Technical B-W overdrive, won't overdrive

So I got my R-10 Borg-Warner overdrive all wired up AND tested it before my first drive. The circuitry was correct, the relays clicked and solenoids engaged. So I take the car for a spin. Pull the cable, back off the gas and.......nothing! No drop in RPM's, however the tranny did freewheel. And I could shift without disengaging the clutch. So what went wrong? Or maybe I should ask what isn't working?

 

57, I am sorry I have no expertise in this subject but I do have a manual. The trouble shooting section is on page 15 I think .http://www.studebakerclubs.com/NorthGeorgia/Overdrive.pdf. I have a BW unit that I will be installing in my project but I haven't hooked anything up yet.

 

On my Merc I have to push in the cable to engage the overdrive, In is in, Out is out. Were you going at least 26 mph?

 

^^^ You are correct sir! I had it backward. Pushed in the cable and got nothing. I tested it going 40+ in town and later on the interstate at 60+.

 

did you clean the points on the governor?

 

Fuse Good? Cable adjusted properly?

 

Yes, yes, and yes.

After reading the above posted link to the shop manual, it appears that the solenoid is not engaging the blocker ring properly. There is a fix for this described in the text.

 

Is the end of the solenoid worn down to where it won't engage?

 

Can you hook the OD up to work thru a small MSD external coil electronic dist. Helped with a 55 Chevy with the later Saginaw OD and I'm not sure if it would hurt the dist. To ground it for a second while engaging the OD down shift.

 

Did you pedal the throttle, or even poke the clutch when you wanted it to engage? A BW OD won't engage unless the drive load is taken off of it. Of course if you have the engine cutout wired up, you shouldn't have to pedal it, but it might not hurt to try.

 

That cable adjustment for the overdrive lock-out is critical. There can't be any tension when pushed all the way in, must be all the way to the stop. If you've done everything X two it will be time to go back in and check the blocker ring tension, this is critical to engage od. Last thought, solenoid engaged properly (push into the keyhole and turn 90 degrees)? You can also divorce the governor out of the circuit to see if that is not working properly. I used my first od w/o the governor for 12-13 years, just used a switch.
Good luck, keep at it, it is sooo worth it.

 

It's tough to trouble shoot via a computer, be it a toaster or a Borg Warner overdrive.
Do your self a service and read the manual. If you understand what it is supposed to do & the sequence of events, it will become easy to fix.

 

Two things come to mind; when I was teaching the bride how to drive the OD car, she was not letting all the way off the gas. After a demonstration, she became a pro. Let off the gas until you feel a clunk. Then its in. If it is sticking in neutral, maybe the lube is old and sticky. When its warm, drain the trans, let it drain a long time. When you refill it, there are two places to put trans lube in. Fill the trans, and put a pint of ATF in the OD unit, then fill it full with 90 wt. The ATF will clean the sticky out.

 

Well the snow and freezing weather have finally left and I have had a chance to re-visit my OD problem.

I did notice that the lever on the OD unit did not go back against the stop. It was hitting the reverse shifter linkage and I had somehow overlooked this. Fixed the interference, but a test drive reveled that the problem wasn't solved.

Called Fifth Avenue Garage and got some ideas. One was to check for voltage drop at the solenoid. What voltage?!? I got nothing. So I pull the relay and it is fried. Since I made the harness myself, perhaps I had the wires hooked up wrong? Or the relay can't handle the amps?

So I am now in search for another relay. Any suggestions?

 

A relay is a relay, use a Bosch, relay problem solved. If you don't like the look of a modern relay in the engine compartment, use longer wires and zip tie it under the dash.

 

Sorry Cosmo49, but you can't just put ANY relay there. You need a continuous duty high current relay triggered by ground. I know they exist, but they're a lot more rare than typical headlight relays or horn relays.

57Heap, all you can do is replace the relay, wire it to spec, and test it again. Take the solenoid out and bench test it.
The original relay was fused, so if you cooked it, something was wired incorrectly and the fuse was bypassed/eliminated.

As far as testing for voltage drop: you need to see if the solenoid is getting the full voltage of the battery. Test battery voltage (write it down), and then test voltage at the supply to the relay. If there's less at the relay, that means you're suffering voltage losses from bad connections or a bad wire.

These are pretty hardy units so hang in there, you'll get it going.

 

You can use any cheap Radio Shack 30 amp relay. I did an old Desoto and concealed the new relay inside the cover of the original.

 

I've used the same 30amp relay for 14 years, then rebuilt a '69 3sp+od and have 2 years on a 'new' 30 amp relay, please Mike, don't tell me it can't be done, I'm a dd/ONLY vehicle.

A 30 amp relay isn't "...any relay", so I would say you are correct.

 

Did you do some rewiring? Is it still 6 volts? If so did you use 30 amp wires? If not then you're not getting enough juice thru the system. They are very sensitive to amps and volts.

 

Cosmo,
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm only saying that in order to help the OP, you have to be more specific. You can't expect him to walk into Radio Shack (good luck finding one anymore) and say "I need ANY 30 amp relay you got".

Most relays are triggered by a hot lead, overdrive relays are triggered by ground.
Many relays are momentary contact (like a horn), overdrive relays are continuous use.

I bench tested my OD circuit with an old relay I had in stock. It was a horn relay (which happens to be triggered by ground) and that sucker got too hot to touch within a minute.

 

The 'relay' only operates when you use the kickdown switch; otherwise, the governor controls the OD solenoid. And you shouldn't use just 'any' relay if you want it to work right; the original relay would ground the ignition power for roughly 1/2 engine revolution when the kickdown switch was operated, then open again restoring power, even when the switch was still closed. A 'standard' relay won't do that.

 

[/QUOTE]="Crazy Steve, post: 10892364, member: 222725"]The 'relay' only operates when you use the kickdown switch; otherwise, the governor controls the OD solenoid. And you shouldn't use just 'any' relay if you want it to work right; the original relay would ground the ignition power for roughly 1/2 engine revolution when the kickdown switch was operated, then open again restoring power, even when the switch was still closed. A 'standard' relay won't do that.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what system or schematic you're referencing, but that is definitely not how the Ford systems work.
In a Ford, the governor switch triggers the relay, and the relay then feeds the solenoid. The kickdown switch (not the relay) kills the ignition and kills the power to the solenoid. The moment that the solenoid retracts, the ignition is restored.

 

Cosmo, what relay did you use? If you got a part number or something that would be helpful. I used an off the shelf relay from the auto parts store, just a horn relay I'm guessing.

Bludice, I have a 12 volt system with all new wires. The wires are 14-16 gauge as well as I recall. I used the same gauge as the factory wiring diagram called for (Chevy). Perhaps I need bigger?

I have a relay that has five connections. Not sure exactly how it operates, but I'm going to try it. I believe it is a 30 amp relay.

 

http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/over/drive.htm

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/trans/Borg-Warner Overdrive/index.htm

http://devestechnet.com/Figures/bwtips.pdf

 

I fought our overdrive on our 49 Ford after having to fix the tranny. What a bitch getting that thing back together!
A helpful book for us is THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO THE BORG-WARNER R-10 AND R-11 OVERDRIVE by Randy Rundle.
You can get a copy from Chris & Holly at SHOEBOX CENTRAL here in OKC...

 

you can use a starter relay from a 60s mopar, and they're only $25.

 

You can go the Ford forum and they have a complete self check out for that OD. When it is working right they a lot of fun.

 

Ok this is how I will wire it up. Originally I had 16GA wire running to the solenoid as shown in some "factory" drawings. Perhaps this was not large enough wire, so now I will use 10GA and a different relay. I have a momentary switch mounted in my shifter ball that will trigger a (DPDT) relay that acts as the original kick down switch did. The new relay is a SPST (I believe) 30 amp and will carry the power to the solenoid through a new 10GA wire coming off the starter/battery cable terminal.

 

Thanks for all the help you guys.
For those who have made suggestions, I have considered them all. I have followed or already tried most of them. I have lots of printed information and guides on these OD units. And I have been inside the unit to replace the rear bearing (OD unit) and tranny bearings and small parts. I cleaned the governor points and check the solenoid. The problem seems to be the relay I originally used. I think I have a fix that will work and will post back once I test drive the car later (I hope) this week.

 

Since you said you've had this unit apart, you might want to see a thread here from a guy with similar symptoms you had that were the result of an error in reassembly. I don't have time to search it now, but I'm sure you can find it.