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Hot Rods chassis guys what do you think?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Fortress, Mar 8, 2015.

  1. That sucks.
    I just finished boxing my frame. Doing finishing bodywork and paint (on the frame) and even with my time and parts is less than $5,000. And it's a roller.
     
  2. LOL I remember about 7 years ago anyone on here that lost their job as a printer technician thought that they should be opening a hot rod shop. :eek: :D

    Personally I would have billed the whole thing one price agreed upon before I started and whatever time it took me to do it would have been what it took me. I don't see more then a grand billable there plus materials. so maybe 1500 total give or take a bit for the P&J stuff. I would have a hard time charging more then retail from P&J for the pieces and if Jerry cut me a deal I couldn't not pass that on without hurting my conscience. But maybe that is why I am poor. :D I normally sleep well though.
     
  3. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,264

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    15-years ago I lost my job as an computer network engineer/architect.

    I ran my stop for a decade, until injury and medical debt consumed me. Worked for others for the remainder.

    You cannot always judge a man until you know his whole story.
     
  4. Not judging at all, I just know that there are a helluva lot of those guys putting out crap like this chassis. You my friend are a minority you and I both know that.
     
    54fierro and volvobrynk like this.
  5. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member

    Honestly I would have quoted a little more than you beaner , probably 2-ish + parts ... done ready to bolt on car ...but I think I would just said go new , most people aren't ok with patches and twists... Especially not like that
     
  6. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member

    And your right if they wanted to learn from this project ... One agreed price and work on it till its done and functional ..... That's the price of education... The next one , they make money on what they learned on the first , but judging from the work they aren't to good in the brains department

    .... Ray Charles could see that rear suspension won't work!
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  7. IF 85 hrs were billed
    AND the bare chassis were complete, finished and CORRECT (which it is not) 85 hrs is too long and $6000.00 would still be way too much money.

    Perhaps if it the job scope were complete, the chassis built correctly, painted, fully assembled, and the body mounted back on then there'd be a fair and reasonable aspect here.

    The case here is something else entirely. That chassis is not correct! It's tough to say exactly how far off it is but anyone familiar with this type of suspension can see just by the limited pics that the rear spring mounts on the rear axle are off, too narrow by at least 8" but it maybe 10" or more. Can see that The rear hangers are also too short when measured center line of spring to centerline of axle, and as such the rear cross member's spring perch is both too high and too far forward over the differential.

    All that from looking at pictures, and not one guy working in a "hot rod chassis shop" can figure that out?

    With that info in mind, and giving the shop every benefit of every doubt- I can't help but wonder how many of those 85 hrs were spent trying to figure out how that was going to work. Its obvious that fortress was charged for the education process here, and that is just unfair. I picture someone not familiar with this and not knowing the parts need modified, I picture them measuring and mocking everywhich way but loose for days just Trying to get this to fit while the billable hours just tick away.

    So not only did it take too long to do, its completely incorrect and needs to be redone, yet it was charged for. Who ever was doing the work here was completely unfamiliar with this style of suspension.

    There's just no defense for what's happened here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  8. Sorry ya got shafted by a ''shop''. Pulled my car out of one a few years back as soon as I realized the owner was gonna let me twist in the wind.
    Stop kicking yourself, nowhere to move but forward.
     
    Fortress likes this.
  9. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 5,377

    indyjps
    Member

    I'll never agree to an open checkbook. If the shop can't write down the plan, on an invoice, before they start, I go somewhere else.
    Fault lies with the owner too, how often did you check on the work, did you write an agreement before work started on how much you would spend and at what point they should call you for authorization to continue spending your money.
    it's now you word against theirs, they claim 70 hours of work, if you dispute it, they can place a lein on the car, they have your vin.
     
  10. The primary issue is that the chassis is incorrect.
    No matter the cost or hours or weeks it has been, any agreements made or mot made, regardless of paperwork or contract law - its wrong!

    The Secondary issue is the hours spent produced no fruit. The dollar amount (rate x time in hours) is not congruent in either quality or quantity of work based on industry standards.


    A Correction of both of those issues is needed.

    Most logically and easily is to establish is a Hourly rate that coincides with everything what was done for those 85.00 hours (more in the neighborhood of $12.00 an hour or about $1,000 )

    or an adjustment of billable hours to complete only the things done correctly. (More in the neighborhood of 14 hours x $70 or about $1000.00)

    I'm a bit confused here, were the 4 hours quoted to remove the body and crossmember included in those 85 hours or is there another 4 someplace for a total of 89 hours ?

    If the total is 89 I may change the info posted above.
     
    Fortress likes this.
  11. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,560

    mike bowling
    Member

    Looks like a case of what my old boss used to call "learn while you earn"- an education paid for by the customer. Bad business for sure (monkey business at best).
     
    Fortress and volvobrynk like this.
  12. B1gDaddy
    Joined: Aug 30, 2007
    Posts: 292

    B1gDaddy
    Member
    from aladambama

    Who is the shop? if they gonna charge like that, and do shitty work, call em out!
     
  13. Fortress
    Joined: Sep 8, 2009
    Posts: 243

    Fortress
    Member

    I know I put too much trust in the shop. It is a fault of mine to trust people too much. They invoice each week for labor and I paid weekly with a check. After the first week I talked to the owner about how long it was taking. After the second week I told them to just get it to a point where I could get it out of the shop. I paid these bills because I know there was some fault on my end.

    When I questioned the amount of time the shop owner got defensive and said, "no shop could do the work any faster than his tech". The point of this thread is for me to get more opinions from those with more knowledge and experience than me. As others have pointed out not only did it take too long, things were done incorrectly.
     
  14. "no shop could do the work any faster than his tech".

    Even if this was a true and a 100% verifiable statement with undisputed truth, tests and measuring of time trials, he still got it wrong.

    Travel 100 miles at 100 miles an hour in the wrong direction and it's 2 hours and 200 miles waisted just to get you back to the original starting point. But Travel 34 miles a hour in the right direction and you'll be there in less time cheaper, faster, and easier than the first.

    Fortress, would you have a problem paying the guy to get on google for 2 mins to find a picture of how it's supposed to look? Probably not I'd guess, even though they are supposed to know. That's how long it took. Maybe A clue would help the fastest tech.

    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
     
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  15. Fortress
    Joined: Sep 8, 2009
    Posts: 243

    Fortress
    Member

    Here is the billing directly copy and pasted from the invoices. It is more hours than I quoted because I pulled hours out that were not related to the chassis work. The firewall patch they made was nice although I'm not exactly sure why they needed it. They made a 90 degree piece of sheet metal to repair where the floor had separated from the rocker panel (fiberglass car). Its a poorly made POS that is pointless in my mind. The floor simply needs to be re bonded to the rocker. Also the shop rate was $75 and after I complained the first week they dropped to $70. They worked 4 days a week 10 hours each.


    1 E01 Labor Week Of 02-02-2015 37.0T UD1
    2 E01 2/9 Remove front fenders, Running
    boards, Brake and fuel
    3 E01 lines, seat, wheels, eletrical, fuel tank,
    rear fenders,
    4 E01 trunk panels, and steering. Separate
    Body from frame.
    5 E01 Document with photos along the way. Weld in brace for frame
    6 E01 and front suspension. Cut off front supspension and body
    7 E01 Mounts
    8 E01 2/10 completed cutting off mounts. Remove suspension, weld
    9 E01 on additional bracing. Check frame for square. Mount frame
    10 E01 on rotissery. Torch welds from frame, grind and sand. Cut
    11 E01 fender supports from frame. Repair with welded in steel,
    12 E01 frame under old suspension. Grind down welds from previous
    13 E01 boxing, straighten and prep for rewelding. Remove plastic
    14 E01 filler from from frame rails.
    15 E01 2/11 continue to clean up frame welds, remove rear suspensio
    16 E01 leaf spring and shackle brackets. Remove exhaust hangers,
    17 E01 Fill Excess Bolt Holes in frame
    18 E01 straighten small dents in lower frame rail, re-weld motor
    19 E01 mounts, re-weld frame boxing, repair torn metal around drive
    20 E01 side shackle mount, grind old paint and rust from inside
    21 E01 frame rails.
    22 E01 2/12 Weld front boxing of frame. Reinforced body where
    23 E01 seperated at trans tunnel and firewall
    24 E01 weld brace tie to inner Body
    25 E01 structure. Remove fuse block and interior panels and
    26 E01 carpet for access.

    Estimate Totals Discount $ Markup $ Rate $ Total Hours Total $

    Labor, User Defined Type 1 75.00 37.0 2,775.00

    2/16 Fabricated reinforcements for floor and firewall
    4 E01 Install firewall re-inforcements
    5 E01 Mark suspension and X member locating, and cut out old X
    6 E01 Member
    7 E01 Cut out rust thru on drivers side rear frame and weld in
    8 E01 Patch
    9 E01 Removed more plastic filler from from, exposing more rust
    10 E01 thru.
    11 E01 2/17 Continue to remove rusted frame material and replace
    12 E01 with new steel.
    13 E01 Re-check for square and remove temporary bracing for frame
    14 E01 patching
    15 E01 Tack in x memeber and cut out frame boxing for front spring
    16 E01 mount installation.
    17 E01 2/18 Continued with removal of previous boxing for cross
    18 E01 member/ rad support install
    19 E01 Shime frame, tacked weld in crossmember
    20 E01 Mock up front axle, spring 4-link, shocks
    21 E01 Position streering box bracket, cut off old streering shaft
    22 E01 mount, grind welds
    23 E01 2/19 Drill holes in frame and install bushings for front
    24 E01 suspension. Mock up remaining front suspension
    25 E01 componants.
    26 E01 Trim and install rear springs and mockup rear perch.
    27 E01 Add additional bracing before rmoving rear perch spring.

    Estimate Totals Discount $ Markup $ Rate $ Total Hours Total $

    Labor, User Defined Type 1 70.00 40.0 2,800.00


    1 E01 Hours for week of 2/23 15.5 UD1
    2 E01 2/23 Relocated spring shackles to outside
    3 E01 weld fillers into pie, cut in rear spring mount
    4 E01 assemble front end for rolling only.
    5 E01 grind and finsih rear leaf mount
    6 E01 cut off bracing interfering with body rear mount
    7 E01 re-brace where possible
    8 E01 Spray epoxy over bare metal areas
    9 E01 remove mockup axle tube.
    10 E01 2/26 Install rear end housing..TACK WELD ONLY ** 4-link
    11 E01 and spring mounts.

    Estimate Totals Discount $ Markup $ Rate $ Total Hours Total $

    Labor, User Defined Type 1 70.00 15.5 1,085.00

    Subtotal 1,085.00


    3/2 7.2 UD1
    2 E01 Install 3rd member and axle/brake seals and gaskets
    3 E01 remove 3rd member allign splines to posi
    4 E01 hone axle housing to accomadate bearing clearance
    5 E01 assemble axles, removed slack adjuster to faciliatae brake
    6 E01 clearance
    7 E01 tack weld steering box support to frame, loose install of
    8 E01 drag link, pitman arm, vega steering box.
    9 E01 install wheels moved rolling frame to floor.
    10 E01 Sublet Pickup vehicle with trailer 1 150.00 Other
    11 E01 Sublet Deliver vehicle with trailer 1 150.00 Other
    12 E01 Materials used in frame boxing, mockups, firewall and floor
    13 E01 reinforcements, see attched list 1 200.00 Other

    Estimate Totals Discount $ Markup $ Rate $ Total Hours Total $

    Parts 200.00

    Sublet/Miscellaneous 300.00

    Labor, User Defined Type 1 70.00 7.2 504.00

    Subtotal
    1004.00
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  16. enjenjo
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 2,689

    enjenjo
    Member
    from swanton oh

    I just finished a 34 Ford chassis, all new suspension at both ends, and new Xmember, done with the body on per owner so it took longer to do. I had 47 hours in the job, and drove it out the door.

    That said, I have had cars come in for a 10 hour job, that ended up getting 10 times that, because the further I went, the more problems I found. So I work only time and materials, but you can pull your car out any time you want.
     
  17. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    I read the whole thread on the whole car, loved the ride!
    I read this thread on the frame, and hate it.

    I dislike what you started with, and I hate what you got. That guy ain't worth the money you paid an hour, but the price you paid for the whole frame is above the value of said frame.

    The guy isn't good enough! The question is what to do now. The best would be if you some of the money back for the sub standard work, at least.

    And ask a HAMBer to do the work! Or a Guy a that HAMB(s) says good for.

    There was some issues, and some of them may be fixed, some may be broke in another way.

    Is there a HAMBer in your area that can give you a quote to fix it, with specs, put 5% on top and bring to Shop 1, and make him do the work the HAMBer specified, at the same price or pay the HAMBer to do it!

    This might mean you have to eat some of the bill, but it might get a good frame that cost a little too much, but if you had a good frame you could run, life would be better!
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  18. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 1,591

    birdman1
    Member

    I do not build rods for a living, but have done a few restorations. I always tell the guy, you can go buy a completed running car for less money, and you know what it looks like. tearing out old junk and making it look new is very time consuming. Do like I did, Build it yourself!! can't feel sorry for a guy that does not get a written estimate of a job like that. Go cry to someone else!
     
  19. I think that what happens with some guys especially guys that have never been taken to the cleaners before is that they would not cheat anyone and so they don't expect to be cheated by anyone. It is an idealistic view of the world but it is common.

    Some of us have adopted a basic rule keep your word always, but it is not common in the world that we live in. Someone way more intelligent then I said it this "Caveat emptor" and I think that just because we believe that everyone should keep their word we should all probably still adopt this attitude about business.
     
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  20. Fortress
    Joined: Sep 8, 2009
    Posts: 243

    Fortress
    Member

    Didn't mean to cry, but I needed help assessing the situation. I can see my mental estimates for the hours required to do this work were accurate based on what most are saying.

    I did research the shops reputation and didn't find anything bad, including on the hamb. I also obviously misjudged the character of the shop owner.

    I'd be happy if the shop would just supply me with a replacement frame at no cost.

    Thanks to everyone for your opinions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  21. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    DONT ever giving you self a hard time about being a good guy, and misjudge a stranger with a good rep!!!!!!!!!

    I feel the same way as you, about misjudge your fellow man.
    It might be that it's not the shop owner you misjudged! It might be one of his employees. He might have the same level of regret at you!

    Try talking to him about how you move on!
    Don't give him more money.
    And try prove that's it's wrong, appose to just go head to head with the guy, because someone you know on WWW says he is wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
    porknbeaner, Texas57 and Fortress like this.
  22. 1: Maybe you didn't find anything bad because everyone else that got taken was also not willing to name names.

    2: Don't hold your breath on a freebie, specially if he thinks he was fair.
     
  23. Fortress,

    Don't mind birdman1, he just likes to point and bitch...

    It happens to most/all of us at some point, in fact Birdman1 was warning in an earlier thread that he didn't do enough homework on some POS tool he bought and got screwed over.

    I believe that getting "taken" on a project may be one of the top reasons projects are abandoned. I second volvobrynk's recommendation take your time find a local shop, talk to some previous customers, to take a fresh look at it and start there.
     
    Fortress likes this.
  24. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member

    Hey everybody .... look we found an ASSHOLE!
     
    gimpyshotrods and Fortress like this.
  25. We are all safe now.
    My Grandpa used to say that "everyplace you go, there will be an asshole. If you can't find them, ( the asshole) then you need to leave because you're it".
     
  26. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member

    If the shop has no intention to make it right , I would file small claims case and , buy a new frame , pull off all of those parts , get going on your project...

    I'm a mean fucker though I would take pics and buy advertisement pages in theMSRA linechaser , (that's where most their biz is from) and tell your story ... I would make sure that 6 k they ROBBED from you costs them 10 fold in business ... Bad news travels fast... You can put a substantial dent in their income if you want to... Id try my best to bring them to their knees if they decide not to make it right...

    Trailer that frame to every swap and show with a sign that says , this is what I got at .... Shop for 6k ... Park next to them when you can... Could be a fun summer you can be a thorn in their side if you want to .... They will have to answer lots of questions with potential customers

    I'd want my money back... Not more work... They obviously arnt capable ..
     
    Fortress likes this.
  27. And I didnt even need a mirror, a flashlight and both my hands like everyone said I would.
     
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  28. Your callous attitude is completely uncalled for!:rolleyes:

    It's a crying shame that stuff like this happens when we rely on someone to provide us with a quality service and what we get in return is poor work at what apparently is at a extravagant price,then a fellow hamber takes it on himself to rub salt in the wound.

    I don't understand some people. HRP
     
  29. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,560

    mike bowling
    Member

    I think in something like the pastime we all enjoy, where LOTS of money gets tossed around, a lot of bottom feeders tend to show up and take advantage of the unaware.I've heard some real horror stories regarding crooked fabrication joints, auto body shops ( yes I know it's hard to believe!), and even the sacred ground of the Flea Markets being desecrated by those on the bottom layer of human evolution.As said a million times"Buyer BEWARE"- kinda sucks to have to do that, but an honest businessman won't be offended by it. Like Don Corleone said " It's not personal, it's business." Sorry you've got some people taking cheap shots at you when you're down- it doesn't represent 99.9% of the people on here .I also think anyone who says they've never been hosed (at least to some degree) is full of crap! Everyone gets to wear the Pointed Hat! Keep your head up, and forge on.Good Luck.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
    Fortress likes this.
  30. Well now we are in trouble. Unless of course all the women in the world die off in which case we are in there like swim wear.

    Oh did I just say that or think it. :oops::confused:
     

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