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Old 02-03-2012, 07:28 AM   #1
38FLATTIE
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Default Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Rich, this is one of those 'out of the box' ideas', that get me into trouble!

In my quest to find out how much more HP a centrifugal supercharger is capable of making, over a roots style huffer, I got side tracked!
I started thinking about how I could get the benefits of a supercharger, without losing the HP it takes to run one.

Since all a supercharger does is compress air, why not just carry compressed air on the car, and use it for boost? Obviously, it's not that simple, because of controlling and monitoring the boost, compressing the air, etc. but that's another story!

If 14lbs boost could be achieved from compressed air, the HP gain would be staggering. I approached Woody (Design Dreams, LLC) with the idea, and he sent me the attached pic

The car was designed and raced by Art Malone, even though the caption under the car reads: The "Air car" at Don Garlits' Drag Racing Museum. Concerned that he was losing too much power driving the blower, Garlits came up with this ingenious car, which featured a large tank of compressed air which was progressively fed into the engine during a run, instead of a blower.

This started a google search, where I found this:

Initial testing of various forms of the system was done on three different dragsters and one of Mickey Thompson's Ford Funny Cars, but in all instances, no full quarter-mile runs were attempted. Recently, however, Keane got together with Mickey Thompson and, utilizing Thompson's exotic dyno facility in Long Beach, accomplished an exhaustive testing program. The results were phenomenal. Where a 6-71 blown Boss 429 Ford engine on 20% nitro had produced 1360 horsepower, the same type of engine equipped with the bottled air system in place of the Rootes blower, burning only straight alcohol, produced 2400 horsepower at 6000 rpm! On gasoline, the system made about 1550 horsepower. This success was not easily achieved, as in one week of testing, Thompson reportedly ran 150 gallons of alcohol through the dyno engine.

So, long story short, is this a possibility? Can enough air be stored on board, with either bottles, or utilizing the frame, etc., to to run a 366 CID engine, at 14lbs boost, for 3 miles at WOT?

If not, why?
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Last edited by 38FLATTIE; 02-03-2012 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!

Figure how much air goes through your engine at WOT. Then do the math and I think you'll see you would need a huge air tank, or a trailer for the air!

Oh and I think sanctioning bodies made it illegal as well.

The theory works, just not too practical. That's what nitrous is for.
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!

Way back when (70's? 80's?) HRM ran a story about someone (Smoky Yunick?) putting a venturi setup on top of a carburetor and shooting high pressure air through a jet, thus entraining a huge volume of air at medium pressure into the engine. A small belt-run compressor replenished the tank, and the system was activated by a full-throttle switch. Since you don't drive around at full throttle all the time-well, hopefully not!- the tank has time to refill between blasts, and more than enough duration for the "street Nationals"!
I think they got a hundred HP boost with little parasitic drag. Only about 6# boost on their initial model, I think, but worth considering.
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:52 AM   #4
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!

look into an older style Mack truck air compressor and check with semi truck dealers about various size air tanks I actually used a mack compressor on a race car tow rig for air to run tools and air tires ect. a few years ago
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!

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Originally Posted by badshifter View Post
Figure how much air goes through your engine at WOT. Then do the math and I think you'll see you would need a huge air tank, or a trailer for the air!

Oh and I think sanctioning bodies made it illegal as well.

The theory works, just not too practical. That's what nitrous is for.
I'm looking for the equations I need to figure this.

As for sanctioning bodies making illigal, this is for SCTA-Bonneville. I've scoured the rules, and I believe it's legal, as long as I run in the supercharged class.


Quote:
Originally Posted by R Pope View Post
Way back when (70's? 80's?) HRM ran a story about someone (Smoky Yunick?) putting a venturi setup on top of a carburetor and shooting high pressure air through a jet, thus entraining a huge volume of air at medium pressure into the engine. A small belt-run compressor replenished the tank, and the system was activated by a full-throttle switch. Since you don't drive around at full throttle all the time-well, hopefully not!- the tank has time to refill between blasts, and more than enough duration for the "street Nationals"!
I think they got a hundred HP boost with little parasitic drag. Only about 6# boost on their initial model, I think, but worth considering.
Actually, I will drive around all the time at WOt. This is for a Cadillac flathead powered Bonneville car, so I only need to power it for 3 miles at a time.
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

The reason it takes a lot of HP to turn a blower is because it's pumping a LOT of air. My blower has two 650 cfm carbs on it...my shop compressor (a good old 5 hp unit) pumps about 20 cfm....

The cfm rating varies with pressure, so this is not really a fair comparison, but still, you get the idea.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:27 AM   #7
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

The cylinder volume calc is pi (3.141) x r2 x stroke. Then multiply that for number of cylinders. That is the volume for 1 rpm. Then times that volume by the wot rpms. That is the volume you would need per minute. Multiply that times how long a run lasts. Add a bunch for stable pressure throughout the run.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:29 AM   #8
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

And if you are running 14 psi boost, you need roughly twice as much air as he said.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:34 AM   #9
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Sounds like NOS power in a bottle
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:53 AM   #10
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Yeah that's 14 psi more than the air the engine's already sucking in!
You'd need a compressor with a volume 20% larger than your gas burner engine,
or is it twice the volume I don't know.

Either a small fast running compressor or a large slow running compressor,
along with the tank.
They should do that on new cars!

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Old 02-03-2012, 09:01 AM   #11
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by macker2b View Post
I think sanctioning bodies made it illegal as well.
Even if it is illegal, I'd run time only, to see what gains I could acheive, if it were doable!

Quote:
Originally Posted by badshifter View Post
The cylinder volume calc is pi (3.141) x r2 x stroke. Then multiply that for number of cylinders. That is the volume for 1 rpm. Then times that volume by the wot rpms. That is the volume you would need per minute. Multiply that times how long a run lasts. Add a bunch for stable pressure throughout the run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
And if you are running 14 psi boost, you need roughly twice as much air as he said.

Ok, so bore is 3.55", and stroke is 4.625"

Doing the math. 3.146x1.775x1.775x4.625=45.8424

45.8424x8 cylinders x 5500 rpm=2,017,065 CI of air

x2 as Squirrel said=4,034,131 CI

This translates into 17463.77 cubic gallons of air,per minute!

Seriously??!!!

Surely I made a huge math error here? How did Art Malone manage to get his drag car down the track?

Last edited by 38FLATTIE; 02-03-2012 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Electrically driven supercharger, linked to motor speed? No direct drag that way.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Electrically driven supercharger, linked to motor speed? No direct drag that way.
James, I think the power required to run the supercharger would be prohibitive, much like the air scenario, but I'll do the math on it.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:18 AM   #14
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Electrically driven supercharger, linked to motor speed? No direct drag that way.
Alot of big boats, like cruise liners,
use electric motors,
but the generators used to power them are almost as big as the motors they replace!
The batteries or generator needed would rob all the supercharged power!
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:25 AM   #15
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Electrically driven supercharger, linked to motor speed? No direct drag that way.
uhhhh...yeah....as I said, my 5 hp compressor makes about 20 cfm, but my engine makes some power if it gets 1300 cfm. Think about how much electric power you need to run an electric supercharger to feed that much air. And how big the motor would be. And the thing about "conservation of energy" and the other thing about "entropy increases" (these are the laws of thermodynamics, which you kind of need to understand if you're going to try wild ideas like this)
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:35 AM   #16
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Read the Moon is a Harsh Mistress-TANSTNAAFL - There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Physics never gives more than it takes. (although squirrel will know the extropic(?) exception). I remember the French were trying to make a car run on compressed air a few years ago. there might be something there for you. Good luck. Your idea makes sense in way, I hope you find that way.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by zibo View Post
Alot of big boats, like cruise liners,
use electric motors,
but the generators used to power them are almost as big as the motors they replace!
The batteries or generator needed would rob all the supercharged power!
TP
Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
uhhhh...yeah....as I said, my 5 hp compressor makes about 20 cfm, but my engine makes some power if it gets 1300 cfm. Think about how much electric power you need to run an electric supercharger to feed that much air. And how big the motor would be. And the thing about "conservation of energy" and the other thing about "entropy increases" (these are the laws of thermodynamics, which you kind of need to understand if you're going to try wild ideas like this)

Yeah, I guess it comes down to the same thing - you canīt get something for nothing.
Dumb idea actually.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Read the Moon is a Harsh Mistress-TANSTNAAFL - There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Physics never gives more than it takes. (although squirrel will know the extropic(?) exception). I remember the French were trying to make a car run on compressed air a few years ago. there might be something there for you. Good luck. Your idea makes sense in way, I hope you find that way.
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Yeah, I guess it comes down to the same thing - you canīt get something for nothing.
Dumb idea actually.

You're right about the First Law of Thermodynamics, but I'm really not trying to get a 'free lunch'. The energy, and work of the supercharger is being replaced by compressed air. Obviosly, it took energy to compress the air, when the air was compressed.

I'm just trying to 'replace' the HP it takes to turn a supercharger, with HP not from the engine-i.e. the HP it took to compress the air.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:49 AM   #19
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Leaf blowers man!!

Check it out.....

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...r/viewall.html
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

How about this idea.

I see you using some large size Oxy/Acy tanks to store the air at a huge pressure (2,200psi I think is normal) you can store a lot of power and air that way, when in the pits your compressors there charge them (have to figure out how to get a compressor that powerful on the salt)

Or maybe even better;

Get some large Oxygen tanks (from your OxyAcetelyne setup) and mount those in the car, they come with ~2,200 psi I think of Oxy.

Instead of air with about 20% Oxygen you now have ~99% Oxygen at a huge pressure.

You feed this into the car at a 10psi to 14psi pressure with the additional fuel required to get the ratio correct, you now have several times more oxygen to burn fuel with than you would have had with air.

Maybe the implementation isn't perfect, but the idea is sound. If you don't believe me put an oxygen tank in place of a NOS tank and see the performance increase in your car.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:50 AM   #21
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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You're right about the First Law of Thermodynamics, but I'm really not trying to get a 'free lunch'.
No offence, I meant the electric blower idea of mine was probably dumb.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Volume. volume, volume. It's not about pressure. You might be able to install and control an air pressure tank, but it would only provide you with a few seconds of boost and take several minutes to replenish.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I love really inquisitive threads, it brings out all the smart guys . I'm not one of them but I'll throw in my .02 cents.

I see the same problems everyone else is seeing, and that is volume and storage. I am a firefighter for my job, and one of the tools we use for auto extrication is a plain air chisel. We run it with a special regulator off of one of our SCBA bottles. (breathing air) Compressed to a MASSIVE 4500 PSI (not a typo, over 4,000 lbs on our backs when we go in a fire).

We get about 3 minutes of good tool time before we have to change out the bottle running the tool at 90 PSI. The storage bottles we have in our fire station are filled to 5,000 PSI by a special compressor, and they weigh about 250 Lbs each and wouldn't last you a ton longer even if you had the ability to refill them. The compressors run an average of 30-50 K depending on volume and other options.

So you see, even compressing at very high pressures for storage, the volume still wouldn't be there. With some amazing engineering you might get a 1/4 mile car to work running the system for 4 or 5 seconds, but 3 miles? I just don't see that as a possibility.

I would just like to finish out by saying I do love the out of the box thinking, thats why records get broken every year out on the salt!


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Old 02-03-2012, 09:56 AM   #24
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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We run it with a special regulator off of one of our SCBA bottles. (breathing air) Compressed to a MASSIVE 4500 PSI (not a typo, over 4,000 lbs on our backs when we go in a fire).

We get about 3 minutes of good tool time before we have to change out the bottle running the tool at 90 PSI. The storage bottles we have in our fire station are filled to 5,000 PSI by a special compressor, and they weigh about 250 Lbs each and wouldn't last you a ton longer even if you had the ability to refill them.
OK, so get a few of those 5,000psi 250lbs tanks and regulators.

There is a huge difference between 90psi and 10psi to run an engine. I agree that volume is the trick, but being heavy is a good thing on the salt, so a dozen or so of the 5,000 psi tanks may do the trick and give a nice balast for getting going.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by rschilp View Post
How about this idea.

I see you using some large size Oxy/Acy tanks to store the air at a huge pressure (2,200psi I think is normal) you can store a lot of power and air that way, when in the pits your compressors there charge them (have to figure out how to get a compressor that powerful on the salt)

Or maybe even better;

Get some large Oxygen tanks (from your OxyAcetelyne setup) and mount those in the car, they come with ~2,200 psi I think of Oxy.

Instead of air with about 20% Oxygen you now have ~99% Oxygen at a huge pressure.

You feed this into the car at a 10psi to 14psi pressure with the additional fuel required to get the ratio correct, you now have several times more oxygen to burn fuel with than you would have had with air.

Maybe the implementation isn't perfect, but the idea is sound. If you don't believe me put an oxygen tank in place of a NOS tank and see the performance increase in your car.
Haha! You might want to 'google', and see the results of introducing pure O2- it's very unpredictable, and blows stuff up! It's been tried, though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by James D View Post
No offence, I meant the electric blower idea of mine was probably dumb.
James, I was using the quote from belair. No offence taken- I asked, you answered, and I appeciate that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 42hotrod View Post
I love really inquisitive threads, it brings out all the smart guys . I'm not one of them but I'll throw in my .02 cents.

I see the same problems everyone else is seeing, and that is volume and storage. I am a firefighter for my job, and one of the tools we use for auto extrication is a plain air chisel. We run it with a special regulator off of one of our SCBA bottles. (breathing air) Compressed to a MASSIVE 4500 PSI (not a typo, over 4,000 lbs on our backs when we go in a fire).

We get about 3 minutes of good tool time before we have to change out the bottle running the tool at 90 PSI. The storage bottles we have in our fire station are filled to 5,000 PSI by a special compressor, and they weigh about 250 Lbs each and wouldn't last you a ton longer even if you had the ability to refill them. The compressors run an average of 30-50 K depending on volume and other options.

So you see, even compressing at very high pressures for storage, the volume still wouldn't be there. With some amazing engineering you might get a 1/4 mile car to work running the system for 4 or 5 seconds, but 3 miles? I just don't see that as a possibility.

I would just like to finish out by saying I do love the out of the box thinking, thats why records get broken every year out on the salt!


Scot
I'm not a very smart guy,for sure, or I wouldn't have asked the question.

After seeing the numbers, I agree that this is not going to work. I believe that SCBA bottles hold about 80 CF of air, correct? I'd have to have a semi load of them onboard!
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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OK, so get a few of those 5,000psi 250lbs tanks and regulators.

There is a huge difference between 90psi and 10psi to run an engine. I agree that volume is the trick, but being heavy is a good thing on the salt, so a dozen or so of the 5,000 psi tanks may do the trick and give a nice balast for getting going.
I did think of the difference between the PSI, but what would kill you on the big bottles would be the volume. As Squirell pointed out, you have to think in terms of how much air the engine needs at WOT. To make it simple, with a naturally aspirated Big block, typically you will need around 1,000 CFM for a well built engine. Thats 1,000 cubic feet per minute of air. I googled it and one of those 5,000 PSI bottles (the size is like your big oxygen bottles for a torch) has all this info on it:

DOT cylinder manufactured in accordance to DOT-E-10869-5000 specification. 472 SCF capacity
CYL-0062 referenced to 70°F and 5000 PSIG. Nominal water volume 1.59 cubic feet. Includes cylinder valve
with CGA 347 connection. Valve includes a pressure relief device. Weight, 158 pounds empty.

heres the link, go to page 2.
http://www.bauercomp.com/sites/defau...s-Brochure.pdf

Thats a lot of bottles for a 1 minute run


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Old 02-03-2012, 10:05 AM   #27
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

A 350 cid engine at 14# boost will use about 0.2 cu ft of air per revolution. At 6000 rpm, it would use 1200 cu ft in one minute. The biggest high pressure air bottles you can get from a welding supply house hold about 300 cu ft of air, so you'd have to have 4 of those on board to supply the boost for one minute.

That air volume would scale directly as a function of rpm or engine displacement. For example, a 350 turning 9000 would need 1 1/2 times as much air, or a 525 cu in engine running at 6000 would also need 1 1/2 times as much air.

One of your biggest expenses in a setup like this would be the pressure regulators capable of handling 1200 cfm at the outlet and 2500 psi at the inlet. That ain't your average oxygen regulator, or even a half a dozen of them in parallel.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:11 AM   #28
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

The last problem I see is releasing that type of pressure at a volume high enough to feed the engine. The valves on high pressure bottles have a very small outlet on purpose, fill them too rapidly and the bottles get very hot very fast. Now, release that air rapidly and it gets cold. To the point if there is humidity you instantly get frost buildup on all of your valves and any restriction you have in the system. Just another thought to throw in the mix.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:11 AM   #29
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How about this idea.

I see you using some large size Oxy/Acy tanks to store the air at a huge pressure (2,200psi I think is normal) you can store a lot of power and air that way, when in the pits your compressors there charge them (have to figure out how to get a compressor that powerful on the salt)

Or maybe even better;

Get some large Oxygen tanks (from your OxyAcetelyne setup) and mount those in the car, they come with ~2,200 psi I think of Oxy.

Instead of air with about 20% Oxygen you now have ~99% Oxygen at a huge pressure.

You feed this into the car at a 10psi to 14psi pressure with the additional fuel required to get the ratio correct, you now have several times more oxygen to burn fuel with than you would have had with air.

Maybe the implementation isn't perfect, but the idea is sound. If you don't believe me put an oxygen tank in place of a NOS tank and see the performance increase in your car.
I'm not a chemist, scientist, engineer, or race car mechanic, but I think 99% oxygen at high pressure would probably send your car into a 5 second quarter mile--1/4 mile straight up into the sky!

Nitrous Oxide (as an oxidizer not a fuel) has been used to do what you propose a bit more safely.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:12 AM   #30
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I'm not a chemist, scientist, engineer, or race car mechanic, but I think 99% oxygen at high pressure would probably send your car into a 5 second quarter mile--1/4 mile straight up into the sky!

Nitrous Oxide (as an oxidizer not a fuel) has been used to do what you propose a bit more safely.
Yeah, and nitrous has ONE extra oxygen molecule, Imagine 99%
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:14 AM   #31
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

since were thinking outside the box here.

Since engine drag is your concern why not drive a centrifical supercharger off the drive shaft, you would have alot more gearing advantage and less engine drag.

And as for onboard air, you can get 2500psi or better in a oxy bottle from your torch. but its very heavy.

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Old 02-03-2012, 10:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Hey, '38;

What you propose should work. Just need to use large enough tanks, & get the air management down. Learning curve would be tough. Keane might help - think he's in Canada??

You don't want to use a compressor to "charge" the mill (or the supply tanks) you'd run, or you may as well haul a RR Mustang engine in a trailer behind you, as a pump. & even then... . A small aux pump would work on the street, to charge small tanks, for occasional, quick usage, in the form of a "shot" or (maybe) w/a vortex generator. But not full-time usage.

The trick is, using Scuba tanks - or larger tanks - like welding supply tanks, in a group. Recharging them will take a bit, what w/the heating of the air, etc (I think Scuba tanks are filled in a large water tank to absorb the compressed airs' heat,). But these tanks are filled to 5000+psi. Can't remember what Scuba tanks are loaded to (3000psi?), but maybe easier packaging. 3-5 min running time may be rough..., but at least you won't need extra ballast... . The compressor you'd need would be the kind used a @ gas-supply shop (or their supplier). I'm thinking : not cheap... .

IIRC, from an article in HRyearbook, ~ '67,(maybe in CC, also) Keane used 4-6 Scuba tanks for one qtr mile run. Said the gasoline "hit" as hard as nitro. Of course, NHRA banned it... Article had a real good drawing layout of the controls needed. & of course, if used, could be used to dial-in any "boost" you want. W/the actual temp drop, you could really be near freezing temps for inlet air, , & therefore dial-in more boost, , but the learning curve, .

Always one of my favorite methods of supercharging, disappointed to see work (& info) on it stopped. Have long thought about using it at Bonneville, & doodling to see how it can be done... . Practicality/reality sucks...

Not a method of supercharging, but a way of getting more air into mill, is using a "vortex generator". Using compressed air to run the thing, would give you a nice multiple of return (volume) from usage. Something like 5 - 10 times (or more. Have heard up to 25+) amount of air initially used. Helps the engine "fill" the vacuum it sees at/in the manifold. Or at the carb/injector inlet(s). . Dick Datson researched & wrote about it, even this can use a lot of air.

HTH. Hope you post what you find out from using this. You have my un-divided attention. .

Marcus...

Last edited by nrgwizard; 02-05-2012 at 04:18 PM. Reason: Geez, I type slow...
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:32 AM   #33
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

More out of the box thinking

I beleve Peterbuilt and Cummings used turbo and roots type blowers together on there 2 stroke desiel engines.

Now turbos use relative free or waste energy but create alot of boost add this boost into your carbs with a roots style supercharger under them creating a push and pull system, the combination of the 2 might offset the power loss of the roots blower.

like I said way outside the box

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Old 02-03-2012, 10:43 AM   #34
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

ive got a head ache, see you on the salt buddy.............hehe
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:50 AM   #35
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

The oxy bottle idea was apparently successfully experimented with at Bonneville in the 50's (posted previously). In an old Floyd Clymer how-to book, he depicted a flathead roadster feeding regulated O2 thru a Hilborn. The summary was that an essentially unmodified engine took the roadster over 150. I wish I had the old book for reference. I think the title was "how to hop up Fords"
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:51 AM   #36
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

This is not about a free lunch it's about packing a BIG lunch. As has been mentioned it would take a lot of air and no matter how tight you pack it I don't think you have enough room. What you need is maybe three miles of high pressure hose and a quick release at the end of the run. Of course the volume would have to increased to compensate for the hose.
This reminds me of an idea someone had to use one bank of cylinders on a V8 to compress air for the other bank.
We see the fuel we put in the tank and we see the reading on our A/F ratio gauges. We just don't realize how much more air we run than fuel. It's a wonder there's enough left to breathe!
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:52 AM   #37
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Buddy, why not just pour in some of what yer drinkin? That should be worht some HP gains! BTW, we miss you in the Tuesday night chat!
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:06 AM   #38
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
The reason it takes a lot of HP to turn a blower is because it's pumping a LOT of air. My blower has two 650 cfm carbs on it...my shop compressor (a good old 5 hp unit) pumps about 20 cfm....

The cfm rating varies with pressure, so this is not really a fair comparison, but still, you get the idea.
So, what you're saying is that I should consider putting a Huffer on my Shop compressor. Hmmmm.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:13 AM   #39
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

just buy a turbo ! ........... 114mm should do it ! .......... steve
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Yeah, I guess it comes down to the same thing - you canīt get something for nothing.
Dumb idea actually.

Not a dumb idea or a new idea. I read in an old magazine, I believe it was from 1955, an add that showed an electrical driven supercharger that was utilized only for short bursts it required extra batterys to power it, which would charge up in normal driving then supply the necessary power for a short burst.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:23 AM   #41
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I think it was in the 60's that I saw a 33 Willys drag car in Hot Rod Magazine that had a second 4 cylinder engine in the trunk turning a blower that fed the main engine in the front. The title was something like "Windjammer Willys". The concept was to put no drag on the main engine and supercharge it with the motor in the back.

I guess it wasn't successful as I never saw another one. Maybe the weight of all that extra stuff wiped out any benefits. But is shows we hot rodders are always thinking.

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Old 02-03-2012, 12:09 PM   #42
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Here's another: Why not get a small gas turbine engine-- the kind that guys use to power RC planes, copters, and military apparatus, and use it to charge the intake of a piston engine?
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:48 PM   #43
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I saw this French liner at Bonneville in 2010. It ran on compressed air. I don't remember for sure, but I think they went over 200.


They filled the tanks with a scuba tank compressor. I think pure Oxygen would be the bomb, but there are safty issues in the case of a wreck and fire control you would have to look into.
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:59 PM   #44
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"Initial testing of various forms of the system was done on three different dragsters and one of Mickey Thompson's Ford Funny Cars, but in all instances, no full quarter-mile runs were attempted. Recently, however, Keane got together with Mickey Thompson and, utilizing Thompson's exotic dyno facility in Long Beach, accomplished an exhaustive testing program. The results were phenomenal. Where a 6-71 blown Boss 429 Ford engine on 20% nitro had produced 1360 horsepower, the same type of engine equipped with the bottled air system in place of the Rootes blower, burning only straight alcohol, produced 2400 horsepower at 6000 rpm! On gasoline, the system made about 1550 horsepower. This success was not easily achieved, as in one week of testing, Thompson reportedly ran 150 gallons of alcohol through the dyno engine."

The reason why the engine on compressed air made more power is that the compressed air tanks cary their own stored energy. All of the energy required to pressurize the tanks was done offline, i.e. the engine didn't have to work to comprees the air tanks. This idea is really similar to high voltage battery energy transfer in an electric car. plug it in to charge the battery (compress the air tanks), battery stores the energy & the drive motor converts the energy to motion or assists an IC engine thus increasing it's power. It's a rather ingenious idea, but really suited for special cases like drag racing where the runs are short enough, keeping the volume & weight of the tanks at a reasonable level.
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:00 PM   #45
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Here's another: Why not get a small gas turbine engine-- the kind that guys use to power RC planes, copters, and military apparatus, and use it to charge the intake of a piston engine?
There is a guy in England that did this with a hill climb car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11687nVdzdk

Ya it's a little OT, but, it can be done and works well.
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:15 PM   #46
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There is a guy in England that did this with a hill climb car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11687nVdzdk

Ya it's a little OT, but, it can be done and works well.
Outrageous. Yeah, this entire thread is pretty much OT.
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:59 PM   #47
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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There is a guy in England that did this with a hill climb car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11687nVdzdk

Ya it's a little OT, but, it can be done and works well.
Similar principle to the old Turbonique rocket driven blower.
In fact, people make small jet engines out of turbos, donīt they. Could something similar be done? Burn fuel in the normally exhaust driven part of the turbo, instead of driving it from the exhaust?
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:15 PM   #48
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

My math shows that, at 500 psi, you'd need 420 gallons of air per minute to support the specs on the first page. If a dragster only runs for 10 secs, that nets down to 70 gallons of compressed air (@500psi) to support 2335 cfm for 10secs... not accounting for the decreased pressure/cfm as the tank empties.
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:20 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by R Pope View Post
Way back when (70's? 80's?) HRM ran a story about someone (Smoky Yunick?) putting a venturi setup on top of a carburetor and shooting high pressure air through a jet, thus entraining a huge volume of air at medium pressure into the engine. A small belt-run compressor replenished the tank, and the system was activated by a full-throttle switch. Since you don't drive around at full throttle all the time-well, hopefully not!- the tank has time to refill between blasts, and more than enough duration for the "street Nationals"!
I think they got a hundred HP boost with little parasitic drag. Only about 6# boost on their initial model, I think, but worth considering.
I remember reading about similar experiments in Popular Mechanics or similar in the mid sixties. The experimental car was a street driven slant 6 Dodge. The guy had a small air compressor belted to the engine and a tank to hold compressed air at 600PSI. He did what you said with the venturi or entrainment effect. He could get extra boost for up to 30 seconds or a minute before the air was used up, enough to pass a line of cars or climb a hill. Then the compressor would slowly build up the pressure again.

In other words a form of stored power that could be used on demand, not something that would go continuously.

Don't know why you couldn't get this to work to double your HP for 10 to 15 seconds in a drag race then refill the bottle. But NOS would likely be simpler.

In other words there is no reason it could not work but only for short bursts of extra power.
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:21 PM   #50
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by Don's Hot Rods View Post
I think it was in the 60's that I saw a 33 Willys drag car in Hot Rod Magazine that had a second 4 cylinder engine in the trunk turning a blower that fed the main engine in the front. The title was something like "Windjammer Willys". The concept was to put no drag on the main engine and supercharge it with the motor in the back.

I guess it wasn't successful as I never saw another one. Maybe the weight of all that extra stuff wiped out any benefits. But is shows we hot rodders are always thinking.

Don
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:22 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Dyce View Post
I saw this French liner at Bonneville in 2010. It ran on compressed air. I don't remember for sure, but I think they went over 200. They filled the tanks with a scuba tank compressor. I think pure Oxygen would be the bomb, but there are safty issues in the case of a wreck and fire control you would have to look into.
Dyce, I think they actually only went 60 with that
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:39 PM   #52
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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The cylinder volume calc is pi (3.141) x r2 x stroke. Then multiply that for number of cylinders. That is the volume for 1 rpm. Then times that volume by the wot rpms. That is the volume you would need per minute. Multiply that times how long a run lasts. Add a bunch for stable pressure throughout the run.
Close but the 4way stroke engine has to make 2 full revolutions to displace dull engine displacement so the calculation would be

Pi x R2 x stroke ũ2 for correct cid multiply rpm for volume at a given range. You also have to estimate volumetric efficiency as a %.

Pressure is a measure of restriction also. I have been playing with blowers (roots and centrifugal )but and turbos for a short while. Im only 28. Lol but compound turboing will reach the magical 1:1 where boost matches drive pressure and I personally think turbos are the way to go with less hp required to drive one
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:50 PM   #53
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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The reason why the engine on compressed air made more power is that the compressed air tanks cary their own stored energy. All of the energy required to pressurize the tanks was done offline, i.e. the engine didn't have to work to comprees the air tanks. This idea is really similar to high voltage battery energy transfer in an electric car. plug it in to charge the battery (compress the air tanks), battery stores the energy & the drive motor converts the energy to motion or assists an IC engine thus increasing it's power. It's a rather ingenious idea, but really suited for special cases like drag racing where the runs are short enough, keeping the volume & weight of the tanks at a reasonable level.
This is exactly why 38Flattie is pursuing this idea. You add the energy while the car is in the pits or staging lanes. The discharge the energy on the run.

As many have stated, the big issue is only size of the very large tanks required. It can and will work, just a different mthod of supplying pressurized air to the engine. The issue is to have enough stored for a complete run. The pressure drop would give some very cold temps and air density, making it even more efffective.

As another thought, you could build some type of large valve in the air system where you would start and run up on NA power, then switch over to use the compressed air for the final push at the end. This would take less total compressed air and enable somewhat smaller tank volume.

I do agree that drag racing would be a lot easier to implement as it is a much shorter duration of time required; and therefore a lot less tank volume needed.

Turbos work so well because they capture the wasted energy in the exhaust. The heat energy is used to help spin up the turbo impeller, rather than crankshaft power. The exhaust heat energy is usually just lost, a turbo helps to capture some of that back.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:51 PM   #54
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Dividing 5500 by 2 as suggested ( 2 crank revs per vol ) and correcting cu in to cu ft produces 582.8 cfm. 10 min run time should require 5828 cu ft of air. This would require a tank 18x18x18 feet at 0 psig. I don't remember how to calculate he change in volume when you compress air, but as you compress it the size of the storage tank would shrink.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:00 PM   #55
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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since were thinking outside the box here.

Since engine drag is your concern why not drive a centrifical supercharger off the drive shaft, you would have alot more gearing advantage and less engine drag.

And as for onboard air, you can get 2500psi or better in a oxy bottle from your torch. but its very heavy.

MrC.
Driving it off of the driveshaft will still be a HP drain.

Weight is no issue for a LSR car- it's just a matter of where you put the weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrgwizard View Post
Hey, '38;

What you propose should work. Just need to use large enough tanks, & get the air management down. Learning curve would be tough. Keane might help - think he's in Canada??

You don't want to use a compressor to "charge" the mill (or the supply tanks) you'd run, or you may as well haul a RR Mustang engine in a trailer behind you, as a pump. & even then... . A small aux pump would work on the street, to charge small tanks, for occasional, quick usage, in the form of a "shot" or (maybe) w/a vortex generator. But not full-time usage.

The trick is, using Scuba tanks - or larger tanks - like welding supply tanks, in a group. Recharging them will take a bit, what w/the heating of the air, etc (I think Scuba tanks are filled in a large water tank to absorb the compressed airs' heat,). But these tanks are filled to 5000+psi. Can't remember what Scuba tanks are loaded to (3000psi?), but maybe easier packaging. 3-5 min running time may be rough..., but at least you won't need extra ballast... . The compressor you'd need would be the kind used a @ gas-supply shop (or their supplier). I'm thinking : not cheap... .

IIRC, from an article in HRyearbook, ~ '67,(maybe in CC, also) Keane used 4-6 Scuba tanks for one qtr mile run. Said the gasoline "hit" as hard as nitro. Of course, NHRA banned it... Article had a real good drawing layout of the controls needed. & of course, if used, could be used to dial-in any "boost" you want. W/the actual temp drop, you could really be near freezing temps for inlet air, , & therefore dial-in more boost, , but the learning curve, .

Always one of my favorite methods of supercharging, disappointed to see work (& info) on it stopped. Have long thought about using it at Bonneville, & doodling to see how it can be done... . Practicality/reality sucks...

Not a method of supercharging, but a way of getting more air into mill, is using a "vortex generator". Using compressed air to run the thing, would give you a nice multiple of return (volume) from usage. Something like 5 - 10 times (or more. Have heard up to 25+) amount of air initially used. Helps the engine "fill" the vacuum it sees at/in the manifold. Or at the carb/injector inlet(s). . Dick Datson researched & wrote about it, & Greg @ Salt-to-Salt was playing w/it, but I don't think he used it, due to class rules, or some-such. Even this can use a lot of air.

HTH. Hope you post what you find out from using this. You have my un-divided attention. .

Marcus...
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Talking to Keane is a good idea! I agree, the regulators and such won't be cheap, but adding HP never is!

Quote:
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Buddy, why not just pour in some of what yer drinkin? That should be worht some HP gains! BTW, we miss you in the Tuesday night chat!
You should try it!

..but I must warn you-it's considered a 'fuel'!

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Originally Posted by steve norcal View Post
just buy a turbo ! ........... 114mm should do it ! .......... steve
Turbos move me from Vintage class, to Modified class, so it's not an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51Merc View Post
Here's another: Why not get a small gas turbine engine-- the kind that guys use to power RC planes, copters, and military apparatus, and use it to charge the intake of a piston engine?
'Pony' motors are not allowed, and besides- I'm intrigued by this idea!

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Originally Posted by Rogi View Post
"Initial testing of various forms of the system was done on three different dragsters and one of Mickey Thompson's Ford Funny Cars, but in all instances, no full quarter-mile runs were attempted. Recently, however, Keane got together with Mickey Thompson and, utilizing Thompson's exotic dyno facility in Long Beach, accomplished an exhaustive testing program. The results were phenomenal. Where a 6-71 blown Boss 429 Ford engine on 20% nitro had produced 1360 horsepower, the same type of engine equipped with the bottled air system in place of the Rootes blower, burning only straight alcohol, produced 2400 horsepower at 6000 rpm! On gasoline, the system made about 1550 horsepower. This success was not easily achieved, as in one week of testing, Thompson reportedly ran 150 gallons of alcohol through the dyno engine."

The reason why the engine on compressed air made more power is that the compressed air tanks cary their own stored energy. All of the energy required to pressurize the tanks was done offline, i.e. the engine didn't have to work to comprees the air tanks. This idea is really similar to high voltage battery energy transfer in an electric car. plug it in to charge the battery (compress the air tanks), battery stores the energy & the drive motor converts the energy to motion or assists an IC engine thus increasing it's power. It's a rather ingenious idea, but really suited for special cases like drag racing where the runs are short enough, keeping the volume & weight of the tanks at a reasonable level.
I agree, and this exercise is all about stored energy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotit View Post
Close but the 4way stroke engine has to make 2 full revolutions to displace dull engine displacement so the calculation would be

Pi x R2 x stroke ũ2 for correct cid multiply rpm for volume at a given range. You also have to estimate volumetric efficiency as a %.

Pressure is a measure of restriction also. I have been playing with blowers (roots and centrifugal )but and turbos for a short while. Im only 28. Lol but compound turboing will reach the magical 1:1 where boost matches drive pressure and I personally think turbos are the way to go with less hp required to drive one
Compounding blowers only compounds the parasitic loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 View Post
This is exactly why 38Flattie is pursuing this idea. You add the energy while the car is in the pits or staging lanes. The discharge the energy on the run.

As many have stated, the big issue is only size of the very large tanks required. It can and will work, just a different mthod of supplying pressurized air to the engine. The issue is to have enough stored for a complete run. The pressure drop would give some very cold temps and air density, making it even more efffective.

As another thought, you could build some type of large valve in the air system where you would start and run up on NA power, then switch over to use the compressed air for the final push at the end. This would take less total compressed air and enable somewhat smaller tank volume.

I do agree that drag racing would be a lot easier to implement as it is a much shorter duration of time required; and therefore a lot less tank volume needed.

Turbos work so well because they capture the wasted energy in the exhaust. The heat energy is used to help spin up the turbo impeller, rather than crankshaft power. The exhaust heat energy is usually just lost, a turbo helps to capture some of that back.
Another guy that gets it! I agree that it would be better suited for drag racing, but think it can be done.

I think the key is making the frame the 'storage tank', or at least a major part of the 'storage tank'. Obviously, the welds will need to be x-rayed and certified, to at least 5000 PSI. SCBA bottles could be integrated safely into the frame, then the whole storage system filled at about 3500 PSI.

Easy or cheap? NO!

Fun,and if it works-just like Mastercard, it will be priceless!
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:49 PM   #56
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Check the rules guys first. I believe this has come up before and was a No Go.
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:43 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Tman View Post
Dyce, I think they actually only went 60 with that
I never did see it run or look to see how they did. When I talked to them they were shooting for alot more speed....

One more thing to consider. You really don't need the boost through the whole run. When you run a car with limited traction on nitrous you don't hit it out of the hole. You get the car rolling and hit it in the higher gears. You could save the boost for high gear or the first or second mile. Just a thought.
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:32 AM   #58
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Hey, 38Flattie;

Do not even think of trying to use the frame as an air tank. Any real pressure = boom, or at least leaks. You need the design safety of a round cyl. & they need to be mounted in brackets, surrounded by (ballistic nylon, at least) mesh to keep them in place in case of a mishap. If you don't know, even an arc strike on a tank will result in a non-fill, = reject tank for safety reasons.

The tanks I was thinking about, are (similar to) the nitrogen tanks. ~ 4 1/2-5' long (including nozzle/shutoff valve), ~ 11" dia. Scuba tanks to fill in the "niches". You've got a big trunk - may as well use it. Nitrogen bottle for a "bumper" (protecting the valve would be an issue, + safe mounting. Hey, what are challenges for, right? .) , only, what, 34 more to go??? . Seriously. the more psi you can safely stuff into a tank, the more "running" time you'll get from a given volume/tank.

38Chevy454 had it correct, I forgot to mention that initial running would be N/A. Maybe even for 1/2 mile. I'm sure you could spin the smoothies w/o the boost. & here is where the vortex generator could come into play, until the large bypass valve came online. Keane did something similar, on one of the test dragsters. Not sure what M/T came up with. & the temp drop will be substantial. I'd guess almost as much worth as the boost, in terms of lack-of-detonation. Somewhere I read a graph on value of the amb temp drop vs % hp increase. WAG here, (can't remember, so) something like 1% for each degree ( or 10 ?) drop. Doesn't sound right, but it was a crazy amount. Oh, & your air had better be *really* dry.

Seriously, I'd guess maybe 9-10 nitrogen tanks in trunk, w/maybe 10-12 Scuba tanks also. Although, I'm assuming an empty trunk, so maybe not. I followed your build thread(s), but don't remember .

I suppose one could use the available space in the trunk, & then fill the passenger side, or back seat, w/nitrogen tanks, up to the bottom of the window. I *really* want to see a video of you talking your way into that one, & getting it passed by tech. . Given the right mood & BS session, I'm sure I could come up w/some "it's actually safer this way, because..." . Plausible deny-ability?

BTW:

Article, or one of them, is: Compressed Air Dragster. HR yrbk #11, 1971, p304-309. '67 - pfffft. At least I had 1 # right.(rollseyes) Anyways, article has *lots* of good pics n descriptions. Keanes' addy as of then:

Bob Keane
Keane Engineering Co
1181-B East Elm
Fullerton, Calif. 92631

At least it's a starting point. Don't know why I was thinking Canada, maybe from a later article? Hope you find him. Would be great to get more info on this, if he's willing to cough it up.

I can't remember the other articles I read on it. I've got them somewhere, but???

Hope you do this!~

Marcus...
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Old 02-04-2012, 02:14 AM   #59
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by aerorocket View Post
Not a dumb idea or a new idea. I read in an old magazine, I believe it was from 1955, an add that showed an electrical driven supercharger that was utilized only for short bursts it required extra batterys to power it, which would charge up in normal driving then supply the necessary power for a short burst.
Electrically driven superchargers are already on the market:

http://www.gizmag.com/controlled-pow...charger/20037/

http://www.rotrex.com/Home.aspx

http://www.force-flow.com/info_overview.aspx

So far they're less efficient than mechanically driven superchargers or turbos, and whether or not they even work is debatable.

BMW is currently working on electrically assisted turbochargers to reduce lag:

http://gas2.org/2011/11/03/bmw-worki...-turbocharger/
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Old 02-04-2012, 02:25 AM   #60
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I got a good look at the French air powered car, they may have been funnin' me, but they told me they were running 18,500 psi (not a typo) to hold enough air to get the speeds they wanted.

I would have called BS but the tanks were some kind of composite, looked to be filament wound setup.

I was impressed.

I forget how long they told me it would take to charge the onboard tanks, but it was more than a day.

That was with the scuba looking compressor.

I have to agree with those saying you don't need that much air, you would be much better off only boosting in top gear, or top and next to top.



If you want a "quick and dirty" way to up the efficiency of the blower (offset some of the drag) that I haven't seen addressed in the rules.

It's been suggested on the net, so the benefit is unlikely to be what is suggested, but worth a try.

It was called an air amplifier, don't know what it's proper name is, supposedly sold in McMaster Carr catalogs for clearing sidewalks and the like with compressed air.

Mounted in the inlet duct (admittedly of a turbo) it was supposed to do great things for performance similar to the augmenter that Smokey worked on (as mentioned previously).

Not nearly as developed, and I suspect the majority of the benefit would be from the cooling effect of the expanding air increasing the density before compression (slight as it may be).

IMHO tech couldn't nail you on the "compressed air supercharging" rule because any pressure increase would cause a flow reversal (blow out the intake).

You wouldn't need nearly as much air.


As for electric supercharging, it could be done, but you will essentially have a significant portion of one of the electric streamliners to cram in your car somehow to have enough AH to run a powerful enough motor to drive a compressor large enough to support the airflow.

How picky are they about turbos in vintage class?

Does it include centrifical superchargers?

Those use less power than a roots blower, of course so does a Lysholm.

Does it have to be a "GMC" style?
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I mean Ive got an angle grinder and a hot metal pump who says I can't make my own manifolds
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:56 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by 38FLATTIE View Post
Actually, I will drive around all the time at WOt. This is for a Cadillac flathead powered Bonneville car, so I only need to power it for 3 miles at a time.
I like people like you, we get it. Sure some of the stuff we say is just thinking out loud, and it doesn't mean that we are going to do it today, but hopefully, one day...

So have you thought about a gas powered air compressor, you wouldn't need as large of a tank, you could keep the psi high enough that you could use it and it wouldn't create strain on your drive train at all.

4x4 guys do this so they can pump their tires after treckin' around, but those really are nothing more than glorified airbag pumps, but if you could find a modern air compressing engine you could pull it off more easily than MASSIVE tanks of air.
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:06 AM   #62
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work!

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Originally Posted by RichFox View Post
Check the rules guys first. I believe this has come up before and was a No Go.
I will check with them, after I decide on a firm course of action, that I believe will work.

Even if I'm not allowed to run in a class, I might think about running time only, just to see the HP gains. The French liner proved they will allow the bottles, if mounted properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyce View Post
I never did see it run or look to see how they did. When I talked to them they were shooting for alot more speed....

One more thing to consider. You really don't need the boost through the whole run. When you run a car with limited traction on nitrous you don't hit it out of the hole. You get the car rolling and hit it in the higher gears. You could save the boost for high gear or the first or second mile. Just a thought.
Yes, this is definitely an option!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nrgwizard View Post
Hey, 38Flattie;

Do not even think of trying to use the frame as an air tank. Any real pressure = boom, or at least leaks. You need the design safety of a round cyl. & they need to be mounted in brackets, surrounded by (ballistic nylon, at least) mesh to keep them in place in case of a mishap. If you don't know, even an arc strike on a tank will result in a non-fill, = reject tank for safety reasons.

The tanks I was thinking about, are (similar to) the nitrogen tanks. ~ 4 1/2-5' long (including nozzle/shutoff valve), ~ 11" dia. Scuba tanks to fill in the "niches". You've got a big trunk - may as well use it. Nitrogen bottle for a "bumper" (protecting the valve would be an issue, + safe mounting. Hey, what are challenges for, right? .) , only, what, 34 more to go??? . Seriously. the more psi you can safely stuff into a tank, the more "running" time you'll get from a given volume/tank.

38Chevy454 had it correct, I forgot to mention that initial running would be N/A. Maybe even for 1/2 mile. I'm sure you could spin the smoothies w/o the boost. & here is where the vortex generator could come into play, until the large bypass valve came online. Keane did something similar, on one of the test dragsters. Not sure what M/T came up with. & the temp drop will be substantial. I'd guess almost as much worth as the boost, in terms of lack-of-detonation. Somewhere I read a graph on value of the amb temp drop vs % hp increase. WAG here, (can't remember, so) something like 1% for each degree ( or 10 ?) drop. Doesn't sound right, but it was a crazy amount. Oh, & your air had better be *really* dry.

Seriously, I'd guess maybe 9-10 nitrogen tanks in trunk, w/maybe 10-12 Scuba tanks also. Although, I'm assuming an empty trunk, so maybe not. I followed your build thread(s), but don't remember .

I suppose one could use the available space in the trunk, & then fill the passenger side, or back seat, w/nitrogen tanks, up to the bottom of the window. I *really* want to see a video of you talking your way into that one, & getting it passed by tech. . Given the right mood & BS session, I'm sure I could come up w/some "it's actually safer this way, because..." . Plausible deny-ability?

BTW:

Article, or one of them, is: Compressed Air Dragster. HR yrbk #11, 1971, p304-309. '67 - pfffft. At least I had 1 # right.(rollseyes) Anyways, article has *lots* of good pics n descriptions. Keanes' addy as of then:

Bob Keane
Keane Engineering Co
1181-B East Elm
Fullerton, Calif. 92631

At least it's a starting point. Don't know why I was thinking Canada, maybe from a later article? Hope you find him. Would be great to get more info on this, if he's willing to cough it up.

I can't remember the other articles I read on it. I've got them somewhere, but???

Hope you do this!~

Marcus...
Thanks for the info!

When I mentioned using the frame, I didn't mean the stock frame. I still think utilizing the frame is a good storage idea. I mean to make a specialized frame, constructed and certified for this porpose. The Art Malone drag car did this, or so I'm told.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ray View Post
Electrically driven superchargers are already on the market:

http://www.gizmag.com/controlled-pow...charger/20037/

http://www.rotrex.com/Home.aspx

http://www.force-flow.com/info_overview.aspx

So far they're less efficient than mechanically driven superchargers or turbos, and whether or not they even work is debatable.

BMW is currently working on electrically assisted turbochargers to reduce lag:

http://gas2.org/2011/11/03/bmw-worki...-turbocharger/
Quote:
Originally Posted by nexxussian View Post
I got a good look at the French air powered car, they may have been funnin' me, but they told me they were running 18,500 psi (not a typo) to hold enough air to get the speeds they wanted.

I would have called BS but the tanks were some kind of composite, looked to be filament wound setup.

I was impressed.

I forget how long they told me it would take to charge the onboard tanks, but it was more than a day.

That was with the scuba looking compressor.

I have to agree with those saying you don't need that much air, you would be much better off only boosting in top gear, or top and next to top.



If you want a "quick and dirty" way to up the efficiency of the blower (offset some of the drag) that I haven't seen addressed in the rules.

It's been suggested on the net, so the benefit is unlikely to be what is suggested, but worth a try.

It was called an air amplifier, don't know what it's proper name is, supposedly sold in McMaster Carr catalogs for clearing sidewalks and the like with compressed air.

Mounted in the inlet duct (admittedly of a turbo) it was supposed to do great things for performance similar to the augmenter that Smokey worked on (as mentioned previously).

Not nearly as developed, and I suspect the majority of the benefit would be from the cooling effect of the expanding air increasing the density before compression (slight as it may be).

IMHO tech couldn't nail you on the "compressed air supercharging" rule because any pressure increase would cause a flow reversal (blow out the intake).

You wouldn't need nearly as much air.


As for electric supercharging, it could be done, but you will essentially have a significant portion of one of the electric streamliners to cram in your car somehow to have enough AH to run a powerful enough motor to drive a compressor large enough to support the airflow.

How picky are they about turbos in vintage class?

Does it include centrifical superchargers?

Those use less power than a roots blower, of course so does a Lysholm.

Does it have to be a "GMC" style?
Electric, roots, centrifugal-they all have a parasitic loss-goes back to "you can't get something for nothing."

No, they don't have to be GMC style-they can be any style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jalopy Journalist View Post
I like people like you, we get it. Sure some of the stuff we say is just thinking out loud, and it doesn't mean that we are going to do it today, but hopefully, one day...

So have you thought about a gas powered air compressor, you wouldn't need as large of a tank, you could keep the psi high enough that you could use it and it wouldn't create strain on your drive train at all.

4x4 guys do this so they can pump their tires after treckin' around, but those really are nothing more than glorified airbag pumps, but if you could find a modern air compressing engine you could pull it off more easily than MASSIVE tanks of air.
Haha! I'm glad there are other 'crazies' out there!

An gas powered air compressor would work, and so would a seperate engine to run the supercharger.

That's not what I'm looking to accomplish, though- I'm looking at an alternative way to supercharge the car, and get more HP from the engine, with the same amount of boost.

I realize not everyone understands why I possibly would want to go this route. That's OK, because I don't understand the 'cookie cutter' mentality, either!
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:30 AM   #63
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I know this isn't what your after,but, Anyone else remember a Willys with a Chrysler hemi in HRM (way back when)? It had an engine in the back powering the blower that fed what looked like sewer pipe to the front mounted motor.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:57 AM   #64
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Hey, 38Flattie & nexxussian;

The air amplifier is the same principle as the vortex generator, as does the air curtain (may be the same thing as an air amplifier). & that is what I was thinking of in the 1st place. Although, one of the neat things w/a vortex generator is, you can get either hot *or* cold out of it, depending on which way it's set up. The air vortex gen needs ~ 125psi to work well, the air amps, I don't remember.

The idea of the air amplifier is, the ability to get many multiples of air out of it, compared to what is input into it. It isn't supercharging, but from the engines' point of view, the extra air tries to fill the void that the vacuum creates. So instead of X" of vacuum, it tries to get to 0" (normal atmospheric pressure). So you use this thing at the inlet, & since the inlet can never get to 0 while the engine is running... . In N/A form, the engine will respond quicker, as if supercharging is applied, at least up to 0" manifold pressure. Engines w/turbos will respond much quicker, as they will w/superchargers, since the 'charger doesn't have to work as hard to get a given volume of air to gulp.

38, I know you took off the front fenders for aero, but the big pontoons (F&R) could hide some Scuba tanks. You'd need a lot of fairly large dia (WAG: up to 1 1/2" ?) plumbing, & I think the new name for the car might be Medusa or Plumbers' Nightmare. . Or maybe Bottle Baby, w/appropriate sexy WWII-type graphics on the doors, or trunk... .

I still think you're going to have serious trouble w/a frame doubling as an air tank. For extremely low pressure (just enough to have pressure to see if there are cracks starting - what, maybe 10psi?), maybe, but I wouldn't want to be around it. Considering you have to weld on it - well - there's a lot of ways to get hurt/maimed &/or die. This is easily avoidable, - for me. I've also heard of the idea to use the rollcage as a tank, but it's too small, volume-wise, & again, the welded thing. I know tanks have the end cap(s) welded, but they don't have to support anything, nor are they subjected to active structural stresses & vibration. I'd pilot your car w/the tanks strapped next to me, in the trunk, the doors, etc., but wouldn't get anywhere near it, if I knew the frame was a hi-pressure container. Not to be rude or throw water on your idea. If you can find out how to make this work, I'm ready to be convinced. .

Looks like it's time to move the fuel cell. .

Still want to see this work.

BTW: I can see this bumping you into the "fuel" class,*if* even allowed @ Bville.

However, maybe at the Ohio (or wherever the new venue is) runway. & it's what, ~ 1 mile? So less air needed. (X-Maxton). .

Marcus...
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:45 PM   #65
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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The cylinder volume calc is pi (3.141) x r2 x stroke. Then multiply that for number of cylinders. That is the volume for 1 rpm. Then times that volume by the wot rpms. That is the volume you would need per minute. Multiply that times how long a run lasts. Add a bunch for stable pressure throughout the run.
Cylinder volume is (B/2)^2 x pi x S, or B x B x PI/4 x S. You can get total displacement by then multiplying by the number of cylinders with either formula.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:20 PM   #66
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

38FLATTIE, as if you don't have enough to think about...how about this? Suppose carrying enough "air" is prohibitive to make a 3 mile run. However, atmospheric air contains only about 21 % oxygen. Soooo, what would happen if you were able to mix pure compressed oxygen with atmospheric air. It seems that the effect would be very similar to nitrous oxide. Just more food for thought Mr 38.
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:42 PM   #67
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:24 PM   #68
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Check out a "venturi air horn" on Google. They are air powered and discharge about 20 times what they consume with no moving parts. They are used to vent explosive hazard from confined spaces or to vent cooling air into extremely hot ( refractory) environment.
These things move free air, not into a pressurized condition under normal conditions - so it might not work but there's some technology here that moves 20 times as much air.

http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipm...530&catid=s239

It's basically a cast ring with a 1" air inlet fitting attached to a large funnel or horn. It's open on both ends. Bigger they are the more they use and more they move but I don't know if the 20 factor changes. Biggest one I saw was 14" and that thing would blow you right over.


BTW, top fueler only turns 950 revs under load with a burnout and a full run not counting idle time.
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:35 PM   #69
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I don't know if you can play with different types of fuel , but "nitro-propane" is a carrier of extra oxygen. Not cheap.
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:35 AM   #70
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I don't know if you can play with different types of fuel , but "nitro-propane" is a carrier of extra oxygen. Not cheap.
IIRC he's running in "gas" class, so no tinkering with the fuel chemistry.

If he chooses to run in "fuel" he can run that, or nitromethane, hydrazine, unicorn burps, illudium Q36, ....
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I mean Ive got an angle grinder and a hot metal pump who says I can't make my own manifolds
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:33 AM   #71
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I thought I saw a picture from HR that had the roots blower running off the rear end?. I guess boost would increase throughout the run, better for salt then drag?
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:35 AM   #72
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Can't you use liquid oxygen? I believe the density ration of gas to liquid is around 1:100 which means 100x the oxygen in a container vs a gaseous state. For 3 miles you should not need to cool the oxygen to keep it in liquid form if you use cryogenic containers. If you come up with a way to feed liquid oxygen into multiple air tanks in timed, measured spurts to fill the tanks to capacity, which would be 100x less than amount of air(100% capacity in gaseous form) then use the heat from the exhaust to heat the liquid oxygen in the multiple tanks to it's gaseous state then feed those into the intake using one way valves in a timed release thus creating a continuous flow of compressed air.
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:52 AM   #73
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

ok.. since we are already miles out of the box.. how's about .. this.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...le-conversion/
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:06 AM   #74
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

My 2cents worth, I'm no expert in this subject but just from reading here there is a few variable versions available, do you want to do away with the blower completely. Triggerman alluded to an idea above, using pure compessed air is more efficient than the 21% freely available in atmosphere, could you reduce the drag on the blower buy running it slower but with a better air mixture enhanced with pure oxygen injected in there somewhere and hereby making the tanks you carry more efficient and longer lasting, all up a bit of a tradeoff of what you originally suggested and I dont know how different this would be from just using NOS. Love what you are doing with the 38.
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:49 AM   #75
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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The cylinder volume calc is pi (3.141) x r2 x stroke. Then multiply that for number of cylinders. That is the volume for 1 rpm. Then times that volume by the wot rpms. That is the volume you would need per minute. Multiply that times how long a run lasts. Add a bunch for stable pressure throughout the run.
These calculations would be for a 2 stroke engine. A 4 stroke cylinder fires every second revolution so the formula above would be for 2 revolutions of a 4 stroke or 1/2 as much air.

If you used compressed air, it would take a huge amount. Size 300 cylinders have a 2990 cubic inch volume and can be pressurized to 2400 psi so they hold about 300 cubic feet of air at atmospheric pressure 150 cubic ft at twice atmospheric pressure which would be about 14 lb boost.

Since all you really need is oxygen out of the air, a better way to do it would be to use pure oxygen. You would need 1/4 as much and don't need the pressure.
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:51 AM   #76
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by D_Lazaris View Post
I thought I saw a picture from HR that had the roots blower running off the rear end?. I guess boost would increase throughout the run, better for salt then drag?
That would add drag just as if it was conected to the engine, which it would be.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:16 AM   #77
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Hey, 38Flattie & nexxussian;

The air amplifier is the same principle as the vortex generator, as does the air curtain (may be the same thing as an air amplifier). & that is what I was thinking of in the 1st place. Although, one of the neat things w/a vortex generator is, you can get either hot *or* cold out of it, depending on which way it's set up. The air vortex gen needs ~ 125psi to work well, the air amps, I don't remember.


BTW: I can see this bumping you into the "fuel" class,*if* even allowed @ Bville.

Marcus...

[QUOTE=31Vicky with a hemi;7420005]Check out a "venturi air horn" on Google. They are air powered and discharge about 20 times what they consume with no moving parts. They are used to vent explosive hazard from confined spaces or to vent cooling air into extremely hot ( refractory) environment.
These things move free air, not into a pressurized condition under normal conditions - so it might not work but there's some technology here that moves 20 times as much air.

http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipm...530&catid=s239
QUOTE]


Guys, I'm going to follow up on this idea-I think it's great, and has definite merit!

Marcus, I agree the frame idea was bone-headed, and have given up on that idea! I also agree, this would move me to a 'fuel' class, if I can even get it approved!

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Originally Posted by stainlesssteelrat View Post
ok.. since we are already miles out of the box.. how's about .. this.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...le-conversion/

That is thinking outside of the box! I've seen banger engine converted to air compressors, but never a cylinder converted into a huffer!


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38FLATTIE, as if you don't have enough to think about...how about this? Suppose carrying enough "air" is prohibitive to make a 3 mile run. However, atmospheric air contains only about 21 % oxygen. Soooo, what would happen if you were able to mix pure compressed oxygen with atmospheric air. It seems that the effect would be very similar to nitrous oxide. Just more food for thought Mr 38.

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Can't you use liquid oxygen? I believe the density ration of gas to liquid is around 1:100 which means 100x the oxygen in a container vs a gaseous state. For 3 miles you should not need to cool the oxygen to keep it in liquid form if you use cryogenic containers. If you come up with a way to feed liquid oxygen into multiple air tanks in timed, measured spurts to fill the tanks to capacity, which would be 100x less than amount of air(100% capacity in gaseous form) then use the heat from the exhaust to heat the liquid oxygen in the multiple tanks to it's gaseous state then feed those into the intake using one way valves in a timed release thus creating a continuous flow of compressed air.

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Originally Posted by beater40 View Post
My 2cents worth, I'm no expert in this subject but just from reading here there is a few variable versions available, do you want to do away with the blower completely. Triggerman alluded to an idea above, using pure compessed air is more efficient than the 21% freely available in atmosphere, could you reduce the drag on the blower buy running it slower but with a better air mixture enhanced with pure oxygen injected in there somewhere and hereby making the tanks you carry more efficient and longer lasting, all up a bit of a tradeoff of what you originally suggested and I dont know how different this would be from just using NOS. Love what you are doing with the 38.
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These calculations would be for a 2 stroke engine. A 4 stroke cylinder fires every second revolution so the formula above would be for 2 revolutions of a 4 stroke or 1/2 as much air.

If you used compressed air, it would take a huge amount. Size 300 cylinders have a 2990 cubic inch volume and can be pressurized to 2400 psi so they hold about 300 cubic feet of air at atmospheric pressure 150 cubic ft at twice atmospheric pressure which would be about 14 lb boost.

Since all you really need is oxygen out of the air, a better way to do it would be to use pure oxygen. You would need 1/4 as much and don't need the pressure.
Guys, pure oxygen would be a great thing to be able to use! Liquid O2 converted to gas O2 would be even better!

...except- pure O2 injection has been tried, and works on a limited basis. If the mix is even a little off-BOOM!

Big SCBA bottles hold 120 CF @ 4351 PSI, and are tested to 6744 PSI. In addition, the bottle measures only 25" x 7"

I think getting enough air on board is possible-Now how in the hell can I run off of atmospheric air, and inject the compressed air at a measured PSI and volumn, and get the proper fuel-air ratio?

Figure out yet that I'm using YOUR ideas to help solve MY issues? LOL!

Thanks for all the help!
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:35 AM   #78
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

oxygen would be treated the same as nitrous oxide. Bump you into fuel class. Which isn't all bad.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:24 PM   #79
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

38;

If you don't have the article, or can't lay your hands on one, I could photocopy it & send it to you. Drawings & pics are worth, oh, say, 100,000+ words...

The N/A -> C/A would be done via a seal-able flapper-type valve, at what ever car speed you choose. It's a very quick change-over, somewhat similar to nitrous. This could be accomplished w/an electric button on the steering wheel, activating a solenoid, giving you control of when, so's you know when the "hit" occurs. I personally would treat it as a gear shift, backpedal, hit it, & repedal. I suppose you could use something similar to the old ACCEL turbo kit valve, which was a bit more gradual.

Just so's we're on the same page (?), this replaces the blower/intercooler, etc.

If you're trying to inject the compressed air into the standard system, I'd inject it below the blower, but the fuel had better be perfect at the same time. I think this is way too complicated, at least for me. Suppose it's not much worse than Nitrous, but I still think the original idea is capable of breaking any &/or all of the engine parts, & then some. .

Now iffen you could only figure out how to liquify air, for a small(er) container, reasonably. HA!, that reasonable is the kicker... .

Marcus...
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:52 PM   #80
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

BTW, 38;

Forgot to add:

We here are using *YOUR* $$$, to see something we'd like to do, done. LOL.

A/F ratio would be done as usual, but calculating for the increased atmospheres, to get a baseline. Since it's available, I'd also use a wideband to help. N/A may be a bit rich, esp at Bville, but shouldn't change when under "boost", since it's a closed system. So where ever you tune/dyno it, what ever you set it at, is what it should run at, where ever you are. In theory, even if you get into, & under, the water in the famed Bville ditch.. .

PSI control + volume would be, most likely, a spl made regulator, along w/the correct dia hoses/fitting. Maybe mil-surplus, but I'd be surprised.

Marcus...
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:07 PM   #81
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Uh Buddy how about a slave engine to run the blower in the trunk you can set it up to use the same fuel................
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:02 PM   #82
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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38;

If you don't have the article, or can't lay your hands on one, I could photocopy it & send it to you. Drawings & pics are worth, oh, say, 100,000+ words...

The N/A -> C/A would be done via a seal-able flapper-type valve, at what ever car speed you choose. It's a very quick change-over, somewhat similar to nitrous. This could be accomplished w/an electric button on the steering wheel, activating a solenoid, giving you control of when, so's you know when the "hit" occurs. I personally would treat it as a gear shift, backpedal, hit it, & repedal. I suppose you could use something similar to the old ACCEL turbo kit valve, which was a bit more gradual.

Just so's we're on the same page (?), this replaces the blower/intercooler, etc.

If you're trying to inject the compressed air into the standard system, I'd inject it below the blower, but the fuel had better be perfect at the same time. I think this is way too complicated, at least for me. Suppose it's not much worse than Nitrous, but I still think the original idea is capable of breaking any &/or all of the engine parts, & then some. .

Now iffen you could only figure out how to liquify air, for a small(er) container, reasonably. HA!, that reasonable is the kicker... .

Marcus...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrgwizard View Post
BTW, 38;

Forgot to add:

We here are using *YOUR* $$$, to see something we'd like to do, done. LOL.

A/F ratio would be done as usual, but calculating for the increased atmospheres, to get a baseline. Since it's available, I'd also use a wideband to help. N/A may be a bit rich, esp at Bville, but shouldn't change when under "boost", since it's a closed system. So where ever you tune/dyno it, what ever you set it at, is what it should run at, where ever you are. In theory, even if you get into, & under, the water in the famed Bville ditch.. .

PSI control + volume would be, most likely, a spl made regulator, along w/the correct dia hoses/fitting. Maybe mil-surplus, but I'd be surprised.

Marcus...
Marcus, Those are great ideas! I sent you a PM.

Yes, this is to replace the blower and intercooler.


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Uh Buddy how about a slave engine to run the blower in the trunk you can set it up to use the same fuel................
Carl, it would work in some venues, but it's not allowed at Bonneville.

What I propose may not be lagal either!

I sent an email off, to the 'powers that be', to see if it will be allowed. Here is what I sent.

I have looked up the definition of supercharged in the rulebook, and it specifies "an artificially aspirated engine with a mechanically driven supercharger".

On my future project, I wish to 'supercharge', or add 14 PSI boost, with previously compressed air. I wish to run in a modified ALT or Comp Coupe class.

I find nothing in the rule book allowing it, nor prohibiting it, save the wording in 4.FF.

Is there a category/class that I could run this in, or would the car be deemed time only, after passing tech?

Would this be a 'gas' class, or 'fuel',because of the difficulty of certifying the compressed air?


I'm not real hopeful, but we'll see!
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:37 PM   #83
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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More out of the box thinking

I beleve Peterbuilt and Cummings used turbo and roots type blowers together on there 2 stroke desiel engines.

Now turbos use relative free or waste energy but create alot of boost add this boost into your carbs with a roots style supercharger under them creating a push and pull system, the combination of the 2 might offset the power loss of the roots blower.

like I said way outside the box

MrC.
The two stroke Detroits used blowers for forcing exhaust out of the cylinders. Some later Detroits were turbocharged. Cummins engines were four stroke and some models had superchargers. Later all had turbochargers. I don't believe any early Cummins engines had both.
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:01 PM   #84
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Two stroke Detroits cannot run without the supercharger because they don't use crankcase air movement ,like a chainsaw or two stroke motorcycle engine, to feed the intake. Detroits use the supercharger for air supply and to scavenge the exhaust while refilling the cylinder with fresh air thru the intake ports in the cylinder while the piston is low in the cylinder.
Any engine can use a turbocharger as long as the fuel requirements match air induction volume. It's the same with a supercharger or nitrous.
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:04 PM   #85
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Hey, Buddy;

If they balk, ask if the pre-compressed air would be legal as an assist.

You could always run a mini blower to the engine for the pre-C/A, de-clutch it - like an a/c comp, or divert the minis' charge, or just let it spin in its' own air, or slow it down so much it's only a technicality... .

This would be skirting the rules, at best. But what are rules made for, if not to have the most interesting interpretation possible applied... . Smokey Yunick would be proud. 'Course, he'd just do it, hide it, & worry about the situation later... .

This should be amusing...

The best of luck in this.

Marcus...
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:15 PM   #86
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Hey Buddy, How about direct injecting the compressed air into combustion chamber after the exhaust and intake valves close during the compression cycle.This might a way to use a lot less air from the scuba tanks. The injectors from a diesel are what I had in mind . Just a wild idea with no where else to go. Steve
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:46 PM   #87
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Can't you use liquid oxygen? I believe the density ration of gas to liquid is around 1:100 which means 100x the oxygen in a container vs a gaseous state. For 3 miles you should not need to cool the oxygen to keep it in liquid form if you use cryogenic containers. If you come up with a way to feed liquid oxygen into multiple air tanks in timed, measured spurts to fill the tanks to capacity, which would be 100x less than amount of air(100% capacity in gaseous form) then use the heat from the exhaust to heat the liquid oxygen in the multiple tanks to it's gaseous state then feed those into the intake using one way valves in a timed release thus creating a continuous flow of compressed air.
There are well documented problems with using pure oxygen and fuel to run an engine.

But, what if you ran a cylinder of liquid oxygen and a cylinder of liquid nitrogen and mixed the two gases at the engine? It wouldn't technically be "air" but it would be very close.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:18 AM   #88
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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That is thinking outside of the box! I've seen banger engine converted to air compressors, but never a cylinder converted into a huffer!








think what you could do with something like a olds 403 with it's HUGE cylinders..
or with a flatty lincoln V12 ... you could turn 4 of the cylinders into a front
integeral supercharger . hahhah.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:11 PM   #89
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

All of the suggestions to use pure oxygen are forgetting one thing - the nitorgen is needed to give some cushion and thermal cooling to keep the pistons alive. A buffering effect that is needed. The pistons in a nitro drag engine are barely at the ability to hold up. Now take 38Flattie's situation with Bonneville and needing to run for several miles. He must have the enngine be able to live, and for a back-up run if he qualifies for a record.

People do run nitro at Bonneville, but at much lower percentage than drag racing. For the exact reasons listed above to enable the engine to not overheat and damage the parts.

The idea to use liquid oxygen and notrogen tanks and then mix them may have some possibility. It would require some very reliable controls and I am not sure would be legal for Bonneville.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:27 PM   #90
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Have you looked at exhaust expansion chambers? Similar to those used on two strokes. When sized correctly and placed in the desired location they have the same function as a supper charger; only drawing in extra air instead of pushing it. Most likely would require special cam timing to take advantage of that phenomenon.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:43 PM   #91
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I did some math and thinking on this while in the waiting room.
I used a 350 cubic inch @ 10,000 Rpms & 1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot ( cfm) & 2 revs per full 350 ci displacement & one minutes time. 14psi or twice atmosphere.

(350*10,000)/2 = 1.75 million cubic inches per min. NA
1,750,000/ 1728 = 1012 CFM NA
1012 *2 = 2024 cfm @ 14 psi boost.

This unit : only $400.00 each & no moving parts. Some of these are adjustable to fine tune the output.

http://www.vortexproducts.biz/Convey...vectors_2.html

Has a 3" throat, consumes 71 cfm @ 100 psi and delivers 1420 cfm.
A pair of those units would consume 142 CFM ( size of 4' tall x 7" gas bottle at 2200 psi) and deliver 2840 CFM or just over you CFM requirement at 14psi boost. just multiply that by how many minutes you'll be at WOT for 3 miles. Them scuba tanks hold more cubic feet so that may work much better.

your running a flathead so this won't be the same type manifold but You could set a pair up on a manifold like this with fuel Injectors and have at it.

Thought experiment because I don't know if those will build boost pressure.

.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:21 PM   #92
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Exhaust expansion chambers (at theoretic maximum) would only allow cyclinder pressure to be whatever the atmospheric pressure is. In other words: No compressed air. Right?

Venturis work by Un compressing air. Right?
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:28 PM   #93
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I don't know if anyone had mentioned it but somebody ran a tank of pure oxygen on a 27 roadster in the late 40's early 50's on the lakes. there was a picture of the engine after it backfired during the run and literally turned into a torch on top of the engine. scary stuff man!
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:02 PM   #94
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

My dad bought two railroad "self-portable" air compressor tractors when I was a kid. They had a 4 cyl. power unit with a separate headed 2 cyl. air compressor. Same crankshaft. Same cooling system. Two cyl heads with different jobs. The compressor part of the engine had much larger pistons.
So do you build an 8 that has compression from 2, and make a crank that can deal with both, valve the air compessor two cylinders to deliver on every stroke?
Has that been done? I also don't think that all cylinders being of equal displacement can have enough enhancement from 2 of the 8 to make a difference because I think the parasitic drag would be similar to a belt driven supercharger at the expense of having fun to learn while doing it and all the rest of the money involved.
Just thoughts.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:03 PM   #95
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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There are well documented problems with using pure oxygen and fuel to run an engine.

But, what if you ran a cylinder of liquid oxygen and a cylinder of liquid nitrogen and mixed the two gases at the engine? It wouldn't technically be "air" but it would be very close.
I was about to say the same thing. The timing would definitely be hard to get the timing down but it could be done and like toddc said you would definitely have a good argument of why you should be able to run in the gas class. I would love to witness the conversation of someone trying to disprove the mixture as air. This thread is making me want to get back to work on my water-powered car.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:04 AM   #96
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Hey, 31V;

I don't know of any vortex generators, air curtains, air amp. or venturi air horn, or similar, that will develop pressure. AFAIK, it's all about volume at atmospheric, or less. If I'm not mistaken, the larger the delta (difference 'twixt in & out), the better it'll work. As I'm defining it here: the more air (in cfm, or lbs, or however you want to measure it) it will flow {output}, for a given amount of air used {input}(at a correct working pressure).

Which is why this device will have to be used at the inlet of a carb(s), injector(s), supercharger(s). I think the only advantage would be, the ability to gulp abnormal amounts of air. There should be some cooling effect, but take into consideration the ratio of compressed air to atmos. Still, getting lots extra air, + any cooling, compared to normal, esp at Bville, would allow the supercharger to build boost - lots of it - very early. & probably more than it would otherwise.

If you know different, please educate me. Seriously.

Another possible use for this, that I just considered - & it's late, so no promise of clear thinking - would be to utilize this, or these, facing rearward, to break-up the turbulence behind the car. Not sure if you could carry enough to really be effective, but using it in a "spot" situation(s) might work to (partially) defeat troublesome low pressure area(s) that are hard to eliminate otherwise.

Jim Hall had the best idea, but probably outlawed 'bout near everywhere.
Oldsmobile w/their 'liner & the Arriva bros - same deal.

Marcus...
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:07 AM   #97
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Exhaust expansion chambers (at theoretic maximum) would only allow cyclinder pressure to be whatever the atmospheric pressure is. In other words: No compressed air. Right?

Venturis work by Un compressing air. Right?
I'm thinking out loud here, in thought experiments. For these couple things there would be no compressed air utilized although it could be in unison. But an exhaust expansion chamber does provide a low pressure condition, that should or could evacuate the cylinders better and earlier. To take advantage of that phenomenon the cam's valve timing would have to be changed.

A venturi does a lot of things. Depends on how you look at it to get it to do what you want. increases flow velocity and reduces pressure at the choke is a by product. (conservation of energy & conservation of mass) That reduction in pressure creates a vacuume at the choke. One could theoretically used that to increase exhaust flow rate and use that vacuume to better evacuate the cylinders and draw in more of a fresh charge earlier.

But the cam's Valve timing will need to take advantage of that. I doubt the gains would be huge because a lot of that "science" is already being used, just not on an optimal level.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:29 AM   #98
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by nrgwizard View Post
Hey, 31V;

I don't know of any vortex generators, air curtains, air amp. or venturi air horn, or similar, that will develop pressure. AFAIK, it's all about volume at atmospheric, or less. If I'm not mistaken, the larger the delta (difference 'twixt in & out), the better it'll work. As I'm defining it here: the more air (in cfm, or lbs, or however you want to measure it) it will flow {output}, for a given amount of air used {input}(at a correct working pressure).

Which is why this device will have to be used at the inlet of a carb(s), injector(s), supercharger(s). I think the only advantage would be, the ability to gulp abnormal amounts of air. There should be some cooling effect, but take into consideration the ratio of compressed air to atmos. Still, getting lots extra air, + any cooling, compared to normal, esp at Bville, would allow the supercharger to build boost - lots of it - very early. & probably more than it would otherwise.

If you know different, please educate me. Seriously.

Another possible use for this, that I just considered - & it's late, so no promise of clear thinking - would be to utilize this, or these, facing rearward, to break-up the turbulence behind the car. Not sure if you could carry enough to really be effective, but using it in a "spot" situation(s) might work to (partially) defeat troublesome low pressure area(s) that are hard to eliminate otherwise.

Jim Hall had the best idea, but probably outlawed 'bout near everywhere.
Oldsmobile w/their 'liner & the Arriva bros - same deal.

Marcus...
My first hand experience with this is with the Venturi air horns or air movers. Works on the same scientific principals as the air amplifiers know as "the coanda effect" or a variation of it. That's only been in free air with large units. In some situations there's debris in those environments, if that debris gets in the sucking end it comes out the other like it was shot out of a cannon. If the debris is large enough to block the opening the suction is still there but weak. As soon as you try to move the obstruction and get some free air in the suction rapidly increases to a point of no hope getting it loose.

I've never tried to develop pressure on the other or exiting end of a venturi air mover.

Those air amplifiers linked above are only a few hundred bucks for the larger 3" and less for the smaller ones. Wouldn't take much to test one on the pressure side.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:42 AM   #99
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

OK, now if you want to combine the leaf blowers with a large bottle off oxygen...
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Old 02-07-2012, 10:24 AM   #100
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Actually I have a Venturi Air horn off a over water 747 life raft. It used high velocity gasses from a black powder explosion to draw in outside air and inflate the raft. If you get out here you can look at it and see what you think. If nothing else it looks cool. Sure to cause much hate and discontent.
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Old 02-07-2012, 10:47 AM   #101
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Fuzzy pictures of 747 part
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Old 02-07-2012, 10:53 AM   #102
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Blackpowder!!!!!!!! Now you're talking Rich! Should we try FF or FFF?
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Old 02-07-2012, 11:24 AM   #103
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

OK, here's your answer. Go to your local WW2 Submarine junkyard and get 3 or 4 of the air tanks used to blow the ballast tanks on a sub. Heavy? Yes, but we all know weight is of no consequence for Bonneville. They're big and have a HUGE pressure rating. There. Fixed it for ya
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Old 02-07-2012, 11:33 AM   #104
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Blackpowder!!!!!!!! Now you're talking Rich! Should we try FF or FFF?
Actually, Black power was tried on the show Myth Busters. The problem was the valves woulden't close fast enough to prevent an explosion in the fuel supply.
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Old 02-07-2012, 02:44 PM   #105
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I had to look it up, Detroit did have a turbo and supercharger set up on there diesel engine. heres a link of it.

Its not exactly what you were looking for but it is different.
MrC.

Detroit Diesel 8VF turbo and supercharged HD 1080
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG3DV8CTesI





or you could get one of these instead
The Flux Capacitor!
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:53 PM   #106
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

There were a gazillion buses running around with turbo charged Detroit 8/92 and such engines in them. All the two strokes have the Blower, except on the Detroit/GMC diesel it's not a blower the same as on a top fuel car.It's just an air pump supplying intake air to the two stroke on it's combined intake/exhaust stroke. And we are not talking about black powder as a fuel. In the raft it was a gas generator for the nozzles in the venturi that sucked in ambient air to inflate the raft.
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:02 PM   #107
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

This is a fun thread.

If I am not mistaken, compressed air would also be very cold and thus very dense as well, no? Kind of like an automatic intercooler.

I believe that there was a French Company making a small car that ran off compressed air. They used Kevlar pressure tanks so that in the case of a puncture, they would not explode, just decompress rapidly.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/3523/
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:10 PM   #108
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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There were a gazillion buses running around with turbo charged Detroit 8/92 and such engines in them. All the two strokes have the Blower, except on the Detroit/GMC diesel it's not a blower the same as on a top fuel car.It's just an air pump supplying intake air to the two stroke on it's combined intake/exhaust stroke. And we are not talking about black powder as a fuel. In the raft it was a gas generator for the nozzles in the venturi that sucked in ambient air to inflate the raft.
So where do we put the ramrod?
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #109
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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I saw this French liner at Bonneville in 2010. It ran on compressed air. I don't remember for sure, but I think they went over 200.


They filled the tanks with a scuba tank compressor. I think pure Oxygen would be the bomb, but there are safty issues in the case of a wreck and fire control you would have to look into.
It ran 64 or 65 mph. The push truck almost passed it.
The tanks were about 16+ inches in diameter and about 36+ inches long.
More pictures
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:06 PM   #110
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I have zero experience with the bleeding of compressed air into the engine, but I believe the variable temperature drop associated with the depressurizing of the tanks would be much more of a problem than carrying enough tanks.

Not saying it cannot be done, but I certainly would not wish to be the individual responsible for tuning the fuel system.

Good luck with your project. Post some pictures if you get that far.

Jon.
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:37 PM   #111
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

You would really blow some minds if you could make the engine a 2 stroke and run a preasurize the crankcase.
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:44 PM   #112
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

A screw charger consumes 1/2 the HP as a roots type but has to really be overdriven.
or how about the ultimate Roots style fast fowardto 2.20 http://youtu.be/v0qeYd5gcnQ
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Old 02-07-2012, 11:59 PM   #113
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I am no expert at this and my answer may end up being off topic but here are my thoughts. On a supercharged engine all of the area down stream of the supercharger is sealed, to run on compressed air my thoughts are that the regulator to the cylinders must be sealed to take advantage of the pressure from the tank. I think the expansion of the gas as the pressure is reduced will reduce the total amount of gas needed to make this operation viable. The problem will be with the regulators supplying enough gas to keep up with the demad from the engine. If welding gas is used it is nearly 100% oxygen. I think the easiet way to control fuel mixture would be to go with fuel injection using an oxygen sensor.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:35 AM   #114
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

stick a couple of politicians in the trunk, hook some hoses to their mouths, should produce all the hot air you need. I think..
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Old 02-08-2012, 10:07 AM   #115
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

You might want to research WWII era airplanes where all these questions and experiments have been done with never ending tax payer budgets. They had to deal with high altitude thin air and high horsepower requirements. They too were looking for short bursts of high power to avoid Jap Zeros.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:14 AM   #116
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

What if you..
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Old 02-08-2012, 12:15 PM   #117
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Back in the early days of drag racing this was tried. Guys with rails running with long bottles in front of the engine. It worked right up to the point of a crash with potential bombs on the front of the car. As I recall reading they were in fact banned after a couple of stupid crashes and the resulting problems occuring. It is all fun and games till someone pokes an eye out.

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Old 02-08-2012, 01:48 PM   #118
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Hello Buddy

Could this be an idea?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1U8aip1_XU
http://www.youtube.com/user/genbeau#p/a/u/1/MSJxtbPDQ1Y


Br Kjell

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Old 02-08-2012, 02:18 PM   #119
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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This translates into 17463.77 cubic gallons of air,per minute!

Seriously??!!!

Surely I made a huge math error here? How did Art Malone manage to get his drag car down the track?

So if compressed what size ould that fit into?
And if your going to go that route why not go with pure 02 it supports combustion much beter than air which is like 20%?.. And for space limitations liquid 02 is much more compressed, cant find the math to convert everything but sounds feasable, difficult and expensive, but possible...
How long does a typical run last? Only wot time not warm up since you would have this system off for that time period...
MY 14 month old is running with a pot and spoon... Gotta go...

And remember those drag cars only ran for 7 seconds or less...
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:30 PM   #120
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

17463.77 cubic gallons divided by 7.48051948 and you have 2334.5663134 cubic feet...
Back to pot kid...
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:50 PM   #121
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Ok so Buddy let me see if I got this right, you have 325 CI at lets say 7000 RPM requires 658CFM at 100% VE or 546 at 83% VE you want to go 200 MPH which will cover 3.33 miles in a minute so if you use the last two miles with boost you will need somewhere between 546 to 658 CF of air at 14 psi, humm with EFI and maybe some type of flapper valve to shut out atmospheric pressure, and then pressurize the manifold once up to speed......HUMMMMMM
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:33 PM   #122
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

I think we've determined that we can carry enough air to make a run. 90 seconds of boost will be enough.

I agree that a flapper valve, of some design, will work to switch between atmospheric, and compressed air. I've received a lot of PM's, and emails on this- thank you. I need to reed and study the suggestions, then figure out how to make this work.

I'm thinking a flapper valve to isolate the boost, EFI, boost sender, MAP sensor, and some electronically operated flow valves. The valves could be operated by the EFI operating system.

Carl, this would be cool on your FED!

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Old 02-10-2012, 08:48 PM   #123
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

so would the 4-71 I already have................
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:51 PM   #124
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Yes, I can't wait to see it with the 4-71!
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:55 PM   #125
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

one step at a time......
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:35 PM   #126
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Can't you use liquid oxygen? I believe the density ration of gas to liquid is around 1:100 which means 100x the oxygen in a container vs a gaseous state. For 3 miles you should not need to cool the oxygen to keep it in liquid form if you use cryogenic containers. If you come up with a way to feed liquid oxygen into multiple air tanks in timed, measured spurts to fill the tanks to capacity, which would be 100x less than amount of air(100% capacity in gaseous form) then use the heat from the exhaust to heat the liquid oxygen in the multiple tanks to it's gaseous state then feed those into the intake using one way valves in a timed release thus creating a continuous flow of compressed air.
Now we're talkin'. Want to take this to the nth degree? If you want a rocket, build a rocket.

Sorta.

So what is the purpose of the blower? To pack more molecules of oxygen in a cylinder. Inject the correct ratio of fuel to oxidize with every molecule of oxygen to make power. More oxygen, more fuel, more power.

Let's just jump to the chase. How compressed can you make oxygen? A liquid. We now have direct injectors. So, one direct injector per cylinder for the fuel, say liquid hydrogen. One other direct injector per cylinder for liquid oxygen. Don't need no blower. Don't need no intake. Don't even need any intake valve. It's entirely fed through those two injectors.

While the hurdles would be monumental, I think we live in an era where it would almost be possible to achieve. Hell most of the technology needed for this was pioneered over 50 years ago for the the trip it to the moon.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:30 AM   #127
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Now we're talkin'. Want to take this to the nth degree? If you want a rocket, build a rocket.

Sorta.

So what is the purpose of the blower? To pack more molecules of oxygen in a cylinder. Inject the correct ratio of fuel to oxidize with every molecule of oxygen to make power. More oxygen, more fuel, more power.

Let's just jump to the chase. How compressed can you make oxygen? A liquid. We now have direct injectors. So, one direct injector per cylinder for the fuel, say liquid hydrogen. One other direct injector per cylinder for liquid oxygen. Don't need no blower. Don't need no intake. Don't even need any intake valve. It's entirely fed through those two injectors.

While the hurdles would be monumental, I think we live in an era where it would almost be possible to achieve. Hell most of the technology needed for this was pioneered over 50 years ago for the the trip it to the moon.

Russian Roulette for hotrodders, anyone?
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:43 AM   #128
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

The problem I see with only using boost for part of the run would be tuning for two widely different air pressures. You would have to use electronic fuel injection with wide range injectors that can supply enough fuel under boost but still be able to cut back enough to run without boost. With a blower, the carburetor is on top and the compression takes place after the fuel and air mixes going through the carburetor. A supercharger with a carburetor requires the carburetor to be inside the pressurized envelope. Carburetors don't handle varying air pressures very well. Racers tune for the conditions at the time of the event.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:16 PM   #129
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I believe it would have to run in a fuel class have to be EFI. Running fuel, it could run 'fat' on atmospheric air.

Megasquirt makes an EFI controller, for boost- why not simply utilize it, with dual mapping? Hell, maybe even dual injectors, if necessary.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:49 PM   #130
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The real question is how to get more A/F into the cylinder using no horsepower from the engine, keeping the weight down, and being moderately safe. Compressed air is going to be kind of heavy and really dangerous. An electric powered supercharger is going to need heavy batteries, unless they get that cold fusion thing working and then who's going to be wasting their time with internal combustion. You could run the supercharger with a separate gas engine. But what about a solid-fuel rocket motor? You could run a turbine with it, pressurize your plenum, bleed off any excess boost, and set it up to "run" for the length of time you race -- several seconds for the strip, a couple of minutes for Bonneville.
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:06 PM   #131
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ok.. since we are already miles out of the box.. how's about .. this.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...le-conversion/
This made for an interesting read, would be neat to see if it could be up sized to a v8.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:23 AM   #132
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Very interesting thread. But something sticks in my mind, there was a comment earlier about using pure oxygen. Depending on the volume of the intake manifold and cylinders, and having available gasoline, you are talking about a seriously strong grenade in case of a tiny backfire. my guess is that you might have something left from the windshield forward, but not much.

But in the spirit of things, using hydrogen peroxide and a catalyst, you could make a rocket motor fairly safely from a piston engine. doubtless the engineering would be fantastic, but at least it is a safe compound till turned into hydrogen and oxygen.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:39 AM   #133
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Well Buddy I quess you could always do this....If you look real hard you can see the 6-71 in there......
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:12 PM   #134
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by roseville carl View Post
Well Buddy I quess you could always do this....If you look real hard you can see the 6-71 in there......
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:07 PM   #135
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Now I could be wrong about this, I'm old, and my memory sometimes plays tricks on me, but weren't Mickeys experiments with this brought to a close by a rather spectacular starting line explosion?
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:04 AM   #136
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

now.. since we are being a bit.. odd here.. i may as well roll this one out.

what would it take to convert a normal.. say.. 351c into a two stroke?
could it be done?
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:45 AM   #137
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

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Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 View Post
All of the suggestions to use pure oxygen are forgetting one thing - the nitorgen is needed to give some cushion and thermal cooling to keep the pistons alive. A buffering effect that is needed. The pistons in a nitro drag engine are barely at the ability to hold up. Now take 38Flattie's situation with Bonneville and needing to run for several miles. He must have the enngine be able to live, and for a back-up run if he qualifies for a record.

People do run nitro at Bonneville, but at much lower percentage than drag racing. For the exact reasons listed above to enable the engine to not overheat and damage the parts.

The idea to use liquid oxygen and notrogen tanks and then mix them may have some possibility. It would require some very reliable controls and I am not sure would be legal for Bonneville.
Isn't this just describing Nitrous Oxide?
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:02 AM   #138
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzus View Post
"Now we're talkin'.
Want to take this to the nth degree? If you
want a rocket, build a rocket....."

"....Let's just jump to the chase. How
compressed can you make oxygen? A liquid.
We now have direct injectors. So, one direct
injector per cylinder for the fuel, say liquid
hydrogen. One other direct injector per
cylinder for liquid oxygen. Don't need no
blower. Don't need no intake. Don't even
need any intake valve. It's entirely fed
through those two injectors. While the
hurdles would be monumental, I think we
live in an era where it would almost be
possible to achieve. Hell most of the
technology needed for this was
pioneered over 50 years ago for the
trip it to the moon
.
"
Quote:
Originally Posted by 38FLATTIE View Post
Russian Roulette for hotrodders, anyone?
-------------
Yep....and when - not if- something goes
even infinitesimally wrong, that's exactly
where you'll be headed to, too....to the
moon!!!

Mart3406 ("who firmly believes
that 'rocket science' really is 'rocket
science'!!!
""
============
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:28 AM   #139
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Default Re: Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Hi.. Use a 30" long pulse jet engine exaust into the inlake manifold... plenty of pressure ..no HP to drive it.....very cheap to build.....run on kero.....LOL.....
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