Technical Bonneville in a Traditional Coupe!?! (SCTA)

Ok, so I get that this thread is kind of an oxymoron in and of itself; to be SCTA legal, you're going to have to be pretty darned "untraditional", but has anybody on here successfully petitioned the SCTA to allow a removable halo, diagonal bar, etc, so that a Model A Coupe or other similarly small 30's auto can still function as a street car while not on the salt?

If you're not in the know, and reading this thread, since the SCTA rules it's classes to the current record, you've got to build pretty much a dedicated racer to play with them at Speedweek. In a Model A Coupe, that means there's not much more than the minimal amount of room for a single seat, and the complex "funny car"-esque roll cage that the SCTA now requires.

I understand that safety rules are "written in blood", and I'm not trying to skirt them; I just don't have the money to build a hot rod AND a dedicated race car, and I'm not stoked on the idea of having to pick one or the other...after all, that's not really what this hobby is all about.

Anyway, what I mean to say is, please save the lectures for somebody who is less thoughtful than myself, and if you know how to think outside the box, I welcome your comments. I'd love to see some ideas! If you've actually figured this conundrum out, I'll buy you a drink (or several), because you're basically going to be my new best friend.

Thanks as always HAMB'ers!!!

 

I should also note that I am familiar with the USFRA 130mph and 150mph clubs that are run at World of Speed, and while I plan to start there (and maybe finish there if I can't figure my way around the SCTA's safety requirements), I've talked to enough salt racers to know that once you get the bug, you're never going to stop...at least not until you run out of budget...and maybe not even then. That said, I'd rather build the car to SCTA spec now, and then go run with the USFRA, knowing that the car has the bones to carry me as far as my pocket book will allow.

 

yep, things are a lot different than in the early days of Bonneville. but, alot more walk away now.

 

I was delighted to see such a logical post about running at Bonneville. You see so many come in with the "its my ass. I'll take the chance." The SCTA guard their safety record jealously. The USFRA 130 club is the logical place to start. The warnings you have received about once you start its hard to stop are true. The first year I went the salt was wet and literally got everywhere. As we left I told my wife if I never saw "this hole" again I wouldn't miss it. I've been going back every year since. And looking forward to this year. The best of luck and I sure hope you make the leap.

 

Hey Casey, I'll give you as much perspective and help as I can. The whole 'FlatCad' crew got together in 2010 with no Bonneville experience and managed to get a car built and thru tech inspection the first go - with just a couple small things to fix (very minor). As nobody on the team had raced SCTA events before, we were quite pleased that we actually made it through tech as "easy" as we did. This is not to say it is "easy" - the rules are very strict, safety is everything and I'm damn glad that SCTA and the whole Bonneville gang care about my ass - probably more than I would if left to my own devices. Every single technical specification in the rule book is there - due to an accident, death or situation that preceded it. Our safety at Bonneville is probably as good as anyplace in motorsports - and the volunteers that come every year and get us down the track are wonderfully talented, detail oriented and dedicated folks.

Okay - enough of the lead-in . . . to get more specific.

There is no reason that you couldn't design a car to compete at Bonneville and also be able to take it back home and put it on the street. With that said, it will take a lot of careful planning and compromises as far as a typical 'traditional' hotrod go to make it viable. Most every safety requirement can be done in a way that is pleasing to the eye, meets the requirements of Bonneville and won't be an eyesore when you get back home. BUT - it will take a lot of work and it is hard to do this the very first time you build a car for Bonneville - as you have no experience to fall back on. And believe me - there is a LOT to learn as you get a car built, have it inspected, run it a few years and constantly improve it.

Ideas to think about:

1) It is possible to design a compliant roll-cage that can be put in/out of the car. Yes, it is a lot of work in that all the junction/mounting points have to meet the technical specs and careful design/planning work will need to be done to make it possible. It will absolutely require the right amount of structural fabrication/support for mount points - so when you're not using them, they will be noticeable if one looks under the frame.

2) Safety Systems: There are a variety of safety systems that you probably won't keep around for the street - like all the fire control lines, bottles, activation mechanisms, etc.. This could be designed to be taken in/out of the car - just have to plan it.

3) Scatter-shield, fuel/oil line protection in the plane of the flywheel or blower hub area: The scatter shield requirements are perfectly fine for the street - they just make sense (along with the SFI compliant parts!). There are also structural steel tubes that must be used to protect critical lines in the flywheel and front of the motor areas. They are designed to protect the driver in the event of a clutch explosion or other failure. The single biggest concern for most of us at Bonneville is FIRE - so there are a LOT of requirements to first of all prevent flammable liquid lines from being ruptured and secondly to put out any possible fire that starts. All of the structural aspects of these requirements are sound and actually make sense for any street car - we're just not used to doing them!

4) Complex Fuel, Engine Management and Data Collection Systems: Most of us have a TON of electrical wiring, sensors, computers, data loggers, etc.. The vast majority of these are not needed for the street, but are invaluable for understanding what your engine and systems are doing. You could design the system and wiring to be "plug and play" - will take careful planning and really expert wiring system designs to make it easy to remove/replace these systems for the street. In a race car you DON'T hide these systems as you want them easily accessible for problem solving, configuration, etc -- so we purposely have them easy to get too . . . usually where the 'passenger' would normally ride.

5) Oiling Systems: When you get more advanced, you'll probably be running dry-sump oil systems --> with all the necessary lines, coolers, tanks, pumps, etc.. There are not that many street cars that run this stuff - though there is nothing wrong with having them. The biggest challenge is that once again, we want these systems to be easy to get to and work on -- again, they're typically in the passenger area. So - as you get more advanced, you could design these systems to be plug and play - but again, a lot of planning, work and design has to go into it.

6) Parachute: Can easily make this something to take off - probably don't want it coming open on the San Diego freeway . . . plus you'd look like a dork having it on the car.

7) Cooling: Depending on what type of class you're running, your cooling systems can get very complex. We have big tanks for ice-water to circulate through our intercooler and also a quite complex engine cooling system that uses a heat exchanger in an ice-water bath in the trunk of our coupe. We do not have a radiator - as we have no air coming through the front of the car. In our case, it would be a nightmare to make our car "streetable" - but in many other cars and associated "street type" classes, one could get away with traditional radiators and associated systems.

8) Being Competitive and Being Honest With Yourself: You have to consider that you might be stuck designing systems that are not really 100% race capable (as you want to put the car back on the street) - which will undoubtedly influence your speed and/or reliability and overall race competitiveness. You may not be competitive if you DON'T do what a lot of us do (build a 100% race car) - and even with that, the records are very difficult to obtain. BUT, having fun, getting a car down the track and having the experience is the best part of it anyway! If you truly want to be able to complete at the level to set records, then my position is that you'll rapidly be in the realm of building a 100% race car . . . and even then . . . it is damn hard!

So - I do believe I could build a car to do all of the above (in the lower speed classes) - it would take me twice as long and probably a lot more money . . . but it is definitely doable with the right level of planning, good design and the right components. Lastly, you'll probably be running in classes that aren't as wild as some of us - so the total amount of systems to move in/out of the car won't be quite as bad as I'm used to.

To get started: Buy the rule book, study the hell out of it and talk to racers and technical inspectors who have done the work. Then -> plan, plan, plan . . . design, design, design and validate the hell out of things - before you build it.

Best of luck,

B&S . . . part of the 'FlatCad Racing Team' . . . and Quest 200!

 

It's already been done this century... modern Bonneville... http://speedtalk.com/trips/salt_flats-03/

 

There is no flexibility in the rule interpretation. You can contact the senior tech for your class and he will respond via email. The petition process is a rule change and is very formal and must be done in the fall. As you live in California, I suggest you join one of the clubs in SCTA. It will give you access to current racers.

 

I'm just curios, but don't have anything but Qs, an no As at all but here goes;

Is there a lower class regarding safety, like 10 or slower in drag racing? Will one really need 800hp to race at bonneville?

Would it be possible to race a full house flathead with a simple cage, trans dieper and onboard fire system? True Burt Monroe style!

Can they be raced in a K-appendix/like set up. Over here most racing class track or rally, can run by a old rule book if car match era, and if they comply to that, they must also use era specific tunning, non EFI and turbo. But personal safety has to be per rule of any class, and cage and etc match speed.

 

USFRA has street classes that you can race in. I suggest you research on "Landracing.com" forum. That is a dedicated forum for what you are building.

 

You might talk to Keith Cornell of the Rolling Bones, he drove his coupe out there in 2011 and ran a very respectable 165 on a 265 record. You can get around building for the record by just getting a cert for a lower speed. The tech guys are no dummies, you show up with a car that is built noticeably slower than a record breaker and you can have it certified for a slower speed. Say 175. You wont be permitted to go over 150 on a rookie run anyway.
As long as you just want to drive out and make a pass I think you can build the car, will it be easy? Of course not! Will you get a record, depends on the class you run. XF/GCC is sitting at 156.701 right now. How good of a Flathead can you build.

 

Or... get some really smart folks together who share your interests, write your own really safe but practical rule book and then race on the salt, mud, sand or even pavement with your own organization / sanctioning / insurance. I could be mistaken, but I think there are lots of "world records" out there have been set under non-SCTA sanctioning bodies - well before and even after the SCTA existed even. What do you need to set a record? A set of calibrated timers and some group to supervise and "notarize" the records? How about the Guinness folks? Or Timex? The Naval Observatory? But IMHO, the down side, would be to take all the fun out of it. Imagine taking something like the Race of Gentleman and making it an actual race. Gads. Later, Gary.

 

Keith Cornell and crew did it as Tim said. Thacker and Shine did it a lil faster, there have been others. We have fun running Tims pickup and it could be considered "streetable"

 

Record or not, it's a great time. Like Bill said earlier you may hat it when you leave the first time but a week later you will be planning the next trip and figuring how to go faster.

 

Thank you very much! That was my aim. There have been several threads on the HAMB about this subject (in essence), and if you took the response to those as gospel, you'd feel pretty discourage about actually getting to the salt. I figured I'd try to come at this as logically and thoughtfully as possible, and look, folks are already posting some GREAT information. Thanks again!

Speaking of great information, thank you to B&S. I need to dedicate some time to my response to your post. I have some questions, so hang on for that, please.

97, that's a great link. I just skimmed it, but will read it more thoroughly later.

Unfortunately I'm squarely in the Northern part of Northern California, and this is a really big state. It'd make going to club meetings and performing club duties kind of tricky. I'd say we could form a NCTA, but everybody'd probably be too stoned to watch the timers.

My suggestion to you would be to Google USFRA (Utah Salt Flats Racing Assoc), and read about the rules for 130mph and 150mph clubs. They will let you do this, in a sense. Safety requirements in those classes are still "modern", but not nearly as strict as what one would have to do to race with the SCTA.

Also, it seems to be the norm on any site, that when asking about SCTA rules, you should have at least a modest understanding of their rule book first. These guys are constantly on about how they don't like to repeat themselves...I don't think it's that per se, especially considering some of these post counts, but it's more about showing a basic respect for that sanctioning bodies safety record, and not asking someone to disseminate information that's readily available in their rule book.

 

Thanks for your post. Is Keith on this board? My understanding from lurking at landracing.com and reading my 2011 copy of the SCTA Rulebook (I know I need a new one), is that you're not running if you aren't built to the rules, but I'd love to hear about Keith's experience, and more importantly see pictures of the car he took out there. I've searched this subject quite a bit, and the only thing I found out of Keith's visit was that "New SCTA class" thread over here and on the landracing site, and most of the feedback was less than enthusiastic about the increase in traffic at Speedweek. "Let them run WOS" seemed to be the sentiment...

See above post about NCTA...Hahaha! I don't know that I'd want to trust my butt to the rules my half of the state would come up with. Now, a HAMB sanctioning body...

 

Keith is a great guy and I am sure would answer your questions as would any of us that run. The car is the easy part. The logistics of living and racing on the moon for a few days is what the true learning curve is about.

 

I know what you mean. I helped a buddy running his 1953 Matchless G80CS in 2007. Being on the moon was also how I described it when I got back home. What a trip! I can't wait to get back there.

 

Well then, your are more well rounded than many!

 

In the end, it is all about the PEOPLE --> the team you work with, the folks you meet, the guy/gals putting it on and the whole experience. There is a class for just about any type of car and engine - so there are many types of cars you can build (at all different complexity and budget levels).

If you're really interested, get a committed group together, put a plan in place, discuss the "time and money" expectations and just make it happen - will probably take 2 years if the whole team is working toward the goal and you focus your efforts. Somebody will need to drive the team and make some of the hard decisions - as there will always be differences of opinions and arguments/conflict - just get through it. You'll have the time of your life and you'll definitely want to "do it again"! Heck, my 80 year old Mom came by herself from the Black Hills to race with us in 2013 - she had a ball!

This picture shows what it is truly all about . . . the team!


And somehow we actually built this thing and got it down the salt . . .




Take care
B&S

 

B&S, thank you so much for the insightful comments. You touched on a few things that I hadn't really thought of, and a few that I've been obsessing over. Other people's plans may vary, but rather than trying to chase a record, I am planning to challenge myself to go as fast as I can with as much "period" technology as I am able.

While records seem like they may be somewhat attainable in the vintage engine classes, I'm an absolute Chrysler Hemi fanatic! That said, my 354" Chrysler would be competing in a class where records are in the 250+mph range, and I don't imagine that I will ever have the budget to go that fast. 200mph would be a neat "someday" goal, but even that seems lofty.

Anyway, as far as complex engine management and data logging devices go, while I am sure they are incredibly helpful, they don't really seem to be in the spirit of my current goals, so I suppose that, right now anyway, those will be two less things to worry about. Really, truly, after reading pretty thoroughly through my SCTA rule book, the biggest hurdle that I will face in making my '30 Coupe do dual duty is the roll cage.

Two things stand out above all else in this particular combination of car and safety requirement; the relatively tight confines of a Model A Coupe body, and the complexity of the SCTA spec'd cage. The main hoop, shoulder bar, dash, firewall, and A-pillar hoops, door bars, etc could all be tucked nicely into a street Model A, and quite frankly, after driving my last Hemi powered car, I wouldn't mind the extra protection. My prime curiosity involves whether or not I can design a removable front (helmet) hoop section that will pass SCTA muster. That's the part of the cage design, coupled with the tiny Model A interior, that completely eliminates the ability to enter and exit the car easily on the street, and it would keep me from being able to throw another seat in the car for street driving. That's the part I'm hung up on, though again, let me reiterate, that I understand "why" it needs to be there on the salt.

So let me throw this out there. Has anyone ever seen one of the two of these style clamps being allowed by SCTA for removable cage sections?



I am not an engineer, so please don't blast me if these are both terribly unsound. The 4x4 and rock crawler guys seem to use them, and that is why I am asking. I know that anything that I come up with is going to need to be drawn up and sent in...I just don't want to get laughed at.

 

There's some really good advice here, Dan Warner is on here as well as Kiwi Tin Bender they both are involved with tech. inspections, they can give advice and can get you in touch with the right people. Good luck, Gary.....

 

You might also talk to these guys... http://jamiejohnsonshotrodhaven.com/index.html

Jamie and his dad built a street / salt phantom 39 RPU that has a removable cage. Gary

 

Almost forgot about TO. You can run "time only" and just get the car certified for a specific max speed. What extreme do you want to build to.

 

The Evil Salt Gods: There is another thing that I need to ask . . . how much do you like your car, your frame, your body, your chrome, your paint . . . the whole damn thing?

The above question may sound funny, but salt is a vicious ass beast! It gets into every single nook and cranny in the car, inside the frame, inside the doors, on all your electrical contacts, everyplace you would not think possible - it will be there. It is almost impossible to get all the salt out of one of these cars - so they do rust/corrode in all the places you can't get to. I know guys that when they get their race cars home, that they completely blow them apart - every single nut, bolt, washer, bracket, etc -- is removed, cleaned and lubricated. Even with all of this, there will be rust damage - it is a silent evil that is always working away on your car.

If you have a really nice car that you care a lot about - you want to really consider if you're ready to put it on the salt and let the 'Salt Gods' get their pound of flesh . . . cause they will. This would probably be my biggest reservation about a plan like yours -- unless you really decide to deal with it and blow the car 100% apart and take weeks cleaning it. Just plan for some rework . . . maybe replacing parts . . . maybe repainting things, etc..

Frankly, I wouldn't take a lot of my cars on the salt - due to the above. Hell, my Dodge pickup has rust-out in strange places and that was after I ran a sprinker system under it, laid on my back with a hose for hours, etc.. You just can't get the salt out of these things.

Building a fiberglass car with a stainless frame . . . seems about right!

Just wanted to let you know - as we all learn the salt lesson the hard way!

B&S

 

@crazycasey -

FYI ... Keith Cornell is @rollingbones 1 ... but doesn't frequent the H.A.M.B. as much as his partner Ken Schmidt (@ROLLING BONES 1A).

Several SCTA rulebook knowlegable folks are also HAMBers ... Perhaps @Dan Warner, @Beef Stew, @Dynoroom, @RichFox, @Kiwi Tinbender (or others I can't think of right now) will chime in.

I noticed in some of your previous posts / threads that you want to run your '30 Model A Coupe in the Vintage Gas Competition Coupe (VGCC) class ... and that you have (or had) two engines sitting in your garage: a '54-'55 Buick 264 Nailhead (OHV) V8 and a '51-'53 (extended bellhousing) 331 Chrysler HEMI (OHV) V8 ... NOTE: If you want to run in the VGCC class, you are limited to running a "Vintage Engine" as described in the SCTA's 2014 Speed Trials RULES and RECORDS updates:

​

 

Totally agree, and certainly why dry lake beds, stretches of open sand, old airports, long roads in Nevada or even portions of by-passed RT-66 (I do get great ideas now and then, don't I!) should be kept in full consideration, too. Gary

 

I can not speak for the SCTA-BNI. No one else here can either. But some have much experience running with them. What are your plans besides a model A coup? What engine? How fast? If the 150 club is to slow, count on the full safety requirements. That means a containment seat. Your head can't move more than 2 inches side to side. But you could bolt that in and out. Full door net. Hanns device and a fire suit. Fire bottles, fuel and electrical shut offs. Blow shield and drive shaft containment. Is your car channeled? Floor reinforcement. You might be able to use the Halo cage if your car is slow enough. Which is back to the 130 club. A 29 Ford coup that goes over at 125 is going to probably fall apart. You need lots of protection if anything happens. They are not going to change the rules for you. Contact the vintage coup chair as listed in the rule book for real answers on what you can get away with.

 

In addition to the Rolling Bones, Thacker-Shine, & other "street driven" Bonneville race car examples mentioned ...

(LSR Legend) Jerry Kugel's #265 C Blown Gas Modified Roadster (C/BGMR) is "street driven" ... and has run over 225 MPH at Bonneville.

The Kugel #265 C/BGMR in Street Trim


The Kugel #265 C/BGMR in Race Trim​

The Kugel #265 C/BGMR debuted at Speed Week in 2008 ... They drove the car to Wendover (~700 miles ... 17 MPG on 91-octane pump gas) ... Upon arriving at the salt, made a few alterations (changed tires & wheels, replaced the license plate with a parachute, added an IC tank to the passenger area, removed the windshield, & installed a tonneau cover) and Jerry made a "shakedown" run of 192 mph on the short course. Jerry's daughter (Jerilyn) later got her rookie license (@187 MPH) ... On its last run of the week, Jerry's son (Jeff) ran 201 MPH ... They put the car back to its "Street Trim" and drove the roadster back home (La Habra, CA).

In 2009, they drove to car back to the salt ... Jerilyn ran 215 MPH ... Jeff ran 221 MPH ... Jerry ran 225.470 MPH ... and then they drove the car back home.

Although its (Marcel's Custom Metal) "Muroc" hand formed steel Deuce roadster body, (Magnuson Supercharged) LS Chevy engine, Turbo 400 tranny, and (Kugel Komponents) Independent Front & Rear Suspension is far from being a "Traditional Hot Rod" ... it does prove that such a car can still be built (within the current SCTA rules) and run at B'ville & El Mirage.

NOTE: The current C/BGMR record is 254.574 MPH (set in 2009 by Frank Young in the "Purple Haze Express" roadster).

 

Sorry Pete! I didn't intend to insult your many years of experience! Thanks for the clarification.