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What the hell kind of tranny is this and how do I fix it?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Moparman74, Sep 5, 2013.

  1. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    [​IMG][/IMG]So I buy this '53 Dodge Wayfarer because I wanted something I could drive and not have to worry about if it was shiny or not.
    I know they had an odd trans but I wasn't sure what it was because I knew they changed something about the fluid drive in '53.

    Long story short, Sometimes the trans mission works fine, shifts using the clutch through all 3 gears.
    Sometimes it doesn't. Shifts through 1st and 2nd then when you shift to 3rd it's just like you went to neutral.
    Sometimes you can pull the over drive and it goes in, other times it doesn't and there is no rhyme nor reason to any of it.
    So I get under it and find a bunch of stuff I have never seen before on an early trans.

    My questions are this, 1. What kind of trans is it? 2. How should it operate? 3. Am I doing something wrong or does it have a problem?
    4. How can I troubleshoot it?

    the car has been changed over to 12 volt and I wonder about some of that.
    Also the car has what I have been told is a "hill holder" there is a little toggle switch you can flip, pull forward an inch or two and it will not roll backwards.



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  2. propwash
    Joined: Jul 25, 2005
    Posts: 3,857

    propwash
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Sounds like your overdrive is engaging sometimes. Free-wheeling is a component of overdrive. I don't know anything about your transmission at all, but only offer this is my experience with overdrive trannies.
     
  3. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    What it appears you have is a ordinary 3 speed manual shift trans with overdrive. It IS NOT a fluid drive or Gyromatic.

    If the OD cable is hooked up to the trans lever, when you pull the OD handle out from the dash, it locks out the OD function. In that configuration it will operate just like any 3 speed manual. If the handle is pushed in, the OD should engage above about 30 mile per hour, when you let up on the throttle momentarily. That is, if everything is functioning correctly.

    Actually, what you have there is a pretty desirable transmission. It can be used to replace either a Fluid Drive or Gyromatic and is fairly hard to come by. It was used behind flathead sixes and Dodge and Desoto V8 hemis. Not a terribly strong trans behind a higher power V8, it will give good service if treated right. Behind your six cylinder it should be bulletproof.
     
  4. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,214

    sunbeam
    Member

    When it does not go into high does the shift lever move as far as when it does?
     

  5. Its a 53 mopar overdrive its a great trans and a very wanted option. if its been converted to 12 volts is there a voltage drop for the trans overdrive bendex.
     
  6. fargoguy
    Joined: Jan 13, 2002
    Posts: 215

    fargoguy
    Member

    These guys are right- standard trans with overdrive- but make sure of one thing- DO NOT ever pull the OD knob OUT while you're moving! It could have disastrous results. Evan
     
  7. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL


    Not quite correct. If you do not have overdrive engaged, even though the handle is pushed in ....or.........you floor it and the 'kick down' disengages the OD, you can safely pull the handle out...thereby locking out the OD.

    You do not want to pull the handle out when you are moving when the OD IS engaged.
     
  8. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 5,777

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Almost all American ODs of this period were R-10 Borg Warners. There are some rare exceptions but you don't have one. Internal workings on Studebaker, Mopar, Hudson, GM, Packard, Ford, etc. are the same. The housings and switches may be a little different. What was said above is true. The system is a lot more simple than it appears. Current is always running through the system but it only works when the cable is pushed in and the paul is allowed to shift into OD when it is moved by the solenoid. This happens in any gear when you let off of the gas at over 27-30 mph. Mostly 2nd and 3rd. That is controlled by the governor that completes the circuit to the solenoid by making a ground. The kick down switch works to beak the ground,momentarily short the ignition and cause the solenoid the shift out of OD. This is what some call passing gear but it is just straight high gear. Do a search for Borg Warner OD. There are OD manuals from all the companies that used them. Studebaker has a good one. The Old Berb Club has a great tech article about rewiring with a button so you can easily split all 3 gears. These things are fun to drive and will roll your Dodge right down the road. Keep it!
    http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/over/drive.htm
    http://www.speedprint.com/deves50/overdriveindex.php

    Some of the older units do not have a reverse lock out. I'm not sure how that works but they don't like being turned backwards. Not sure if you have to be going 27 to do it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013
  9. timothale
    Joined: Feb 3, 2007
    Posts: 234

    timothale
    Member

  10. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    Thanks. So far all of that makes since. I just never seen a 3-speed with electricity to it I guess.
    So, just so I'm clear. The intermittent not taking or coming out of 2nd or 3rd gear is likely do to a solenoid electrical issue?
     
  11. That solenoid with the cover gone has a fuse that is exposed to crap & corruption, make sure it has good contact.
    The 6-12 volt change may be another problem.
     
  12. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    It looks a little thrown together. I honestly wish they had just left it 6 volt.
    They have put a modern style fuse in that line but I'll check it.
    I'm also changing the oil in the trans. Any recommendation on an oil type for this set up?
    They way it acts I have always thought electrical.
    After reading what everyone has said especially.
    Correct me if my assumption is wrong here but, when I'm driving and it either won't take a gear or it comes out of gear it's likely because of either loss of power or ground to the solenoid or a voltage drop which essentially causes it to disengage?


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  13. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    As recommended above, GET A WORKSHOP MANUAL..........stop guessing!
     
  14. OD trans have a few peculiarities that won't be found on 'standard' manual trans...

    One, there's two fill points for gear lube; while the 'main' trans and the OD semi-share lube, you do need to check/maintain levels in both places. Also make sure you use the right weight gear lube; if it calls for 90W, use 90W140, not 75W90.

    Two, you may have issues with the overrunning clutch in the OD. Being low on gear lube in the OD unit can be one reason for the 'false neutrals', but excessively worn rollers or clutch hub can also be the cause. Do get a service manual for checking these things.
     
  15. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Picture 1 is the governor switch. This causes the OD to upshift around 26 mph and downshift around 23 mph.

    Picture 2 is a "rail switch" that prevents OD from engaging when the cable is pulled.

    Picture 4 is a kickdown switch which downshifts the trans when you floor the gas pedal.

    Picture 5 is the OD relay that sends power to the solenoid when the governor switch tells it to.

    Picture 6 is a bird's nest of wiring that needs to be cleaned up.

    Picture 7 shows the solenoid canister on the left. Inside is a shaft that throws inward to upshift into OD.
     
  16. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 5,777

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    The solenoids are two stage. An initial movement of the paul that shifts into OD and a smaller amount of current that keeps it there. The second function is the one most likely to burn up if you put 12v into a 6v solenoid because that winding is on all the time you are in OD. It is not easy to tell which is which as many of the caps have been switched by now. Under the cap is a primitive fuse-able link that breaks when overloaded. This can be reconnected and has caused thousands of good units to be thrown away. There is a seal on the shaft that when worn can allow oil and dirt to get inside and make the solenoid sticky and draw more current and blow the fuse. If you put in a bigger fuse it will blow the link. How do I know? A 45 to 50 mph drive from Vegas to Kingman in a Studebaker with 4.27 rear gears. Anyway never toss a solenoid you think is junk. They can even be rewound if needed.
    Two quick tests. 1. Pull the handle out. Drive and go through all the gears. If you have a problem it is not the OD unless something is keeping the OD engaged. 2. Turn on the ignition. Use a wire to ground the wire that goes from the solenoid to the governor. The solenoid should should click.
     
  17. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    All great input guys! Thanks so much. If I get a chance I'll play with it a little today if I can get the chance.
    I work as a paramedic 24 hours on and 48 hours off and I worked yesterday. had no chance to mess with it.
     
  18. jaxx
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 402

    jaxx
    Member

    big thing you may be missing is that the 53s were 6 volt positive ground - just a thought -jaxx
     
  19. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    Headed to the parts store. What kind of oil for it should I get? I don't have a manual yet.


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  20. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    According to my service data book the trans uses 2 1/2 pints of 80 gear oil. Overdrive not specified, it would probably hold another 1/2 pint. Engine, 5 quarts of 10W30. Not sure if that includes the oil filter, if not, it would hold another pint.

    When you change the oil put in 4, run the engine a bit, go away and let it cool. Come back later and top up if necessary. Do not overfill.

    When you fill the trans, there is a pipe plug in the side that is the filler and level. Check the level by sticking your finger in, if you can touch the oil it is ok. To top up or fill, pump oil in until it drips out.
     
  21. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    Well I changed the oil in it and topped of the rear end.
    Didn't change a damn thing.
    It doesn't act any different with the OD lever in or out.
    I'm a little pissed off at it right now which means its real close to a 318/340/360 and 727 or I'm gonna sell it and search for the 46-48 Plymouth that I really wanted.


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  22. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    I'll look at the electrical parts next I guess.
    Cleaning up somebody else's wiring mess is something I'd rather have a root canal as to do.


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  23. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 5,777

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    Can you hear the solenoid click in? The only wires needed to make it function in a basic mode are the hot wire to the solenoid and the ground. Even if the governor doesn't work you can complete the circuit with a toggle. If you can not get the solenoid to click that may be the problem. I saw several manuals on ebay. Be careful with the toggle, it makes you the boss.
     
  24. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    Traced some wires and it seems that there is a toggle under the dash that I had been told was a "Hill stop" when it flip it the big solenoid on the side actuates and the car won't roll backward .
    Got a manual ordered.


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  25. Six Ball
    Joined: Oct 8, 2007
    Posts: 5,777

    Six Ball
    Member
    from Nevada

    You are on track now. When it is working you will love it. These OGs are really fun to drive.
     
  26. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    So when it's working right with the OD off (lever pulled out) it works like any other 3-speed manual.
    With the OD on (lever pushed in) then it's like splitting gears by letting off the gas pedal?
    I'm really not as much of a dumb ass as I sound like. I've just never had any experience with these.



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  27. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    Well it seems a combination of the new transmission oil with 25% Lucas mixed with it and I have figured out the pattern of what it wants done with this toggle switch.
    Switch off: take off in low or reverse.
    Switch on: shift to second, third, let of the gas in third and it takes overdrive.

    If you forget an leave it on when you stop and try to take off its like doing it with the E-brake half on and it won't go in reverse.


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  28. 56C3B6
    Joined: Mar 2, 2010
    Posts: 44

    56C3B6
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from central NY

    Sounds like you are getting it figured out. I would do away with the by-pass switch and straighten out the wiring so it works correctly. On mine I did away with the kick down switch on the carb and put a momentary switch on the shifter to kick it out of overdrive.
     

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  29. 56C3B6
    Joined: Mar 2, 2010
    Posts: 44

    56C3B6
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from central NY

    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  30. Moparman74
    Joined: Sep 5, 2013
    Posts: 12

    Moparman74
    Member

    Thanks brother.


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