go over-board on the build. Just to make a new case would require a lot of time and money.
    However, a billet case would be awsome though!

    I just simply checked the case and gears for any defects that could cause a catastrophic failure. This requires cleaning and sand blasting of the parts.

    The 6v53's Case:

    A visual inspection was made to check for warpage, cracks, and bad porousity. Except for some minor porousity, I found the case to be in exellent condition. I then proceeded to check the case for square and
    parallel. The front and back were less than .001 of inch parallel to each other and square to the bottom. The top was out about .0025 thousandths of inch out of square to the bottom. The top doesn't have to be absolutely square because that's where the carberator plate will be going. So, the .0025 out of square is acceptable.

    After the case passed all my inspections, I redrilled and tapped all mounting holes to accept stainless re-coil thread inserts. This proceedure does a couple of things. Firstly, it provides a more durable threaded hole for future rebuilds. Secondly, it provides a certain amount of thread strength for the fasteners going into the holes. No thread corrosion here either! In fact, almost all of the parts (both new and reconditioned) that require screws or bolts have these inserts installed in them.

    The alignment dowels in the case for the bearing plates where resized to fit a standard 3/8 dowel as a press fit. They were actually an odd size of .370 inch prior to doing this. I will be using pull type dowels for this application.

    I carefully ported both the inlet and outlet side of the case. This porting of the holes allows the unit to flow slightly better than stock. The porting also squares and matches the holes as well. If you plan to build a unit like this yourself, becareful not to over do it with the porting. If you go past the center-line of your rotors towards the sides of the case, you will actually decrease the swept volume per revolution of the blower. We don't want that do we?

    The Gears:

    Since the gears were in perfect condition, I just cleaned and re-black oxided them to like new condition. I may have to open up or change the mounting holes on the driven gear to accept the new drive coupler later.

    Here's a font view of the case showing the bores:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  8. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    I will be resuming work on this project at the end of next week...:)

    I will be finishing the front and rear bearing plates, which will require drilling, tapping, and reaming the mounting holes for the carberator plate and the intake manifold. I plan to make two different carberator plates; one for single carb, and the other for dual carb.

    I will also be rough turning and O.D. grinding the rotor shafts so I can get them shipped out for splining for the gears.

    The rotors still need some attention. I still have to lighten them up a bit and machine the pin holes which will lock the rotors to the shafts. I plan to use dual 5/16 locking pins with a #10 alloy flat-head screw and thread locking compound to do the job on each rotor. (I will provide a photo later once this is done.)

    After this point, all of the critical stuff will be finished. I will be machining the front cover which will accept a pressure relief valve, sight glass for oil fill level, and an "off the shelf" snout and drive assembly. The snout will be determined once I have a completed intake manifold ready for the 291 Desoto.
     
  9. captainjunk#2
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 3,905

    captainjunk#2
    Member

    unbelievable , some awesome work there , making rotors very coool more photos , and show the blower on the hemi when it s done ,
     
  10. Harry Bergeron
    Joined: Feb 10, 2009
    Posts: 347

    Harry Bergeron
    Member
    from SoCal

    What CMM did you use?
    What would it usually cost to CCM these and get the numbers in CNC format?
     
  11. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    The CMM that was used is made by Kemco. It was rebuilt, updated, and calibrated by CMM Technology, Inc. (www.cmmtechnology.com)

    I'm not sure about cost because it was done in the shop where I work for free. I can get a ball park quote if you want it.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Harry Bergeron
    Joined: Feb 10, 2009
    Posts: 347

    Harry Bergeron
    Member
    from SoCal

    Those are amazing machines, but I've never had any clue about what it costs to use one.

    I'm looking to CMM a 1/18 scale model car so I can blow it up to 1/4 scale or full scale on a CNC wood router.

    Thanks, I'd love to know what it costs to capture the numbers.
     
  13. Goldchainer$$$
    Joined: Jul 22, 2007
    Posts: 293

    Goldchainer$$$
    Member
    from L.A.

    WOW, You got skills to pay the BILLS.
     
  14. donut29
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,505

    donut29
    Member
    from canton MI

    WOW that looks good



    where in MI are you? I'm in canton and I'm looking to have some machine work done if you do stuff off hours
     
  15. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Depending on the size of the part in question, you may have to break up your CNC files into chunks. This all depends on the level of detail in the geometry and how much memory your CNC machine has to store the G-Code. You will also need to know what the tool sizes are in both length and diameter. Of course, a lot of this can be determined in the CAD/CAM software.

    We predominately use SurfCAM to output the required code in our shop. The problem is that SurfCAM will generate point to point moves across a surface in the XZ or YZ plane, which can generate a lot of code. It doesn't make use of subroutining. Sometimes that's a good thing and sometime it's not. Simple but repetative geometry definitely benefits from making use of subroutines. You can repeat a block X amount of times without really running out of CNC memory that way. Complex parts require breaking up the code in most cases unless memory isn't a factor.

    In my case with the rotors, I just needed all of the line/arc points along the profile. The profile was sampled on the CMM in 1 mm increments. The data was then imported into SurfCAM. Three layers were created; 0-Iges layer (Original CMM Coordinates), 1-Profile layer (YZ point to point), and 2-Arc layer (YZ line/arc thru all points). After careful comparision of the 3 layers and a bit of tweaking, the third layer was choosen to generate the G-Code.

    Based on that data in the third layer, a 3/8 4-flute ball nose endmill was choosen for the cutting tool. In order to generate the appropriate line/arc code, I outputted the code in the XY plane (because SurfCAM uses point to point in the XZ or YZ planes). This gave me the code in G0, G1, G2, and G3 format with cutter compensation for the 3/8 cutter. I just flipped the axis to YZ on the CNC machine before entering the code in the editor.

    Here is a sample of the code:

    Code:
     
    ; ICN_PATH = c:\intercon\4-53-A.icn 
    ; --- Header --- 
    N0001 ; CNC code generated by Intercon v1.21 
    ; Description: 4-53 Billet Rotor Contour 
    ; Programmer: Dan J. & Bruce W. 
    ; Date: 8-April-2009 
    M25 G49 ; Goto Z home, cancel tool length offset 
    G17 G40 ; Setup for XY plane, no cutter comp 
    G20 ; inch measurements 
    G80 ; Cancel canned cycles 
    G90 ; absolute positioning 
    G98 ; canned cycle initial point return 
    ; --- Comment --- 
    N0002 ; Short Bore 120 CID Version 
    ; --- Comment --- 
    N0003 ; .375 Ball Nose Cutter Comp 
    ; --- Comment --- 
    N0004 ; Figured Center Line 
    ; --- Comment --- 
    N0005 ; .015 Inch Step Over 
    ; --- Tool #1 --- 
    ;Tool Diameter = 0.3750 Spindle Speed = 3000 
    ; 
    G49 H0 M25 
    G0 X0.0 Y-2.4375 
    N0006 T1 M6 
    S3000 M3 
    M8 
    G4 P2.00 ; pause for dwell 
    G43 D1 
    ; --- Rapid --- 
    N0007 X0.0 Y-2.4375 Z-0.8576 H1 
    ; --- Line --- 
    N0008 G1 X0.0 Y-2.36 Z-0.7704 F75.0 
    ; --- Arc CCW --- 
    N0009 G3 G19 X0.0 Y-2.3279 Z-0.5465 J-7.3362 K1.166 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0010 G2 X0.0 Y-2.2749 Z-0.4049 J0.3759 K-0.06 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0011 X0.0 Y-1.2542 Z0.1735 J1.3095 K-1.121 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0012 X0.0 Y-0.7689 Z0.1468 J0.1802 K-1.149 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0013 X0.0 Y-0.511 Z0.0197 J-0.1951 K-0.7212 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0014 X0.0 Y-0.4267 Z-0.0718 J-0.2399 K-0.3056 
    ; --- Arc CCW --- 
    N0015 G3 X0.0 Y-0.3041 Z-0.1238 J0.115 K0.1007 
    ; --- Line --- 
    N0016 G1 X0.0 Y0.3041 
    ; --- Arc CCW --- 
    N0017 G3 X0.0 Y0.4267 Z-0.0718 J0.0076 K0.1527 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0018 G2 X0.0 Y0.511 Z0.0197 J0.3242 K-0.2141 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0019 X0.0 Y0.7689 Z0.1468 J0.453 K-0.5941 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0020 X0.0 Y1.2542 Z0.1735 J0.3051 K-1.1223 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0021 X0.0 Y2.2749 Z-0.4049 J-0.2888 K-1.6994 
    ; --- Arc CW --- 
    N0022 X0.0 Y2.3279 Z-0.5465 J-0.3229 K-0.2016 
    ; --- Arc CCW --- 
    N0023 G3 X0.0 Y2.36 Z-0.7704 J7.3683 K0.9421 
    ; --- Line --- 
    N0024 G1 X0.0 Y2.4374 Z-0.8576
    
    This code was entered into a CNC machine with Centroid controls using the Intercon editor/compiler. Some modifications will be required to make it work with other controls. This code represents only one pass along the contour on the YZ axis and not the entire surface along the X-axis.

    BTW, I'm from the Oxford area. I would consider doing some side work possibly.
     
  16. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Sorry Harry, I still need to ask the boys in the inspection room about how much they would charge for a CMM job. They were in a meeting this morning...

    This is just a little more about the CMM to CNC process for anyone who is interested in this sort of stuff:


    This photo shows the Line/Arc layer of the rotor profile taken from Rhino 3D. (This is actually an older file version where zero is at the back edge.)
    [​IMG]


    This photo shows a 3D view of the rotor profile on the CNC controls.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Hello again. I just finished up rough turning the new rotor shafts and lightened up the new rotors this morning. I weighed both the rotors and the shafts together. They are over 2 lbs. less in combined weight than the original stock rotors and shafts. Very Nice! Stronger and heavier dutier parts that are lighter than stock. You can beat that! Now all I need to do is O.D. grind the shafts and machine the pin holes into the rotors...

    Unfortunately, I will have to put this project on hold for a few weeks. I will be resuming normal working hours. In the mean time, I have to start figuring out the intake manifold. I already have a couple of ideas in mind. I will try to post some stuff about the manifold whenever I get a chance later on.

    Here is yet some more photos for everyone to druel over...

    New 4150 Moly Steel Shafts: (Note the bearing diameters at each end.)

    [​IMG]


    A view of the end a rotor:

    [​IMG]


    Another look at the rotors:

    [​IMG]


    To Harry: I check with my shop about CMMing. 60$ to 100$ an hour depending on the size and complexity of the job.
     
  18. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Last night I went over and took a look at the 291 Desoto at my friends place (know here as FalconBob). I wanted to get a good look at what I was dealing with when I get ready to design and fab a custom blower intake for the 6v53.

    [​IMG]

    I told him that we need to get the distributer or at least one to use as a mock up. I have to know how much clearance is needed when designing the manifold. I also took a good look at how the heads were ported for both the intake and the cooling system. All this is very critical for the design. He has an original 4-barrel intake that I will use to study the flow of the cooling in and out of the heads. NO, that intake is not for sale at the moment! Please don't ask...

    [​IMG]

    Since he didn't have a set of gaskets to use as a template, we just made a crude one out of masking tape and cardboard for now. I also did some measurements on the heads to double check how we did. Not bad. I will make one flange based on what we found and test it out on the heads to see if we got it right.

    [​IMG]

    That's all for now. Stay tuned for more on this custom build later...
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  19. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    I am open to any suggestions, comments, or technical specifications on the blower intake. I know there are others that either built one or are in the process of building one here. So, please feel free to post any information that could help me with the intake in this thread or leave a PM. In the mean time, I will be trying my hand at coming up with a good design.
     
  20. Harry Bergeron
    Joined: Feb 10, 2009
    Posts: 347

    Harry Bergeron
    Member
    from SoCal

    Hey, thanks, any idea how much time they spent on your rotor?
     
  21. claymore
    Joined: Feb 21, 2009
    Posts: 897

    claymore
    BANNED

    Nice build it is a pleasure to see good workmanship in a unique project.
     
  22. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    @ Harry:

    I believe it took less than an hour to setup, digitize, and export the coordinates from the CMM. We spent a couple of hours manipulating the geometry in SurfCAM before exporting any code. I then took the exported code from SurfCam and created a new CNC program from that to check all of our work. Several test pieces were made from the program on the CNC; the first one was made from plastic; two more from aluminum. The first aluminum part was done on one side. This was a piece to check from and to experiment with surface finishes. The Second part was completed on both sides and had a slip-fit hole which could slide over the orginal rotor shaft to get an actual side by side comparision of new vs old.

    The program:

    I took the original SurfCAM file, which was exported as line/arc in the XY plane with 3/8 cutter comp, and entered it into the Centroid CNC controls using the Intercon editor/compiler for use in the YZ plane with a 3/8 ballnose cutter. I entered all the lines as point-to-point, and all the arcs as end-point-and-radius. The tool path was created so that the shaft bore is the center line of the contour.

    The tool path:

    The tool path is made up of 4 segments. The first segment is the contour starting from the negative side of Y moving toward the positive side of Y. The second segment is the step over on X, which is either .030 for roughing or .015 for finishing. The third segement is the contour starting from the positive side of Y moving toward the negative side of Y. The fourth segment is yet another step over on X (.030 for rough, or .015 for finish). After that, I just repeated the block as many times as needed to exceed the length of the finished rotor.

    Once I had all the numbers, creating the g-code was simple. Your case would be a little different. A complete CMM digitizing would be required to capture all the points. This would probably include proto-typing as well. All of that would take more time and more money.


    @ Claymore:

    Thanks.
     
  23. doctorZ
    Joined: Apr 10, 2006
    Posts: 1,243

    doctorZ
    Member

    holy crap ... and to think i was proud because i made my own motor mounts!
     
  24. Harry Bergeron
    Joined: Feb 10, 2009
    Posts: 347

    Harry Bergeron
    Member
    from SoCal

    "I believe it took less than an hour to setup, digitize, and export the coordinates from the CMM. We spent a couple of hours manipulating the geometry in SurfCAM before exporting any code. I then took the exported code from SurfCam and created a new CNC program from that to check all of our work."

    Sounds like the time and money is in the expert software wrangling. Beautiful, close-tolerance work, congrats.
     
  25. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Yes, most of the time was spent on post work after digitizing for the rotors. Although a CMM can measure very accurately, I took no chance in having error that's why I made the tests pieces to check against. Kind of like having an insurance policy. Better to double check it with redundancy than having your actual part in the scrap bin.

    The original parts where not perfect either. They are mass produced pieces. They were most likely done on a duplicater or possibly a shaper mill. It looks to be most likely the later. A custom ground cutter was probably used to cut the entire profile. There was a very slight amount of asymmetry in the profile. They corrected this by flipping one rotor 180 degrees so that opposite lob profiles would mesh during the original assembly of the unit. We corrected this in the software which made all profiles fit and match with perfect symmetry.
     
  26. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    I just thought of something else for those who may wonder. The issue with a having completely balanced rotor assembly.

    The answer to that question is there should be no balancing required with the new parts. The reason for this is because of the new billet material and perfect symmetry on center-line. So, both lobs of each rotor should be effectively weight matched in the percision machining.

    The original rotors had to be spin balanced because they were originally made of a cast material. Casting defects and uneven material density was and issue which had to be addressed with in the balancing of the parts.


    I am currently still in the process of designing the intake manifold. We now have a mock up distributor to work with. I have to take a few more measurements and I will be off to the computer to draw up a design. Since this blower is a low profile unit, I'm going to make the manifold height as short as possible. Stealthiness is the theme for this project even though it's not exactly required for our use.
     
  27. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    I know a lot of you guys here are probably wondering how my progress with this build is going. All I can says is be patient. I'm using the next couple of weeks to design the intake for the 4-53 blower while I'm back to full time hours at work. I don't know when I will have machine time available. I may have to schedule a couple of Saturdays in the future for that.

    As I said before, we do have a distributer to use for mock up. I talked to FalconBob this evening. He says he has a couple of carburetors he thinks we can rebuild and use on the motor. I think I will make another trip over to his house to get some more measurements possibly tommorrow.


    Some more tech info:

    I had a conversation with a fellow employee about the seals wearing a groove into the rotor shafts. He suggested that on a future rebuild of the blower I should have the rotors ceramic coated and reground in the area where the seals meet the shaft. Since the ceramic coating is much harder than the steel, it will hold up far longer and the seals will most likely wear out before the ceramic coating would.

    You would basically cut a groove into the shaft in the area where the seals meet the rotor shaft. I believe its something like .020 to .040 or so in depth. You would have to send the shafts out for ceramic coat at this point, and then a careful regrinding would be needed.

    This is the sort of proceedure that is used on a lot of industrial machinery to minimize the rebuilding cost. A nice idea that I thought I would share with you fellow Hambers. Of course, you need to have access to the proper equipment and contacts to do this, but you could also suggest this to a shop who is doing the work for you. Better to be armed with a little knowledge before hand than going in blindly.
     
  28. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    Hi everyone. I haven't posted anything for a while. I thought I would give you some news.

    We are currently working on a model of the intake manifold made out of MDF. The model is to make sure that our dimensions are correct before we build the actual intake. I will try to post some pictures of it when its finished. I'm sure there will be a few changes along the way before there is a final prototype.

    We will probably use a SBC thermostat for this intake to save room.

    I've also decided to go ahead and make the snout instead of purchasing and modifying one. This will significantly reduce the cost. I will make it after that intake has been completed and the blower is assembled. Once everything is in place, it shouldn't be a problem of determining the required snout length.

    After Falcon Bob did some checking with a "gear head" friend of his, he thinks we should get about 425+ hp out of the build with this blower. This depends on the CR and how much boost we actually make.

    I think a stock 291 was about 200 hp. With the right cam specs, head work, and carbs, we should get at least 300 hp or more before the blower.
     
  29. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,363

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Cool! and I need a 3-71 snout.....
     
  30. BadBlownMotor
    Joined: Mar 25, 2009
    Posts: 109

    BadBlownMotor
    Member
    from Michigan

    What motor are you planning to use with your 3-71?

    I would need to know the rotor drive gear size (the coupler for the drive gear has to be sized so it does not interfere with the drive gear teeth or the front cover and snout), the snout flange size where it mounts to the front cover, the snout length, input shaft diameter, and pulley size. I also need to know all of the bolt sizes and patterns for each part.

    How fast will you be turning your blower? A correct bearing spec must be determined for the max dynamic load and limiting speed rating. Heavier is better, but lighter is not to ensure good bearing life.
     

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