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Old 10-03-2012, 08:27 PM   #1
c-10 simplex
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Default RE: cylinder sleeving

Could we discuss, in great detail, all the steps necessary to sleeve an engine block?

For instance, if say, cylinder #4 on a small block chevy is sleeved then would cylinders #2 and #6 need to be checked and possibly rebored/rehoned due to distortion. Or would ALL cylinders need to be rechecked?
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:30 PM   #2
tricky steve
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

The adjacent cylinders are always distorted, that's the way it is. The others may need attention due to stressing the block. but a properly installed sleeve is as good as new.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I have 2 sleeves in my 389 Pontiac and she has more than 80K miles on her and runs 10s. A properly installed sleeve will last forever and the installation will not have an adverse effect on the adjacent cylinders.

Any engine block needs to have all cylinders checked before you plunk down your hard earned $$ on pistons and such. Maybe they just need a hone...or, most likely they will all need bored and honed..maybe one or two needs a sleeve...maybe all 8 holes are fucked. (probably not...) You never know untill you take your block to a machinist that you trust and let him have a look.

-Abone.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

As correctly stated above, installing a sleeve will always affect the adjacent bores. Powerstroke honing is definitely recommended On siamesed cylinders, such as a 400" SBC, the adjacent bores will definitely have to be honed again.

And yes, I know some have run many engines many miles with sleeves, without re-honing without problems. Just proof engines are forgiving.

Bottom line - measure it with a good Starrett or Sunnen dial bore gauge and you can definitely see the distortion after a sleeve has been installed and how it's round again after being powerstroke honed with a torque plate.

jack vines
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:40 PM   #5
c-10 simplex
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

So then how do feel about using a wet sleeve in a small block chevy?

i'll get the pictures up in a sec.

But i hear that a wet sleeve in a SBC is not a good idea.

i will only be using the engine(for the most part) for transportation and will rarely if ever rev it above 3000rpm.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

sleeving a Chevrolet small block is a simple matter, , it is the process of boring but leaving a step in the bottom of the block for the sleeve to set on , using about .002 press you drive the sleeve in, seat it, then set the boring bar back up, and use a tool that cuts the top of the sleeve down to the block surface, and then bore the sleeve to the desired size, using a wet sleeve isnt usually done, nor do you use a step sleeve with a wider top band , if the cylinder wall is badly damaged some of the sleeve will see coolant but if the surface area for sealing is good, and the sleeve installed with K&W Block sealer few engines will ever show problems, I hope this helps
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

So, here is what we are dealing with:







If the whole cylinder wall has to be machined away, then the only points of rigidity for the sleeve not to move around would be at the deck. As i said earlier, this block would only be used for transportation. Smokey said that wet sleeving a small block chevy is not a good idea but he may have meant for racing.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

that cylinder should take a sleeve ok, you still have plenty of support area, and the boring bar will not take this to the water jacket, a good engine machine shop should know this and be able to repair this block, my real question is, you can find these blacks pretty cheap still, I would check craigslist and see if you can just get another block...sleeving isn't real cheap
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

i got a bored .030 vette block with a dry sleve and honed all my bores to fit my forged pistons proper clearance and run it for 2 years in a stock car on race gas was a 11.1 327 chev run as a late model in 1988 and would place on the short track rather nicely with the quick revs from the short stroke
i took the block in trade as a core and was really broke at the time i put it together
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:44 PM   #10
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Get a better block. That one is junk. Save the cost of sleeving and the worry of it springing a leak. I don't know how you could seal a sleeve in that bore. I suppose it might be possible but why chance it?
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Last edited by Rusty O'Toole; 10-04-2012 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:59 AM   #11
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Quote:
Originally Posted by c-10 simplex View Post
So, here is what we are dealing with:







If the whole cylinder wall has to be machined away, then the only points of rigidity for the sleeve not to move around would be at the deck. As i said earlier, this block would only be used for transportation. Smokey said that wet sleeving a small block chevy is not a good idea but he may have meant for racing.
The only way I would sleeve that block is if it was the original block for a original car. Find a better block, that block took a real hard hit. It may have fractures in places you can not see.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:11 AM   #12
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I have installed plenty of sleeves. The block you show in the pic would be very risky to sleeve as the crack is too close to the bottom of the cylinder !!! >>>>.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:27 AM   #13
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamedabone View Post
I have 2 sleeves in my 389 Pontiac and she has more than 80K miles on her and runs 10s. A properly installed sleeve will last forever and the installation will not have an adverse effect on the adjacent cylinders.

Any engine block needs to have all cylinders checked before you plunk down your hard earned $$ on pistons and such. Maybe they just need a hone...or, most likely they will all need bored and honed..maybe one or two needs a sleeve...maybe all 8 holes are fucked. (probably not...) You never know untill you take your block to a machinist that you trust and let him have a look.

-Abone.
Yea but you got a busted crank. Are you back on the road yet?

The adjacent cylinders will need to be checked after sleeving, if they distort or how bad depends on two things, the machinist who sleeves the block and the block itself. Some blocks are stouter than others by design.

The proper sequence is this, first run the numbers on the block. Now you have determined that you need to sleeve a cylinder, you will also need to determine if you can get away with a dry sleeve or if you have to run a wet sleeve.

Wet sleeve = cut all the way through the original bore into the water jacket. Sometimes you have to do that or maybe it is sometimes you don't. Your machinist will make that determination for you unless you are your machinist.

Sleeve it. Now run your numbers again and determine if the cylinder need to be cut to a new size. Buy pistons and rings to accommodate the rebuild after running the new numbers and make all your cylinders fit the new pistons.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Re those photos, That will buff out! (;-)
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:05 PM   #15
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

a buddy of mine had his fairly expensive 383 sbc blow up last fall, due to some cheap junk valve guides in some "reputable" after market heads, #8 piston was gone, the rod was in the shape of an "S" big hole in the cylinder. well, this block had had a lot of machine work done to it. took it back to the machine shop. after checking every thing he said he could put a sleave in it and it would be fine. it is. the only reason he went this route is because he all ready had good money in that block. if your block is a stoker why not just get another one? you'd probably have the same or less in it than the cost of sleaving that one.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:23 PM   #16
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Thumbs down Re: cylinder sleeving

Quote:
Originally Posted by c-10 simplex View Post
So, here is what we are dealing with:







If the whole cylinder wall has to be machined away, then the only points of rigidity for the sleeve not to move around would be at the deck. As i said earlier, this block would only be used for transportation. Smokey said that wet sleeving a small block chevy is not a good idea but he may have meant for racing.
DOH!!...
Screw it! Get another block!!!!...
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Sleeving is $125 per cylinder, and then finishing off the rest of the block is extra. You're into this block, alone, for $300. You obviously need a crank, piston and rods. Maybe more. You're now at $700. For an extra $150 you can get a reman 350 with a warranty.

I've picked up 305's for $100, thrown in some gaskets, timing chain and a new oil pump and been on down the road. Also roller cams don't need special oil.

OTOH, I did try to get a 455 olds sleeved, but again after looking I got a built short block for $100 more than the labor would have cost.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:42 PM   #18
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I think you have gotten your opinion on the block.

Now tell us about your engine stand. Is that a vintage stove or clothes dryer?
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:53 PM   #19
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I thought it was a radio but now I think you're right it's an electric stove.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I remember a 400 sb we sleeved back in our dirt track days. The machine shop shimmed the boring bar toward the damaged area and bored it for the sleeve. Next they shimmed it back away from that area and bored the sleeve. It kept us racing for a little while.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:13 PM   #21
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Diesel engines use wet sleeves running much higher compression than any gasoline engine will ever see. The only pressure the joint in the sleeve sees is cooling system pressure as the sleeve is sealed by the head gasket at the top. I've had several engines sleeved that had holes into the water jacket with no problems.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

had my 368 lincoln block resleaved to original . engine shop suggested full 8 resleave as wear had taken its toll. also helps with ballance. cost about 900.00 for all8 but she runs like a trooper.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:46 PM   #23
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Quote:
Originally Posted by 53sled View Post
Sleeving is $125 per cylinder, and then finishing off the rest of the block is extra. You're into this block, alone, for $300. You obviously need a crank, piston and rods. Maybe more. You're now at $700. For an extra $150 you can get a reman 350 with a warranty.

I've picked up 305's for $100, thrown in some gaskets, timing chain and a new oil pump and been on down the road. Also roller cams don't need special oil.

OTOH, I did try to get a 455 olds sleeved, but again after looking I got a built short block for $100 more than the labor would have cost.
The thing is, i have everything except for one rod and piston---from that cylinder which got bent and cracked respectively, and the head(s) may be cracked/warped.

Would that change anything? Because in order to swap everything over to a "new" block all cylinders would have to be re-honed at the very least? Possibly the mains might have to be line-bored?

2) The oven is from 67---installed new in a Levitt home. The only reason we took it out and replaced it with a new digital kenmore unit was we thought it stopped working, but it turned out to be a defective fuse/switch. Still works pretty good. i still have it because i can't throw anything away----ties in with the theme of this thread. If it is not going to be more expensive than finding another block, i would like to use this one for, admittedly, psychological/frugal reasons.

Hey, i'm not hurting anybody (besides myself). And yes, i need help.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:52 PM   #24
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Thanks for the update on the stove.

good luck with the block!
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

best ask a machine shop their opinion on a single cylinder sleave and cost. looks like you already have it stripped pretty good so hot tank and inspect it if it has sentimental value. best i can suggest. ray
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:56 PM   #26
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I had I had I did I did !!! Here is the long and the short of this story. You have to leave a step at the bottom of the cylinder for the sleeve to sit on. I can see that the crack is too close to the area where the ledge will be !!! This is a Big Red Flag !!!
And the thing about a wet sleeve !!! You already have a huge chunk that's going to fall out of the block !!! And the machine shop guy won't be happy when the chunk comes out while he's boring the cylinder cause it's most likely going to tear the shit outta his boring bar !!!
Now as much as I know it pains everyone on here to see another smallblock Chevy Die this ones Dead !!!
Oh yeah this is just my opinion but I do this shit for a living >>>>.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

^^^^^ Pro you act like you've done this before...trying to save one when you knew better....and then threw it away anyway...along with the broken carbide...lol

C-10...Im not picking on you personally..Anyone in the buisness will giggle because we face it daily.....Its human nature....Customers asks for advise, and then doesnt want it, because its not what they want to hear.

For the record...I vote...Throw the damn thing away......why put money and energy in junk...Its not like its some rare unobtainium block

Tony
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:13 PM   #28
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Quote:
Originally Posted by c-10 simplex View Post
The thing is, i have everything except for one rod and piston---from that cylinder which got bent and cracked respectively, and the head(s) may be cracked/warped.

Would that change anything? Because in order to swap everything over to a "new" block all cylinders would have to be re-honed at the very least? Possibly the mains might have to be line-bored?

2) The oven is from 67---installed new in a Levitt home. The only reason we took it out and replaced it with a new digital kenmore unit was we thought it stopped working, but it turned out to be a defective fuse/switch. Still works pretty good. i still have it because i can't throw anything away----ties in with the theme of this thread. If it is not going to be more expensive than finding another block, i would like to use this one for, admittedly, psychological/frugal reasons.

Hey, i'm not hurting anybody (besides myself). And yes, i need help.
That engine is junk. Buy a whole new engine. Do not try to build an engine out of that old junk and another block. Just buy another engine.

If you spent good money on a carb, intake, headers or cam OK swap those parts over to the new engine but that's it.

When I say "new engine" you have to use your common sense. It could mean a decent running used engine, a new Target Master, a rebuilt, it's up to you. Just don't try to fix the old one.

To fix that engine would cost more than buying another engine and it would never be as good.

I hope this is clear.

PS You can keep the old engine if you want. It's no good but you don't have to throw it away if you don't want to. Keep it in the garage next to the 45 year old stove.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:01 AM   #29
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Even if you did save $ on a rebuild it's going to cost you way more in the future when it shit's it's self again, that block is junk bite the bullet and get another one.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:03 AM   #30
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Looking at what I can see of the pictures I would say the block is toast. Hit a up a swapmeet or craigslist for another block. If you really have to use your rotating assembly I would definately look at getting the crank checked out. Then you will need to get a rod and piston to match your others, balance the assembly and assemble. um maybe you should just get another running engine.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:33 AM   #31
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty O'Toole View Post
That engine is junk. Buy a whole new engine. Do not try to build an engine out of that old junk and another block. Just buy another engine.

If you spent good money on a carb, intake, headers or cam OK swap those parts over to the new engine but that's it.

When I say "new engine" you have to use your common sense. It could mean a decent running used engine, a new Target Master, a rebuilt, it's up to you. Just don't try to fix the old one.

To fix that engine would cost more than buying another engine and it would never be as good.

I hope this is clear.

PS You can keep the old engine if you want. It's no good but you don't have to throw it away if you don't want to. Keep it in the garage next to the 45 year old stove.

Rusty,
He is actually in pretty fair shape of he wants to build an engine, he is short a piston and a rod for his lower end, they can be found.

Small block chevy blocks are a dime a dozen, the down side is that he will probably have to bore whatever he finds, which puts him back in good shape cause now he doesnt have to come up with one piston to match the rest.

granted I am a little off center but I would cabbage myself a rod and a block and go from there.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I wouldn't sleeve a block unless unless it was rare and/or expensive, or there was some special reason for doing it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:02 AM   #33
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

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I wouldn't sleeve a block unless unless it was rare and/or expensive, or there was some special reason for doing it.
that's what it boils down to .
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I see nothing remotely special about this block, and the other damage described (possible cracked head, the rod/piston, probable crank damage, and who knows what else), tells me it's time for another engine. The TOTAL cost involved far exceeds anything else, unless this was a one of a kind situation. Also, this same post, including the same pics, is over on HotRodders.Com. I'm not sure how many different answers are needed; the only right one, in this situation, is a complete replacement. Butch/56sedandelivery.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:40 PM   #35
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

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Rusty,
He is actually in pretty fair shape of he wants to build an engine, he is short a piston and a rod for his lower end, they can be found.

Small block chevy blocks are a dime a dozen, the down side is that he will probably have to bore whatever he finds, which puts him back in good shape cause now he doesnt have to come up with one piston to match the rest.

granted I am a little off center but I would cabbage myself a rod and a block and go from there.
If it was you or me, and we had half a dozen dead engines laying around, we could probably put together a decent runner in a day or 2 for the cost of a gasket set.

The questioner is more of a beginner, I don't think he has a spare engine pile yet, or the tools or skills. I still think he would be better off to buy another engine. It's not like they are expensive or hard to get. Aren't the Chevy guys always bragging that the big advantage of the Chev engine is that they are cheap and common? Why do things the hard way.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:20 PM   #36
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Why do it the hard way? Because knowledge come from experience. I have had blocks sleeved. Don't think I would save this one. But saving as much as possible ans rebuilding it could be a good learning experience. Maybe that's what he wants.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:38 PM   #37
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

What i really want---provided sleeving is indeed practical and possible in this case AND the cost is not too much more than getting another block, is yes, mainly for the learning experience. But also for frugalness reasons; If i get another block i still have this one to get rid of etc. Space, like time = money.

The plan is not to hold on to this block if it is impractical to do so. Costs are a big concern here.

i will possibly provide much more detail to the complete story of this engine later.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:56 PM   #38
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I know a rich guy that wanted to run a used NASCAR 426 hemi block that had thrown a rod. Well he ended up sleeving it 32 times. Each cylinders needed to be done twice to get to the size he wanted. Then after putting on a set of heads he found out that NASCAR blocks had different lifter bore angle. So all the lifters had to be sleeved. After putting a ton of money in it, he ran it hard with out any problems.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:31 PM   #39
shawnspeed
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

Auto cast at the re-cycler here is 300 a ton...sheetmetal is 200 a ton ...sounds like to me , that block and 45 year old stove went to be recycled, you are 1/2 way to a replacement block off c-list....just my 2C...Shawn
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:33 PM   #40
c-10 simplex
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

The stove works fine.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:57 PM   #41
Rusty O'Toole
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

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Originally Posted by 53sled View Post
Sleeving is $125 per cylinder, and then finishing off the rest of the block is extra. You're into this block, alone, for $300. You obviously need a crank, piston and rods. Maybe more. You're now at $700. For an extra $150 you can get a reman 350 with a warranty.

I've picked up 305's for $100, thrown in some gaskets, timing chain and a new oil pump and been on down the road. Also roller cams don't need special oil.

OTOH, I did try to get a 455 olds sleeved, but again after looking I got a built short block for $100 more than the labor would have cost.
$700+ to save a junk block or $100 to buy a rebuildable engine, or $850 for a reman engine with warranty.

What to do, what to do.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:59 PM   #42
RichFox
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I have run sleeves in a 460 ford as well as a Nissan V6 on the salt. Both worked fine. I don't have any difficulty getting rid of old blocks. scrappers drive around here and grab whatever they can get.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:58 AM   #43
CutawayAl
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

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Originally Posted by RichFox View Post
Why do it the hard way? Because knowledge come from experience. I have had blocks sleeved. Don't think I would save this one. But saving as much as possible ans rebuilding it could be a good learning experience. Maybe that's what he wants.
When you sleeve a block you do it with the hope everything works out. But, even when done correctly there is the potential for a number of things to go wrong. So, it could also be an opportunity to see first hand what can go wrong.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:43 PM   #44
falcongeorge
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Default Re: cylinder sleeving

I really cant see any percentage in sleeving this block. 350 blocks are a dime a dozen. Unlike a lot of guys on here, I dont have any problem with sleeves per-se, I have punched sleeves into blocks that blew up racing with no problems, and I have made REAL good power with blocks with multiple sleeves, but they were blocks that already had a lot invested in machine work. Considering the damage here, and the fact that it is a stocker sbc, you are just throwing money away. But hey, its your money.
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