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body work technical help!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by BadassBadger, May 5, 2012.

  1. BadassBadger
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    BadassBadger Member

    i need a bit of help! i just got my first shrinker disc and man does it work! well anyways i'm starting the body work on my 64 greenbrier and i decided to try out the shrinker on the bottom of the passenger door where i had pulled out some damage. when i had pulled it out with stud gun the panel was pretty level just small highs and lows still in it. long story short i used the shrinker disc which smoothed it all out really well except the whole panel is sucked in even the big body line...... how do i go about bringing it back out without useing the stud gun again? mind you there is NO access from the back! zip zero nadda none!

    i have attached photos

    Attached Files:

  2. Rusty O'Toole
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    Rusty O'Toole Member

    Bondo is your friend. Grind the paint off with an 80 grit disc, level the whole area with bondo, file with a surform and block sand with 80 grit on a speed board. When you have a smooth even surface block sand smooth with 120, 240, 400 and primer.
  3. BadassBadger
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    BadassBadger Member

    ......................................................>.>
    dude really.......i'm not going to put 5 inches of bondo in my door...........
  4. mixedupamx
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    mixedupamx Member

    you may have to create access. the rocker panel on my 70 AMX was deeply dented upwards as if someone had placed a bottle jack under itand crushed it, and had no access. to make matters worse the AMX rocker has a inner rib running through the center to reinforce the area which was where the dent was. no ammount of pulling with the studs would move the dent so I ended up drilling a 1" hole in the sill just above the dent and used a piece of rebar and a BFH to punch out the dent. once the metal was returing to its original shape it became alot easier to move. after it was straight I just welded a round patch back in the hole. looks like it never happened now.
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  5. happy hoppy
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    happy hoppy
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    no way around it, you need to pull or push it back into shape. start at one end of the low spot, pulling out just a part of the low area , then hit it with your disk to make it level rather then working the whole low spot at once to keep the heat down.
    it looks like it just got too hot and shrank on you.
    looking good.
  6. ebfabman
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    ebfabman Member

  7. BadassBadger
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    BadassBadger Member

    ok i guess it sounds like i will have to pull on it, but i'm concerned about the big body line there. how should i go about raising that back up with out making a bigger mess?
  8. falconsprint63
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    falconsprint63 Member

    I've not used a shrinking disc yet, but I'll reccomend practicing on something else first rather than trying to figure it out on something you actually give a crap about.
  9. riskybiz
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    riskybiz Member

    Take your stud gun and put a few studs on the body line. Pull on studs and using body hammer, tap high spots down ( works like dolly off). I hope you know what I mean, I have 38 yrs as a body tech. The low body line was created by to much heat from shrinking disk use. Sometimes it take as many as 20-30 studs to oull out a 6 inch dent. Most think they can do it with 3 studs and strech the metal more then what caused the dent.
  10. the metalsurgeon
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    the metalsurgeon Member

    Just what Mixed said,cut an access panel to gain access and using chasers on the inside of the outer skin push out the the panel on the style line.Take a profile from the other side before you begin.

    my weekly metal work blog,including 'chasers' www.themetalsurgeon.com
  11. BadassBadger
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    BadassBadger Member

    thank you metal surgeon i was hopin youd chime in
  12. chopolds
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    chopolds Member
    1. Kustom Painters

    Yes, it is MUCH better to cut out an inner structure, to be able to work the outer better, and easier. Just take care, use a thin cut off disc, and you'll be able to weld it back in and no one will know!
  13. Dustyoldbodyman
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    Dustyoldbodyman Member

    Or.... you can get out an oxy-acetelene torch (neutral flame) and heat the low spots.
    We are not shrinking here - just heating. let it it cool without quenching. Think about it... The heat from the torch makes the metal expand. I have pulled out hail dents and door dings with a torch on panels I am gonna paint anyway. Give it a try - even if you have already windowed the door inner panel.
  14. striper
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    striper
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    I suppose a key thing to remember too, is that the shrinking disc is not a smoothing disc. Only use it where you have stretched metal. It sounds like you may have shrunk everything back smooth / level with your lowest point.
  15. theHIGHLANDER
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    theHIGHLANDER Member

    Lots of good advice. If you can get some access by opening behind you can push right on that body reveal. Once you're pressured out, maybe a bit beyond finish level, you can hammer around it and relieve the stresses that are holding it in. If you push by hand with something you can feeel when it requires less effort and know you're going in the right direction. Good for you declining the "cave n pave" method. Any hack can do that.
  16. ebfabman
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    ebfabman Member

    Another option is make another skin for that door and replace it.
  17. the metalsurgeon
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    the metalsurgeon Member

    the profile goes in on the style line i believe ? if so i wouldn't personally choose the above.


    my weekly metal work blog www.themetalsurgeon.com
  18. SinisterSleds
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    SinisterSleds Member

    You over shrunk it. To add metal back in use a smooth slapper and dolly (or hammer and dolly) which will strech the metal adding body to the panel and allow it to push out to the shape you are going for. More heat and further shrinking the damage will only cause more problems.

    Use a dolly (make a dolly) that closely resembles the shape you are going for so you do not add shape you do not want. Check it often with the straight edge to make sure you are headed in the right direction.
  19. pimpin paint
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    pimpin paint Member

    Hey,

    I'd go, as directed above, with as many of the studs welded to the body line as is necessary to return this line to normal contour.

    But, some questions: how are the panel gaps at the door openings when the door in hung in its opening? If they are straight & true that's good, and you're only dealing with a damaged door skin. If the gaps are off, you've got a damaged door shell, and the repair becomes alittle more difficult.

    Once the body line is back to normal contour, use the stud gun to raise any additional lows above or below the body line. Whyle keeping the welded studs under tension, hammer the highs down to normal contour. Continue to use this method until 80-90 % of the panel is straight. Use the flat of your hand to check the panel, and compare it to the other undamaged door skin. Grind the panel with a 24 grit closed coat disc, and mud as necessary to finish off the repair.

    I don't think you have any where near enough damage to warrant cutting a trap door to access the back of the damage. A slide hammer or pull rods (welding up the holes after using) could also be used as well as a pry rod inserted in a drain hole in the bottom of the door shell to raise the damaged areas. There are many ways to repair this panel without welding up access hatches or punched holes:D

    " Humpty Dumpty was pushed ''
  20. 49ratfink
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    49ratfink Member

    the shrinking discs only heat the high spots so I cant really see how the disc did that if it was properly used.
  21. pimpin paint
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    pimpin paint Member

    Hey,

    The disc probably pulled the metal surrounding the high areas into an over shrunked state thus pulling the balance of the panel out of alignment:(

    " Meanwhyle, back aboard The Tainted Pork "
  22. fleet-master
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    fleet-master Member

    Golden rule is...1:Lines, 2:Edges,then 3: Middle.

    Get the lines right 1st, then make sure your edges are lining up good with anything else adjacent as required...then repair whatever damage is remaining in the panel.
    In your case OP..get the line straight by whatever method works for you (plenty to chose from above)..then fit and gap the door..then repair any remaining damage.
    Its not unusual to have a panel on n off a dozen times (now n then it can be done in place)during a repair...thats the bit most people never see!! ;)
  23. Rusty O'Toole
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    Rusty O'Toole Member

    OK... buy another door.
  24. BadassBadger
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    BadassBadger Member

    well i'm fucking pissed!!! i cut an access hole on the other side like told and pushed the panel up. well when i did that it totally fucked up the metal above the body line huge low and high to the point it nearly put a kink in it..........so i did the only thing i could think of...... a relief cut so i put 2 in it and got the panel decently close and welded it up but then the panel below puckered up so bad so i put more relief cuts in it and the the whole fucking thing sank down everywhere!!!
    i have no way of reproducing the panel so i guess i dont know.....use lots of fucking bondo.........
  25. fleet-master
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    fleet-master Member

    ok alls not lost...From what you've posted you may have shrunk the panel through your welding on it...can you post some more pics please and we may be able to steer you through to a point of just needing a light skim coat of bondo.
    The first thing is to get the line straight...if you straighten the flat part of the panel while leavin the line outta whack .,then come back and try to correct the line ,you'll upset all the work you've just achieved.
    1: lines 2: edges 3: middle ... its just how I was taught
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  26. striper
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    striper
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    Of all the good advice given here, not once did I read "then put a relief cut in it".

    You have over shrunk the metal...therefore you need to restretch the metal that you shrunk. Re-read above. There are several suggestions as to how you might achieve that.
  27. pimpin paint
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    pimpin paint Member

    Hoe boy!
    Put the cut off wheel down, and step back from the panel...................

    Relief cuts arn't often a great way to solve stretched metal in a repair, and often create more work than they solve! How did you weld up the cuts you made into the panel-squirt gun or torch welds? Any time you weld on a panel you'll have shrinkage, and you must hammer those weld beads flat to return the panel to its' correct shape. As you hammer the beads flat, with a hammer and dolly, you should see the panel return to its' semi-correct shape. DO NOT CUT ANY MORE RELIEF CUTS, and continue to shape the panel with on dolly hits to raise lows, and off dolly hits to lower the highs. If you need to shrink any areas that are high, do so only after you have straightened the body line, and it's reasonably straight and true across the panel.

    You can still save this panel and not have to resort to 1/2'' of mud to finish it. Jus' stay cool, work the body line out, straighten above and below it as necessary.

    " Life ain't no Disney movie "
  28. the metalsurgeon
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    the metalsurgeon Member

    no need for relief cuts,we re not draining anything from the panel are we? no need for cussing either?!

    my weekly metal work blog written in the Queens English with no drainage systems.www.themetalsurgeon.com
  29. hoof22
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    hoof22
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    I recall looking over some old AUTOBODY "apprenticeship program" books that I used to have from the 60's, and recall the section about "bumping" metal required a minimum of 1500 hours of hammer & dolly work, just to become "proficient"...not journeyman level, just "proficient". I can see why people get frustrated when things don't work out right off the bat, because it looks so dang easy in the video...Don't get frustrated, but use this as an opportunity to learn, so the next time you'll know just what to do,and maybe even be able to help out someone else in the same situation.

    My point is being good at metal work, body work, bumping, pick & file work, collision repair, whatever you want to call it, doesn't come overnight-it takes a dedication of hundreds of hours of practice, and hundreds of panels, wrecked and repaired, using all the methods described here to become proficient at metal work...Body repair requires more skills than just about any other trade - from engineering to metallurgy to chemistry to welding to sculpting to electrical to mechanical and more!

    Wish I was close by & could sit with you and talk about your problem and possible solutions. Although there's been some great ideas put forth, any one could be your solution, it's just impossible to give spot on advice from a couple pictures. My point is, you're not going to learn it overnight, so try not to get too frustrated, and don't give up, it's only metal, it CAN be fixed! Good luck!

    Eric
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  30. BadassBadger
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    BadassBadger Member

    sorry about the venting of frustration and i thank you all for your expert advice i just panicked and made stuff worse for my self. as screwed up as it is i will try to get it with in reason.......and if i have a parts van...... i will work on it now and update when i get it............better than it is now

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