Welcome to the THE H.A.M.B. forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

Go Back   THE H.A.M.B. > General Discussion > The Hokey Ass Message Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-23-2012, 06:40 PM   #1
surfin
Newbie
 
surfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: central cal
Posts: 91
Default Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

it is something i have mused over for some time and was pondering the reality of the thought, so has anyone done it? and what were the results?
__________________
Drive Hard, Hang Loose
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 06:43 PM   #2
tedley
Senior Member
 
tedley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: canada
Posts: 1,750
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

I really don't think the thing would hold together past idle. KABOOM
online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 06:57 PM   #3
6-71
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: northwest pa.
Posts: 497
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by surfin View Post
it is something i have mused over for some time and was pondering the reality of the thought, so has anyone done it? and what were the results?
Yes,as a matter of fact it has been done.I know an old fellow who put a corvair turbo charger on a model B engine,in a roadster pickup.He drove it all over the place.His son and grandson are Hambers,and also play with turbos.maybe they will chime in on this.
offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 02-23-2012, 07:01 PM   #4
handyandy289
Grenade Inspector
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Georgia
Posts: 354
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Bad idea. Back pressure creates too much heat on the exhaust ports. Will run way too hot.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 07:06 PM   #5
Rusty O'Toole
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 4,387
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

For certain technical reasons a flathead engine should respond well to supercharging.

Handyandy has a good point. Flatheads have a hard time cooling the exhaust valve and seat area. But if you ran a turbo with not too much pressure and an open exhaust it should work out OK.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 07:13 PM   #6
RichFox
Alliance Member
 
RichFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Mateo, Ca.
Posts: 6,359
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

I bet Beefstew jumps in here to put to rest all the misinformation about turbocharged V4F engines. In my opinion they don't really meet the spirit of the rules. But that is not the point of this thread.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 07:25 PM   #7
indestructableforce
Grenade Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 152
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Wonder how bad you'd scare v8s? Turbo seems kinda goofy, such "new" tech (well not really, just weird) on an old motor. There's someone on YouTube who's got a built banger with a race cam, big valves, port, big bore, and did a bunch of other work. That thing is quick, while still running a 3-speed. Sounds meaner than alot of v8s. It'd scorch the earth with a huffer and 5-speed.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 07:34 PM   #8
Johnny Speedster
FNG
 
Johnny Speedster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 46
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Not a bad idea at all



http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages...tml?1173640520
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 07:46 PM   #9
surfin
Newbie
 
surfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: central cal
Posts: 91
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

say 6-ish psi with a remote mount turbo to get heat away from the engine?
__________________
Drive Hard, Hang Loose
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 08:51 PM   #10
RichFox
Alliance Member
 
RichFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Mateo, Ca.
Posts: 6,359
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Then there is the Matrix Machine model T powered 'liner that averaged 201.7. Turbo charged flathead four. But the guys who say it can't be done are probably right.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 09:20 PM   #11
metalshapes
Tech Editor
 
metalshapes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Posts: 10,808
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiesteve View Post
mancillas brothers from la ran a turbo b for years.
Click image for larger version

Name:	1-MBrosOpt-1.jpg
Views:	195
Size:	21.0 KB
ID:	1572545

Click image for larger version

Name:	1-MBrosopt--1-2.jpg
Views:	227
Size:	46.5 KB
ID:	1572546
__________________
I met a man who's name was time, he said "I must be going"
But just how long ago that was, I have no way of knowing.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2012, 09:48 PM   #12
surfin
Newbie
 
surfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: central cal
Posts: 91
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

what about water/methanol injection? that should cool things down
__________________
Drive Hard, Hang Loose
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 08:46 AM   #13
johnneilson
Grenade Inspector
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Burbank, Ca.
Posts: 338
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

How about the current Bonneville record?
It is a B motor, turbo and on babbitt.
No wait, it can't be done.

Mr B??
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 12:41 PM   #14
Rusty O'Toole
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 4,387
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

A normal stock engine has a certain amount of back pressure because of the restrictive muffler and exhaust pipe. A turbo causes back pressure but if you used a turbo, connected to an open exhaust, you should have no more back pressure and no more heat than a stock engine. Provided you don't go crazy on the boost, keep it down to 5 PSI or so.

The turbo provides a certain muffler effect so an open exhaust on a turbo car is not as noisy as on a non turbo car.

It is a matter of not putting more heat into the exhaust area than the cooling system can draw away.

Now the reasons a supercharger should work well on a flathead - supercharging provides an instant increase in compression, so you need a low compression engine. Flatheads have this feature. Also flatheads were a conservative design with small valves and ports, mild cams etc. This means they work great at low to medium RPMs but run out of breath at higher speeds. A supercharger corrects this.

In the thirties there were cars with centrifugal blowers from Graham, Auburn, Cord and Duesenberg. They worked well and were reliable. Typically, they used a supercharged six to replace a straight eight and a supercharged eight to replace a twelve cylinder engine. The blower added up to 50% more HP.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 12:49 PM   #15
malaguena
Grenade Inspector
 
malaguena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: between here and there in W.A.
Posts: 330
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Well i saw a picture from the early 40s of a track style roadster that was being run at the flats. It had a turbo setup on a willys flat four. I recall if did around 120.

Personally i saw the pic and wondered what that turbo was off of originally.
__________________
Good morning whiskey, good morning night. The end of the world is in my sight." Hank3
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 09:57 PM   #16
surfin
Newbie
 
surfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: central cal
Posts: 91
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

hmm, interesting stuff
__________________
Drive Hard, Hang Loose
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2012, 11:45 PM   #17
surfin
Newbie
 
surfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: central cal
Posts: 91
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/...als/index.html another mancillas brothers turbo 4 banger
__________________
Drive Hard, Hang Loose
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2012, 12:25 AM   #18
chriseakin
Grenade Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: northern Alberta, Canada
Posts: 125
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Smoky Yunick put a turbo flathead four in a pinto, probably running on propane.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 02:27 PM   #19
4-port Riley
Grenade Inspector
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 281
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Mr. B here, mine is an OHV Cook head on a B block, C crank, babbitt mains. Last August it ran 165 in a lakester, turbocharged on alky. Boost pressure was 10 psi, 6,000 RPM If you are really concerned about exhaust cooling, there are ways to force water directly to the valve area, I'm not sure it is necessary??? There are a couple of flathead bangers that are turbocharged running on the salt, with good results.
__________________
Jim Brierley
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2012, 02:41 PM   #20
hotrodA
Alliance Member
 
hotrodA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Rogersville, TN, USA
Posts: 2,025
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4-port Riley View Post
Mr. B here, mine is an OHV Cook head on a B block, C crank, babbitt mains. Last August it ran 165 in a lakester, turbocharged on alky. Boost pressure was 10 psi, 6,000 RPM
YIKES!!

Care to post a pic? That's badass!
__________________
"Some of my ancestors mighta hung by their necks, but none of 'em ever hung by their tails!"
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2012, 11:26 AM   #21
Beef Stew
Senior Member
 
Beef Stew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,264
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichFox View Post
I bet Beefstew jumps in here to put to rest all the misinformation about turbocharged V4F engines. In my opinion they don't really meet the spirit of the rules. But that is not the point of this thread.
Rich, you know me so well.

I don't even know where to begin with this whole deal but I guess I'll start by saying that we had a best one-way pass at Bonneville of 155 mph. That's just 10 mph off of Mr. Brierley's pass and we're using a flathead...with an old cracked cast iron Winfield head.... and stock rods on a stock 3 main crank. We had the sucker turned up to 11 on that run.

But flatheads generally don't like being turned up to 11. For instance, we blow a head gasket every single run. Yup, new head gasket for each pass. That gets old (and expensive) very fast. Whether handyandy was guessing or knows from experience I don't know but he's very right about the heat and back pressure issues. Turbos put a ton of additional heat stress on the engine which is never good. We even run a huge 1.1 AR exhaust housing and there's still too much heat and pressure.

Keep in mind that we're pushing this thing pretty damn hard for two miles (it could never do a full 3 mile pass). The drag race guys got it easy. All a drag motor has to do is last for 12 seconds and its done. I think they even run the blocks dry. No way in hell you could do that on anything longer than a 1/4 mile if you're running a turbo. No way.

Turbo on the street? Maybe but it'd have to be extremely mild. The other huge problem (on a Model A/B at least) are the siamesed intake ports. With this configuration, there is a very long period of time where fuel is deposited into the port while both intake valves are closed. What happens is when the first intake valve opens that cylinder gets a whole bunch of fuel but when the second intake valve opens 180 crank degrees later only a fraction of fuel is ingested. So this means that two cylinders run very rich and two cylinders run very lean and you can only tune to your leanest cylinders. This phenomenom is always happening even when naturally aspirated but the problem gets amplified once you go forced induction. Add in the addtional heat and you've got a banger with a very short fuse. Also, water injection will not work for the same reason... two cylinders will get too much water and two cylinders will not get enough.

Joel Young's Model T has it easy (or easier at least) because he machined out the whole side of the block and added in two more intake ports. With 8 ports you can treat it like a regular engine for the most part. Add on a OHV conversion and it might as well be a Pinto... too easy! We're still using the stock port configuration but trying to get around this whole lean-rich problem by using efi. We'll basically set it up to only deliver fuel when the intake valve is open. Hoping to get the motor running and tuned this spring/summer.
__________________
traditionally untraditional
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2012, 11:30 PM   #22
surfin
Newbie
 
surfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: central cal
Posts: 91
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

all very interesting! the EFI was of some interest to me as well
__________________
Drive Hard, Hang Loose
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 12:56 AM   #23
Rusty O'Toole
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 4,387
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malaguena View Post
Well i saw a picture from the early 40s of a track style roadster that was being run at the flats. It had a turbo setup on a willys flat four. I recall if did around 120.

Personally i saw the pic and wondered what that turbo was off of originally.
Turbochargers were invented during WW1 for aircraft but were not widely used. After the war the USAF did some experiments. Centrifugal blowers were used on race cars in the twenties and on production cars starting in 1934. Don't know of any turbocharged cars before 1961 but there were definitely centrifugally blown cars in the thirties. America was the leader in centrifugal superchargers.

So, a centrifugal supercharger would be 1930s trad. If you can't find one off a Graham, Cord or Auburn or one of the aftermarket ones made for Fords by McCulloch, you could adapt a turbo to a belt drive blower.
offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 03-07-2012, 09:03 AM   #24
RichFox
Alliance Member
 
RichFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Mateo, Ca.
Posts: 6,359
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Hot Rod racing on the salt started in '49. as I understand it. I did see a shortened A roadster with a Willys four and a Graham supercharger there one year. In the 80s I think. Had numbers and class lettering like lots of bogus Bonneville cars. I thought it was really neat. Asked him if he was going to run it and he said he didn't want to possibly damage the engine.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 10:19 AM   #25
MoparMontana
Grenade Inspector
 
MoparMontana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 139
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

With enough time, money, and brainpower you can make anything work, go fast, and hopefully... stay in one piece.
__________________
www.fastfourspecial.com
Ten-time Bonneville Vintage Flathead Four Cylinder Record Holders
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2012, 12:09 AM   #26
turbostude
Grenade Inspector
 
turbostude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: minnesota
Posts: 339
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

I successfully ran a Stude 190" flathead 6 which had siamesed ports with 17# boost. In doing calcs assume a V.E. of 75% for flatheads to determine possible HP gains.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 07:07 AM   #27
LSR 2909
Member
 
LSR 2909's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 560
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichFox View Post
Hot Rod racing on the salt started in '49. as I understand it. I did see a shortened A roadster with a Willys four and a Graham supercharger there one year. In the 80s I think. Had numbers and class lettering like lots of bogus Bonneville cars. I thought it was really neat. Asked him if he was going to run it and he said he didn't want to possibly damage the engine.
I don't get why guys use bogus number and class lettering on street cars, or fictitious speed shop logos for that matter.
__________________
"When the oil's stops, everything's stops"
http://www.popeyeconproductions.com
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 08:31 AM   #28
RichFox
Alliance Member
 
RichFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Mateo, Ca.
Posts: 6,359
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

I tend to agree with you. But if I ever saw someone using my number (104) I think I would be proud. Most or all of the bogus cars seem to use 2 digit numbers.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 10:04 AM   #29
4-port Riley
Grenade Inspector
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Temecula, CA
Posts: 281
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

There are several torbo'ed flathead fours running on the salt with good reliability except the head gasket seems to be the stickler. Joel Young's flathead T streamliner does OK at 201.:-) My B engine is a Cook OHV conversion on an early '32 block, C crank and babbitt mains, 165 is my best to date. This is the same block, crank and babbitt that I ran on the salt back in the 70's, as well as in a dragster for many years at the Antique Nationals, which happen to be coming this Sunday at Irwindale Dragstrip.
__________________
Jim Brierley
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 10:26 AM   #30
Orlando1701
Grenade Inspector
 
Orlando1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Orlando, Fl
Posts: 130
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by surfin View Post
it is something i have mused over for some time and was pondering the reality of the thought, so has anyone done it? and what were the results?
I know some people who have had a couple of Thunderbird Turbo Coupes, but that's a facotry built Turbo 4 banger. They seem to love them.
__________________
"It never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 10:30 AM   #31
MATACONCEPTS
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Valinda, CA
Posts: 2,179
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

The HAMB'rs are some of the baddest mother fuckers around!!!!!!
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2012, 01:56 PM   #32
derbydad276
Senior Member
 
derbydad276's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: canton michigan
Posts: 1,036
Default Re: Has anyone here turbocharged a flathead 4 banger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Speedster View Post

the term (mad scientist) comes to mind
__________________
your kids can have their own race car...
www.aasbd.org
offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:22 PM.