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Old 12-08-2011, 05:23 PM   #1
Modeljunkie
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Default Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I'm really wanting to build up either my 40 plymouth 201 flathead six or a newer/larger version but have heard alot of bad press on them in the way of "no high RPMS", intenal oiling issues, and not worth the money spent - by some folks.
I like the motor because it's different from the sual SBC and SBF around here, but I want to have all the facts before I fully decide to do the build.
1) just how high should one rev a flathead 6 and live to tell about it...what's the agreeable limit? I'm planning on an automatic 4 speed behind it....3000...4000?
2) I hear the crank is the week part, and since forged cranks are not available, what can be done to improve the life of a crank sans limited revs.
3) Multi carbs and twin exhaust manifolds help her breathe, but aside from internal mods and a head shave, what's the actual HP gains from any of the above mods - I'd like to add on an AC compressor and worry about the power loss from that...stock hp for my 201 is only 87HP...I'd like to see around 150HP to 175HP when done and still have the motor as a daily driver on pump gas{87 octane}.
4) I hear the flathead 6 motor production ran for quite a while into the mid 50s, with the exception of a larger displacement block, are there better choices for a starting point...a good application{industrial?} or year?

Sorry for the ton of questions here, I just want to get the facts straight.
Thanks for lookin- Happy Holidays, Bob
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

can't help other bumping to the top and to say my dodge flat6 is the long head version out of canada . it is very reliable and cheap to maintain and fix , it has tons of torque but sounded labored at high RPM untill i swapped out the rear for some hwy. friendly gears.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

150 to 175 is asking alot for these little motors. Start off with a chrysler or desoto to get away from the crank issue. I built a pretty gnarly motor from a 218. Dont rev above about 4k unless you inprove the bottom end oiling. 3800 was factory redline.

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Old 12-08-2011, 05:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I'm no expert but would think those HP numbers are a bit high for the smaller flathead that you have. The big block flatheads would be a better option for numbers like that. I have a slightly hopped up 218 in my 47 Plymouth and can say the best thing I did was get an overdrive trans from an early mopar. Really keeps the RPM down when cruising down the interstate.

You should check out the P15/D24 site. They are all about the old flatheads.... and I mean ALL about them. Good guys too.
http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/index.php
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Old 12-08-2011, 06:02 PM   #5
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

They made the 230 version of your motor until 61. Newer is usually better. You might find one with a Powerflit 2 speed automatic. I always heard, in the day, That the bad thing about Plymouth/Dodge six cylinder engines is that the oil line from the main gallery is drilled straight through. So as much oil goes to the cam bearings as the mains and rods. The fix is to tap the feed to the cam and install a restriction. Maybe with a 1/16 hole. Then the crank gets what it needs.
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:14 PM   #6
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I will suggest swapping a larger 25" Chrysler or DeSoto. You will need the extra torque to drive the ac pump and depending on which 'auto' trans you plan to use you may have additional hp losses there.

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Old 12-08-2011, 07:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

There are several threads regarding these engines, rule of thumb, if you build a 201 you will end up pretty close to a stock 218, if you build a 218, you will end up pretty clost to a stock 230, if you build a 230, you will have something. I have a built 230 that I have driven on several long distance trips, it has been reliable, and fairly economical. So if you are going to spend the money to build an engine start with a 230. The chrysler and Desoto versions are 2 inches longer so they are not a direct bolt in, at the minimum you need to move the radiator forward, you may need to notch the front crossmember to clear the crank pully. And yes they do not like high rpms, you are talking nearly 5 inches of stroke for the larger engines. Which in and f itself makes higher RPMS an excersize in piston friction.

Do a search for material here and look at the p15 D 25 forum. For all stuff mopar flat six.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Strange that this subject came up and you described the real problem and the fix. Just yesterday I was in a shop where an old timer is working on a '49 or '50 Dodge. He said the very same thing you just did. At 74 and having hung around auto shops for 62 of that, I'd never heard this until yesterday and now again today.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RichFox View Post
They made the 230 version of your motor until 61. Newer is usually better. You might find one with a Powerflit 2 speed automatic. I always heard, in the day, That the bad thing about Plymouth/Dodge six cylinder engines is that the oil line from the main gallery is drilled straight through. So as much oil goes to the cam bearings as the mains and rods. The fix is to tap the feed to the cam and install a restriction. Maybe with a 1/16 hole. Then the crank gets what it needs.
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I figured a larger cubed block would be a better choice...finding one might be a challenge though.

As far as the max revs are concerned, I didn't know it was as low as only 3800 rpm....dang good thing to know!

The trans in question, at the moment, would either be a GM 700r or the 200r4 since I can only find one adapter for the back of the block for either of those two in 4 speed auto transmissions...my wife has requested that if I change transmissions that I make it an auto so she could drive it too. I'd kind of prefer to keep it all mopar, but I haven't seen any mopar 4 speed auto trany adaptors for the flathead 6.

If using, say, a 230 cube block, what's the modded HP that I could really expect?...120...130? What would it take to get to that point after a good block was found- $2000-$3000 in mods?
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

230 were 125 to 135 stock. and 3800 is a number from Where??? Factory peak HP was at 3600, to suggest that the rev limit is only 200 higher is somewhat dubious.

The factory used to take engine of the line and strap them into test stands, and then run them at 3600 for 50 hours, against a load. So they are not as frail as some would have you believe. But are you going to make a full race engine for the street, not likely, so you up the compression by milling the head and maybe decking the block, you open up the intake, with etiher a 2bbl set up (available from the factory in 1956) or 2 singles (www.rustyhope.com) or check member moose profile for a link to his site for other intake and exhaust options. Going much past 4000k is pretty futile but you don't build them that way.

My engine is a 56 230, 30 over, 060 milled, dual carbs and single exhaust. at 3200 rpm on a chasis dyno its running 62 mph, and putting 127 HP to the rear wheels. The factory rated the engine at 125 at the flywheel, so adding 25% for drivetrain loss, that makes it about 140 to 150 at the flywheel. It pulls the car around pretty smartly, climbs hills with little or no effort and gives me 19 to 20 mph this withthe stock 3 speed and the stock 4.11 rear end.

I do believe that are a couple of folks that make an adapter for a torque flite, and if you look real hard you maybe could find a 55, 56, 57 doner car or truck with the powerflite, which was the engine that preceeded the torque flite.

Egge has rebuild parts, and Terrel Maching in Terrel texas also carries rebuild parts and so does Vintage Power Wagons.


some ideas here

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=429644
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Old 12-09-2011, 06:29 AM   #11
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I have a 39 Chrysler Royal coupe w/ a 1954 Chrysler 265 flathead w/ a 39 overdrive transmission, dual small webbers, electronic ignition & a/c. The rear is a modern ford 3.8 ratio.

I bought the car cause it didn't have a modern v8. I couldn't be happier w/ the performance. Tons of torque...great gearing 2300 rpm at 70mph and I get 23 mpg at that speed.

It would be perfect with a 700r or the like. My a/c condensor is a remote mounting unit (I think for 18 wheelers) that is mounted under the driver's floor & blows straight down. Never any overheating....in any weather...moving or not.

My car was built by a man in Turlock, CA that restores & sells machinery for the agriculture industry. All his equipment is old style & powered by flathead Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth engines. He's an expert on these flatheads

I've driven it 15,000 in 3 years & it runs great.

Now I'm not singing but it runs Mobil 1 and after 3,000 miles (oil change time) it still hasn't used any oil (knock on wood)....guess I'm lucky...I'm not singing etc....etc...

The builder originally had a 3.5 rear but thought that it was too high. The 3.8 is perfect. The overdrive drops it about .3.

I don't know about mounting it in your car....earlier posts said it is slightly longer & mounts might need tweeking.

There's an old timer (in his 70s) near Oil City PA that builds & sells these engines hopped up. I've ridden in his 29 DeSoto Coupe (that he's had for over 50 years) & he runs the RPMs way up...a brass knuckles ride. I can get his name if you are interested.
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:36 AM   #12
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Quote:
Originally Posted by Modeljunkie View Post
The trans in question, at the moment, would either be a GM 700r or the 200r4 since I can only find one adapter for the back of the block for either of those two in 4 speed auto transmissions...my wife has requested that if I change transmissions that I make it an auto so she could drive it too. I'd kind of prefer to keep it all mopar, but I haven't seen any mopar 4 speed auto trany adaptors for the flathead 6.

...seems that this was covered in another thread of yours...

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Old 12-09-2011, 12:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Fairfax View Post
Strange that this subject came up and you described the real problem and the fix. Just yesterday I was in a shop where an old timer is working on a '49 or '50 Dodge. He said the very same thing you just did. At 74 and having hung around auto shops for 62 of that, I'd never heard this until yesterday and now again today.
O)ne good thing about the HAMB is passing on experiance to the younger Hot Rodders. I don't mean you at 74. But the younger guys that won't get much about 218s at the local speed shop. I hope you have seen the many pictures of my '32 Plymouth engines. Both OHV with a '57 Ford head.And the flathead that went 113.75 in my roadster. I hope somewhere somebody will see them and get an idea. Like I did when Dave Dozier told me about his.
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Old 12-09-2011, 12:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

No matter which moter you choose to build,i think its great your keeping it mopar...
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Old 12-09-2011, 02:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I worked on them back in the day. They were not a bad engine, but did not have much torque . The problems I seen was with the lower end. The rod bearings went out before most cars of the time. I would go with the Chysler 6 they also used that engine in trucks, marine, and industrial. Much stronger engine that looks a lot like the Plymouth, or Dodge.
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Old 12-09-2011, 05:00 PM   #16
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Quote:
Originally Posted by 73RR View Post
...seems that this was covered in another thread of yours...

.
Hey, do you have any plans for a 588{?} mopar 4 speed auto behind a flathead 6 adaptor....904s and 727s are fine, ran my share in late 60s and early 70s cars, but I'd like a 4 speed auto...mopar.
edit/ I just looked up "A-500 trans"...well, what do ya know! -cool, now to find a trans!

Last edited by Modeljunkie; 12-09-2011 at 05:48 PM. Reason: opened mouth before I opend a new window to search
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Old 12-09-2011, 05:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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O)ne good thing about the HAMB is passing on experiance to the younger Hot Rodders. . .
...that'd be me coming in at 46, soon to be 47.
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Old 12-09-2011, 05:15 PM   #18
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Originally Posted by Mopar Jack View Post
No matter which moter you choose to build,i think its great your keeping it mopar...
Yes sir!, while I have owned other makes, the majority of my old owned car were mopars...heck, I'm driving a 99 gran voy daily so running a fallen flag car is noooo problem for me!
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Old 12-09-2011, 05:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Originally Posted by thekid1950 View Post
I have a 39 Chrysler Royal coupe w/ a 1954 Chrysler 265 flathead w/ a 39 overdrive transmission, dual small webbers, electronic ignition & a/c. The rear is a modern ford 3.8 ratio.

I bought the car cause it didn't have a modern v8. I couldn't be happier w/ the performance. . .
That's what I'm shooting for!...a good lookin old flathead engine, good power, and good reliability - within her limits{all engines have some sort of limit, right?!}...the trifecta! I'm not going to bracket race the car...a 40 plymouth touring sedan...don't think so! I'm not going to race it against any BBmotor car, or SB motors...nope...just a good reliable cruiser with style and good looks.
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Old 12-09-2011, 05:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Here's what I was shooting for since my 201 couldn't be much more than a 220 pending over bore{218 base crank/rods}.
The 265 cube block, is that one of the 25" motors? I can move the radiator farther forward but I'd have to use a remote filler and a different radiator since the oem rad filler cap would be covered up by the overhead core support when moved forward enough{2"}...a more modern rad {griffon?} wouldn't hurt anyway. I can pocket the firewall too if need be.
Is there a place where I can find a good rebuilt or rebuildable 265 block...no replacement for displacement- right?!...it would gain me 45 more cubes than where I'm at now with a little shoe horning and tweeking.
I've seen a lot of the flahead 6s here and on you tube, but around here where I live they're non existant...that just cries to me, "Do it!".
Anyone have any lincs to online sources for motors
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

check massey furgeson combines if yo live in an agricutlural area, if you have a regional airport check and see if they have any clark equipment that they might be surplusing, especially if there are charter operations at the airport.

Chyrlers, dodges and desoto had longer wheelbases than plymouth, that difference was between the cowl and the centerline of the front wheels. Which do you think accepts the longer engine with the least hassle???

If I were you i would be looking for a late model or industrial 230, with an .060 overbore you are looking at about 250 cubes. I have to disagree with the fellow who suggested they are low on torque, it is their forte. I can slow down to about 10 miles per hour make a hard turn and then pull a substantial hill easily in third gear.

video evidence to support claim

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhy...m-torquey_auto
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

My dad's old portable welder had a mopar flat 6 in it. In the Army I put many miles on the old M-37 dodge powerwagons with the bigger 6....always ran 'em up to the governed RPMs and left the foot on the floor.
Got home from the service to get a job where my service truck was...yep, an old surplus M-37 Dodge. It'd go 60-62 MPH all day long with no complaints and with the low gearing I pulled many a fully loaded 1 ton ford outta the ditches...only restriction was traction and the things had 4 wheel drive. I have respect for these engines.
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Old 12-09-2011, 11:11 PM   #23
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Originally Posted by plym_46 View Post
1)check massey furgeson combines if yo live in an agricutlural area
2)...with the least hassle???
3)If I were you i would be looking for a late model or industrial 230, with an .060 overbore you are looking at about 250 cubes.
1- Wife's uncle ralph owns a fordson/new holland dealership in mendota..I could have him look for that...
2-isn't there always some kind of hassle - but isn't it usually worth it all in the end?
3-I'll look for that one too...that 230 should be a 25" block, wonder how much longer the 265 is from that? 218 and 201 blocks were the 23" version as I recall.
Nice vids...Thanks!{keep off the grass-lol}
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Old 12-10-2011, 08:21 AM   #24
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

PLYM 46, when you get the time, can you measure the length of your block for me, just for a reference point for length?
I just measured my 201 and yup, it comes in just under 23"- 22 3/4" to be exact. This is simply measuring the head length.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:43 AM   #25
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

All Plymouth, Dodge, and Dodge trucks had 23 1/2 inch long blocks, as does mine. All Desoto, and Chrysler, and All Canadian built Cars and trucks used the 25 inch block. US 217.8 and 230 blocks from 1935 up are the same, the difference between the 217.8 and the 230 is the crank and rods. No plymouths used fulid drive and all early plymouths had a 4 bolt cranckshaft flange (till 53/4) All dodges with fluid drive regardless of transmission, used an 8 hole crank shaft flange (to accomodate the extra weight and length of the fluid drive unit) Plymouth 4 bolt flywheels will fit on the 8 bolt cranks but need to be alligned properly to the assymetrical hole pattern. Some later Plymouth 230 (mid year 54 and newer) used a 6 bolt flange. Some Dodge drive shaft flanges are thicker than Plymouth and some dodges. Dodge bellhousing are deeper than Plymouth to accomodate the fluid drive unit, Dodge transmissioin input shafts are longer than Plymouth when equiped with fluid drive. Most Dodges from 41 through 55 will have fluid drive, some Desoto and very few Chrylsers were not equiped fluid drive.

All mopar flat 6 setup use the bellhousing as the mounting and locating assembly. Bolting to a frame chrossmember in cars and to the frame rails on trucks and industrial applicatioins. that said the accomodation of the longer block will of necesity be forward of that mounting point. As noted sometimes it is as simple as moving the radiator to the front of the support, others will require modification of the front crossmember, and swaping of the oil pan and oil pump pickup.

Fluid drive is NOT THE TRANSMISSION.

Confused yet???
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:25 AM   #26
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Now that (Plym 46) is about as informative as a short reply can get!

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Old 12-10-2011, 11:37 AM   #27
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Well yea, without going into the 33 inch HD truck blocks........
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Old 12-10-2011, 03:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Well yea, without going into the 33 inch HD truck blocks........
Yeah, someday I'd like to find one of 'those' 331 or 413 jobs...

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Old 12-10-2011, 03:53 PM   #29
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

look for "K" series HD trucks. Wouldn't be suprised if there weren't some up in grain growing country.
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Old 12-10-2011, 05:08 PM   #30
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

If you are looking for the bigger 6 cylinder I have one. The engine is all new from top to bottom. The block has been bored .060 oversize with new pistons. The crankshaft was machined to .010 on the mains and .010 on the rods. New oil pump and screen. Both new timing gears and chain. Like new camshaft with new lifters. New valve guides and good valves. New valve cooling tube and water pump.

If interested call me at 1-816-721-7558 or E-mail me at OLEMWN442@aol.com

Marv Norton


Greater Kansas city, Missouri area
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Old 12-10-2011, 09:02 PM   #31
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Now you guys have me thinking about that 48 Chrysler Windsor I picked up a couple of years ago.
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Old 12-10-2011, 09:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I love the 251 in my Desoto, with a little bit of work done(milled head, split manifold, 2" pipes with Porters) to it I can cruise at 65-70mph easily. I still run the "clunk-a-matic" transmission in my car, thats robbing quite a bit of power.


Plym_46 has a real goer in his car, he was kind enough to let me drive it one day. Great car
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Old 12-11-2011, 07:55 AM   #33
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Originally Posted by plym_46 View Post
Fluid drive is NOT THE TRANSMISSION.

Confused yet???
Actually, right there did...unless your saying that the fluid drive was one of the means of torque transfer aside from the earlier simple clutch only units....they had a later hydromatic that was a semi auto trans- one had to clutch to go between reverse or drive {or vise versa} but that was it. That was just a 2 speed too...right?

As far as the motors go I think I got it...a 201 can be made into a 218 with the 218 crank and rods, and 218 can be made into a 230 with the 230 crank and rods...and all of those were the 23" block-
-Canuck cars, desoto and chrysler followed a longer motor path via the 25" blocks.
Crank bolt patterns were dependant on specific group years, makes and trans' as well.
Not having crawled under the car as of yet, I thought I heard these motor/trans combos had 5 point mounts- 2 front of the block, 2 mid at the trans case and 1 at the tail by the parking brake. If this is correct, can these motor/trans' be supported via the 2 front and tail only like modern engine/trans combos...and whether it's wise to do so as well if the bellhousing can take that kind of strain.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:20 AM   #34
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Ok, let's talk block mods now;
- can larger valve/valve seats be added to aid in breathability...and along those lines can intake and exhaust ports be ported or cleaned up better?
- can new cams be had or do we have to regrind the ones we have?
- Which is better to install- aluminum pistons or cast iron...or is there no real choice there pending block/year?
- aside from the "next motor size up crank/rod increase combos" out there, are there any other ways to offset grind the cranks and/or use other rods and pistons{different pin heights} to make more ponies or cubes..how much has anyone experimented with these..or is it not worth it?
Reason I ask is that my buddy was into the mid 60s 215 olds aluminum blocks and with the right crank with offset grind, different rods and pistons one could hit 300 cubes...sorry this is the wrong motor to bring up in this thread but it's the general premis that I'm after for our flathead 6 motors.
-lastly, for now, can anyone lead myself and any of the other readers here to a chart that would show a flathead 6s' stock or modded torque and HP ratings on a graph to see where the HP tapers off at...I can only imagine the torque line is a continuious path from idle on up. I hear redline is 3600 to 3800, so I'd like to try and find really where the end of the usability rope there is...anyone who's ever modded a motor knows that if a given motor's set up Hp rating drops considerably at, say, 5600 and torque drops off at 5800...you need to shift or stay at the span of those two or the motor is just making noise..yes, I know the 6 would grenade at those specs, it was just an out of thin air reference.

Thank you for all the input so far...I greatly appreciate it!!!
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:50 AM   #35
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I'm including a few pics of my application{car} for those ho may have a similar set up-
Here's a general view of the engine compartment- this is a 40 plymouth

Here's the block, a 201 and yes I have the oil bath air cleaner, it's just the PO had a loose fitting nut on it and I have to take the whole thing into ace harware today to get the correct fitting nut for the air cleaner.

Here's the front of the radiator bulkhead, there is some fudge room available for moving it forward and the PO gave me a spare panel {top nose piece} to possibly aid in the event if I ever did.

You later model guys have it easier with your one piece hoods, mine is two piece and easy lets rain in/on the top of the block which is a minor hassle for puddles around the plug holes....everything is a trade off I guess as I really like the twin hood halves.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:58 AM   #36
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

In case your wondering, the rope was useful to hold the driver's door open while I pulled the speedo the other day...tacky but effective.

Sparkplugs- what's the choices here- I got a set of champion RJ12YC since that's what was in there before...the parts counter guy tried to give me a set of RJ12C but the reach was wrong...same guy had to be told, "yes, 1940!" for the 3rd time since he obviously didn't believe me the 1st two times...ah young kids.

Gotta go look up a replacement oil filter now...a WIX unit...
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:33 AM   #37
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

These are really neat old motors....
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:22 AM   #38
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Most folks like AC 45's they start better than the Champs which should be J8 or J8C the 12 are a hotter plug with an extended tip which is not a good idea as the plug sits over a valve. Be carful withthe valve area, they are equiped with hardened seats (exhaust) from the factory, as such your engine will ru uleaded just fine thank you very much.

As far as cams are concerned, again a long stroke motor, so not really needed unless you are going for high revs. Easy to match the ports to the gasket by doing a bit of grinding and cleaning up. the best bang for the buck with these is compression. Infact one of the things folks have done is run the 201 heads on the large blocks as they have a smaller Combustion chamber area.

Go to carnut.com and check the specs area. It is easy to see that during the years of production the HP ratings went up in conjunction with marked increases in compression ratio. On the dodge side the 50 230 was rated at 103 HP at 7 to 1, in 54 this went to 110 with an increas to 7.25 to 1 in 56 at 8 to 1 the HP was 135. So same carb, same pistons, same cam, more HP.

As far as offset grinds, and other exotic stuff, not really effective cost vs gain.

Lighten and rebalance the flywheel, do a bore, mill the head deck the block, open up the ports, if you want to cross drill the crank, open up the exhust, and add some carburation and you will have a tractable and reliable street engine.

The transmission is bolted to the bellhousing with 4 bolts, and hangs there defying gravity. The bell sits on 2 rather large and stout steel and rubber mounts through a crossmember, the front of the engine sits on a laminated rubber isolator bolted to a sheet metal assembly that bolts to the frame. So the engine is hanging at the front and sitting on the crossmember at the rear.

Your oil filter is a sealed disposable canister that are nolonger being made. there are some out there but they go for stupid high money. You can pick up the style with replaceble drop i elements for 25 bucks and up. In the mean time leave what you have (the factory replacement replacement was 7k miles) till you can find the other style. the other cans will fit in the existing braket, you may need to alter the plumbing a bit, as some feed line go on top and some on the side.

This thead may be of interest to you

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_...ad.php?t=24666

Would suggest you check out the information available at P15 D24, site and the forum there, as your car is mechanically similar to the later models.
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:36 AM   #39
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I removed my stock engine because i am use to newer engines in my cars and the starting from stop to go was too much for me to bare.By the way i still have that engine and trans if someone is interested. Exterminator
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:45 AM   #40
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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... can these motor/trans' be supported via the 2 front and tail only like modern engine/trans combos...and whether it's wise to do so as well if the bellhousing can take that kind of strain.
I would not recommend such a mounting system. These engine are long and heavy.
There are an ample number of exposed/useful fasteners at the back of the block that can be used for attaching mounts. My adapter is thick enough that one could even drill&tap into the side to affix mounts if needed. If you want to change to a modern transmission then plan on some fab work. Even if you use a Plymouth bell and mount something like a Ranger/Mazda 5-speed the oem mounts are not likely to be in the same place as the fluid drive. I don't have samples of each to compare so maybe Plym 46 can opine.

As to increased power production, I would buy a forged piston and leave everything else alone. All of the 'small' expenses will add up so why not just make one purchase?
As to offset grinding, do you really want to make a 4.6" stroke bigger???

Allpar has some additional info: http://www.allpar.com/mopar/flat.html

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Old 12-11-2011, 11:23 AM   #41
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

There are 2 fairly comprhensive threads on P15 D 25 forum regarding 5 speeds. One using a S10 sourced one, and a more recent one regarding the Mazda/Ford, box, niether using adapters but rather modifying the bellhousing. Some have also mentioned using the mopar A833 from 70's volare/aspen, and light duty trucks and vans, another possibility is the Toyota supra 5 speed and the Dakota Jeep sourced Boxes. All OD units.

Others have swaped lower geared rears from Rangers, Exploreres early Cherokees Dakotas Early B bodies etc. for more relaxed cruising RPM.

Me, just tall tires, stock trans and 4.11 rear.

I would recommend getting yours running driving and stopping, and then do your evaluation based on real world experience. Do you really need 200+hp in a car with 10 inch drum brakes and a single pot MC???

The KISS process seems to be the most viable for these engines unless you are building for all out HP, which is wasted for street driving.
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Old 12-11-2011, 01:50 PM   #42
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Just went out and did a compression test on the block to see where I'm at, speedo shows 79k...could be 179k.
Ten cycles of rotation of the starter, all plugs out-
1-45
2-75
3-70
4-65
5-75
6-70

added some oil to #1 and redid, she came in at 55 this time.
Hmm, a rebuild seems inevitable.
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Old 12-11-2011, 02:04 PM   #43
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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1)...threads on P15 D 25 forum regarding 5 speeds.
2) I would recommend getting yours running driving and stopping, and then do your evaluation based on real world experience.
3) Do you really need 200+hp in a car with 10 inch drum brakes and a single pot MC???
1)I registered @ p15-d24 but the problem is I put in for it rather early in the morning{1am ish}, didn't have the foresite to write down the user name I got approved at because I expected an email confirmation with that...bad and wrong! Sent them an email asking for the user name/pass...untill it comes I can only watch.
2)working on that 1st of course....the sloppy shifter linkage is next up on the list!
3)no, around 120-130ish would be fine for my needs and current braking! Even if I swapped to front discs there'd be the limited amount of expected HP from the motor...I want to simply improve upon it alittle more than what she's got now, not blow it up. My 1st request for 150 was blind wish list, but now understanding the motor better I see that's pie in the sky.
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Old 12-11-2011, 02:16 PM   #44
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Have seen lots of these engines run on 75 lbs of compression. A couple of guys from western Canada mad a trip through the states to Hershey and back in a 47 Plymouth that had only slightly better compression when they set out. My guess would be you have a valve sticking on #1. It may free up after you get some heat into it, or you may need to pull the head to deal with it. Whe you get it running you may find that a vacuum gauge reading will give you a better picture of its internal condition. You may be able to free up the valve throughthe side cover under the exhaust manifold. There should be an access panel in the inner fender that will give you access. Some times you can wedge the spring and or turn it to get the valve to free up or seal better.

By the way post the engine number. Its on a boss on the block just under the head above the genny. With the ease of engine swaps on these cars it may not have its stock motor. The stock series number should start with a P10 (the engineering code for the series) then additional digits.

The webmaster on P15 D24 is a one man show. Some times it takes 48 hours or so to get an e mail confirmation. Mean while, go to the main page that hosts the forum and read the stuff that is there.

150 at the flywheel is not out of question for a 230.
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:07 PM   #45
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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By the way post the engine number.

The webmaster on P15 D24 is a one man show. Some times it takes 48 hours or so to get an e mail confirmation. Mean while, go to the main page that hosts the forum and read the stuff that is there.

150 at the flywheel is not out of question for a 230.
Block #P10 149532 / head #11208003-3 11/29


Oh, been doing that alot already..I want to be able to post though...good things are worth waiting for I guess...nice to be hear as usual in the meantime!{not that I plan to leave when registered there}
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Old 12-11-2011, 06:56 PM   #46
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Re cams for these motors, I'd check with Earl Edgerton (Edgy Cams). I had him regrind a cam for the engine in my '39 Ply coupe (see my avatar). He offers severl grinds. He is the guy to talk to re hopping up these motors. My engine is '55 Dodge 230, bored .060, Egge pistons, Langdon headers, Edmunds intake w/2 Carter carbs, re-worked distributor. The engine was an automatic (with 8 bolt pattern on crank) so we re-drilled the stock Ply flywheel so I could keep the Ply driveline.
If you do some searching you'll find a lot of after-mrket stuff for these motors.
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Old 12-11-2011, 07:04 PM   #47
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I forgot to mention - if you want to go for the big bucks and have something really exotic - Earl Edgerton makes an overhead valve conversion for these motors. If memory serves the complete kit (head, valve covers, cam, lifters, rockers, timing cover/chain, etc) runs about $5k. I saw this mentioned on a thread here a while back.
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:35 PM   #48
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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I forgot to mention - if you want to go for the big bucks and have something really exotic - Earl Edgerton makes an overhead valve conversion for these motors. If memory serves the complete kit (head, valve covers, cam, lifters, rockers, timing cover/chain, etc) runs about $5k. I saw this mentioned on a thread here a while back.
Ooooh, I just checked Earl's site out, nice stuff! I didn't see anything there about pistons or OHV conversions....but the intake manifold and heads were darn nice!
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:50 PM   #49
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Bad thing about the 25 inch engines is that there is limited speed equipment available for the larger engines.

Earl Edgerton (Edgy Speed Shop) also builds new finned aluminum heads.

Here is my 57 model 0.30 over 230 with Edgy Speed Shop head, offenhauser intake, Repop Fenton cast iron headers, Carter Webber 2bbl carbs and a mini HEI distributor. Backed by a 53 model OD trans and stock 4.10 gears. All in a 48 Plymouth Club Coupe.

Cruises at 70 with no problems.



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Old 12-11-2011, 10:39 PM   #50
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Quote:
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I forgot to mention - if you want to go for the big bucks and have something really exotic - Earl Edgerton makes an overhead valve conversion for these motors. If memory serves the complete kit (head, valve covers, cam, lifters, rockers, timing cover/chain, etc) runs about $5k. I saw this mentioned on a thread here a while back.
Here are some porno pix for ya - including Earl Edgy's F-head conversion....







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Old 12-12-2011, 09:49 AM   #51
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

At this point, George Asche needs to get mentioned...814.354.2621

You have free long distance on your cell phone, use it!

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Old 12-12-2011, 10:16 AM   #52
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I have seen the F head conversion on Earl's truck. I may be wrong but I think it is only made for Chrysler/DeSoto engines.
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:58 PM   #53
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

A bit of a caution, a short call to George usualy last about a hour.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:35 PM   #54
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

73RR, can you machine in dog ears for rear engine mounts when you cut out the flathead 6 adaptor plate?!...anyone ever do this?
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:39 PM   #55
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

At the risk of sounding stupid, who's george asche?


Question folks, concerning oil filters for these flathead 6s, I have the Wix #51035 toss canister on right now...what can I do for a remote screw on filter set up for ease of changing - how do you guys do it?
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:43 PM   #56
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Getting off subject for a moment, what do you mid 40 model year guys have for trans linkage...cable and rod like mine? My shift rods are really bad{loose} and the cable is not set right, hard to get from the front sector to the back{R-1/2-3}. Wish they made floor shifters for this set up....really.{I'd be in the minority on this, I'm sure}
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:46 PM   #57
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

hkestes- how much did that edgy head and manifold set you back?
Is that mini hei from the stovebolt site?


I wish ma mopar would've made a 1 wire alternator...
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Old 12-12-2011, 10:09 PM   #58
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

George is the recognized authority on MOPAR L 6 motors, he splits manifolds, rebuilds over drives, remans B ad B carbs, etc. Used to race the flatties for years in Western PA.

Your shift linkage is different from the post war cars, so I can't help you, but the transmissions are selector style. Check the rubber gromets at the steering column, and make sure the movement of the levers goes freely from detent to detent.

Also check the condition of the front and rear motor mounts as if they are squashed and sloopy they will cause the linkage to travel more than they should.
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:15 AM   #59
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Quote:
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Just went out and did a compression test on the block to see where I'm at, speedo shows 79k...could be 179k.
Ten cycles of rotation of the starter, all plugs out-
1-45
2-75
3-70
4-65
5-75
6-70

added some oil to #1 and redid, she came in at 55 this time.
Hmm, a rebuild seems inevitable.
When I got my car it had sat since 1976. I got it running the day I got it home. I thought it sounded great, real strong motor I thought. I took it for a quick spin, you know the kind when you just gotta see how she runs but you don't yet have brakes She barely had enough power to make it back on her own. I thought it had something to do with the M6 tranny.

Some time later a Rcranger was at my shop and I started it up so he could hear it run. He tells me theres something seriously wrong with my motor, almost like its skipping. Honestly I couldn't hear it. We pulled the plugs and just held a thumb over the holes to check compression. Sure enough I was only running on four out of six cylinders. Off comes the head, and we find out that the exhaust valves on the center two cylinders were stuck open.

Once we got those freed up I did the MMO treatment and its been fine ever since. After all this I found a note pad in the car showing all the service records. "engine job - 72,000miles" The car had 74,000 miles on it when I got it, and here I was thinking "wow, that Marvel Mystery Oil is really great stuff!!!"
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:19 AM   #60
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Quote:
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At this point, George Asche needs to get mentioned...814.354.2621

You have free long distance on your cell phone, use it!

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Be prepared to have a LOOOONNNGGG conversation. He likes to talk. Great guy
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:43 AM   #61
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Many years ago I put a big Chrysler six into a 1950 Dodge (Canadian) and didn't move anything, man that old Dodge would fly!
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:47 AM   #62
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

^^^^that's cuz mopar used the same long block for all cars/trucks made there. So just a bolt in for you.
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:40 PM   #63
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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hkestes- how much did that edgy head and manifold set you back?
Is that mini hei from the stovebolt site?


I wish ma mopar would've made a 1 wire alternator...
The head was $750 plus shipping. Pretty reasonable if you compare it to the price that some of the vintage stuff goes for, especially when you consider the condition of the plug threads and flatness of the old parts. The intake, distributor and headers came from the stovebolt site.

Edgy also is now producing intakes. You can find various intakes on ebay from time to time.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:06 PM   #64
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

OK I've got a flat 6 and trans from a '37 Dodge truck. It's 25". Is this right? And if so what cubes is it? I'm thinking of building a cheap little rod around it.

thanks!

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Originally Posted by plym_46 View Post
All Plymouth, Dodge, and Dodge trucks had 23 1/2 inch long blocks, as does mine. All Desoto, and Chrysler, and All Canadian built Cars and trucks used the 25 inch block. US 217.8 and 230 blocks from 1935 up are the same, the difference between the 217.8 and the 230 is the crank and rods. No plymouths used fulid drive and all early plymouths had a 4 bolt cranckshaft flange (till 53/4) All dodges with fluid drive regardless of transmission, used an 8 hole crank shaft flange (to accomodate the extra weight and length of the fluid drive unit) Plymouth 4 bolt flywheels will fit on the 8 bolt cranks but need to be alligned properly to the assymetrical hole pattern. Some later Plymouth 230 (mid year 54 and newer) used a 6 bolt flange. Some Dodge drive shaft flanges are thicker than Plymouth and some dodges. Dodge bellhousing are deeper than Plymouth to accomodate the fluid drive unit, Dodge transmissioin input shafts are longer than Plymouth when equiped with fluid drive. Most Dodges from 41 through 55 will have fluid drive, some Desoto and very few Chrylsers were not equiped fluid drive.

All mopar flat 6 setup use the bellhousing as the mounting and locating assembly. Bolting to a frame chrossmember in cars and to the frame rails on trucks and industrial applicatioins. that said the accomodation of the longer block will of necesity be forward of that mounting point. As noted sometimes it is as simple as moving the radiator to the front of the support, others will require modification of the front crossmember, and swaping of the oil pan and oil pump pickup.

Fluid drive is NOT THE TRANSMISSION.

Confused yet???
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:20 PM   #65
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

i know you said flat motors but there is a guy up in toledo area that runs a slant 6 motor in a late 40s plymouth but he said it took some doing to get it in.
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:29 PM   #66
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Yeah, someday I'd like to find one of 'those' 331 or 413 jobs...

.

Ill give you the one out of mine if I don't trade my truck off and put a different motor in it. 50/50 shot there...

I believe its a 331.

cb1

Last edited by cb1; 12-13-2011 at 04:43 PM. Reason: wrong motor size
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:45 PM   #67
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

More likely a 241ci or 251ci now that I look at my reference. May have to get a better look at the number on the block..

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Old 12-13-2011, 05:41 PM   #68
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Originally Posted by hillbilly4008 View Post
, and we find out that the exhaust valves on the center two cylinders were stuck open.

Once we got those freed up I did the MMO treatment and its been fine ever since. After all this I found a note pad in the car showing all the service records. "engine job - 72,000miles" The car had 74,000 miles on it when I got it, and here I was thinking "wow, that Marvel Mystery Oil is really great stuff!!!"
Lucky man! I heard the PO had rebuilt the carb but man the garage sticks of gas....I wonder what the oil smells like? The block has the usual front and rear leaks so a full gasket set is in order...figure I'll pull the carb and go thru it...maybe I should just pull the head and see what she's doing?!
I'll start soaking the head studs {PB blaster}and in a week or two try and pull it.
Funny thing about cars...sometimes they can get just as much problems from sitting than from constant running, and mine's been sitting!-alot!
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:47 PM   #69
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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OK I've got a flat 6 and trans from a '37 Dodge truck. It's 25". Is this right? And if so what cubes is it? I'm thinking of building a cheap little rod around it.

thanks!
Welcome aboard! This is why I wanted to start this thread, for all of us flahead folk!
-1st thing you should do is measure from the front of the head to the back...you'll be either just under 23" or 25" -which one you got?
-2nd, read off the block tag above the generator..there's folks here who can decode that. Simple premis is that even though your truck is a 37{nice!}, doesn't easily mean the motor has never been swapped along it's lifetime.
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:53 PM   #70
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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More likely a 241ci or 251ci now that I look at my reference. May have to get a better look at the number on the block..

cb1
Keep in touch with us about that block please...I know that if 73RR doesn't want it, I sure would...watching my feet now so I don't step on anyone's toes!
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:06 PM   #71
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Keep in touch with us about that block please...I know that if 73RR doesn't want it, I sure would...watching my feet now so I don't step on anyone's toes!
Too far to ship... Have at it.

Here is a link to ID numbers:
http://www.t137.com/registry/help/ot...herengines.php

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Old 12-13-2011, 07:16 PM   #72
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Welcome aboard! This is why I wanted to start this thread, for all of us flahead folk!
-1st thing you should do is measure from the front of the head to the back...you'll be either just under 23" or 25" -which one you got?
-2nd, read off the block tag above the generator..there's folks here who can decode that. Simple premis is that even though your truck is a 37{nice!}, doesn't easily mean the motor has never been swapped along it's lifetime.
I know it's just under 25". I'll have to check the #'s again. Thanks!
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:42 PM   #73
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Here is a cheater for folks trying to determine displacement. There is a pipe plug screwed into the head above #6 Cylinder. Removing it allows you to insert a length of stiff wire in order to determine the stroke as the wire will ride the piston through its stroke. Just don't use the starter, and make sure the wire is at least 7 inches long.

on the later models of 23 inch variety, 4 3/8 = 218, 4 5/8 = 230.

the earlier 198 and 201 motors had 4 3/8 stroke but smaller bore.

Dodges were 201 or 218 through the 1942 model year.
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Old 12-15-2011, 04:37 PM   #74
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I pulled the air cleaner off the other night just to get a good look at it {design} and for some reason I opened the throttle at the carb and saw a sizable pool of either oil or gas down the throat of the carb, in the intake manifold...I think I definately need to pull the side covers and maybe the head and check the valves for full closing. Mind you this could be a bad "high" float adjustment too...
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:07 PM   #75
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I have one of these engines, infact the whole car and have been thinking about a re-do on my 23 Dodge roadster, I'm pretty suire it's a low mileage 251 (engine # C38-95379) with the fluid drive . What I'd like to know is what flywheel/bell housing and clutch combination should I be looking for to eliminate the fluid coupling, and is there a way to adapt a Ford top loader to it. I think dressed up a bit it would look great in the 23 dodge.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:30 PM   #76
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

The Plymouth bellhousings ('normal' 3-speed) are the shortest/shallowest and may work with the Ford trans. Obviously, the bearing register diameter and bolt holes will need some work and a custom pilot bearing will likely be needed but the depth might be close. Others have used the t5 with success and the input lengths are close.
You will need to source a 146 tooth flywheel.

If an OD interests you I can adapt the AX15.
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Last edited by 73RR; 12-16-2011 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:35 PM   #77
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

What transmission does it have??? fluid drive is not the transmission it is the the transfer system between the engine and the transmision. If its the regular 3 speed, fairly likely in a windsor, whats the need for a change. With a light car the fluid drive will not even be noticed. They are about 95% effeicient in transfering power. If a modern trans is what you need check wil cap for thier adapters. I had a ride in a 251 powered A roadster backed up by a GM 350. It had more than sufficient get up and go. Athough I must admit that 65 on a Nebraska dirt road felt more like 90.

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Old 12-16-2011, 07:46 PM   #78
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

my friends 30 chrysler needs to be reringed, silver dome, is there any thing special about the rings in these engines? i have yet to pull the head so i'm not sure of the bore, also what about crank bearings and oil pumps are they easy to find, thanks for any help.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:55 PM   #79
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Thanks, I'll check out the flywheel and adaptors, my only concern with the fluid coupling is it's bulk and weight.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:09 PM   #80
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

pistons are oval ground aluminum alloy with 4 rings. Check Vintage power wagons for parts. 196 or 218 cu inch unless it an imperial. 3 1/8 bore, 4 1/4 or 4 2/4 stroke depending on model. egge also as pistons and so shold terrel machine in texas.
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:35 AM   #81
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

George Asche took us for a ride in his Dodge Sedan, '49 or 50 I think and it was an EYE OPENER to say the least. His is a 265 dual carb, cam, split exhaust and compression and a SIX speed stick and it set us back in the seats. Call George for all his specs
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:04 PM   #82
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Quote:
I can adapt the AX15
I've never even considered that adapters for modern 5 and 6 speed transmissions were available. I'll pull the engine and start cleaning it up. I'll be in touch.
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Old 12-17-2011, 07:52 PM   #83
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I found an Edmunds head in a junk yard a couple months ago, and have thought about building an engine under it.
The head sat on the front seat of a Crovair for at least 20 years--it's not all eaten up; water passages are good, combustion chambers look good.
It's for the 218/230.

In my barnstorming quest for a plan, I found some good stuff and had a few ideas.

From what I found, the 218 and 230 used the same pistons: the 230 used a longer stroke crank and made up the difference with shorter rods.
I thought I saw pics of pistons that had 4 rings; someone told me they only had 3, someone here in this post said they had 4.
Generally speaking, a set of forged pistons is usually $100 a slug. That would be in the neighborhood of $600 for a set of forged pistons.
A set of cast pistons is probably about half that, maybe a little more, maybe a little less.
But, if you used forged pistons, you could have modern rings put in it, and you'd only need three of them. There's power to be made with Zero Gap rings (if there's a set available for that bore diameter), and one less ring is less parasitic loss.
More importantly, if you have a set of pistons made, you can move the pin height up to use the longer 218 rods. You could also get rid of a bunch of skirt--the skirts on these pistons are about a yard long... it's like putting a connecting rod in a paper towel tube.
Less piston weight is always good, but a longer rod will give you more piston speed and should make a little more power because it hangs at TDC longer and creates more velocity when drawing the charge in because it runs down the bore quicker from TDC.

It's not more cubes like an offset ground crank would be, but it is a reasonable way to get a little more RPM and the performance of a longer rod.

Though it wouldn't be much of an argument to say that's like wizzing in a lake in an effort to raise its level.

-Brad
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:09 PM   #84
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Here is a link to ID numbers:
http://www.t137.com/registry/help/ot...herengines.php

.[/QUOTE]

I pulled my rear main cap from my 49 Plymouth L6 to replace the rope seal ... no rope - neoprene instead - and it is not attached with 3 bolts from circa 1955. So I am confused - I think somebody did not use the original type. Is a rope seal and neoprene interchangable?

And to the original intent of my post - due to my confusion above I tried to verify my engine. Big P on the head - but NOTHING is stamped on the block on the serial number pad (per link above). Am I missing something?

thanks
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:15 PM   #85
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Some of the old rebuilder used to remove the numbers from the pad below the head when they would rebuild the engine. In it place they would often attach a metal tag with the rebuild specs. Look around for a tag attached to the engine somewhere.
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:19 PM   #86
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Originally Posted by Brad54 View Post
I found an Edmunds head in a junk yard a couple months ago, and have thought about building an engine under it.
The head sat on the front seat of a Crovair for at least 20 years--it's not all eaten up; water passages are good, combustion chambers look good.
It's for the 218/230.

In my barnstorming quest for a plan, I found some good stuff and had a few ideas.

From what I found, the 218 and 230 used the same pistons: the 230 used a longer stroke crank and made up the difference with shorter rods.
I thought I saw pics of pistons that had 4 rings; someone told me they only had 3, someone here in this post said they had 4.
Generally speaking, a set of forged pistons is usually $100 a slug. That would be in the neighborhood of $600 for a set of forged pistons.
A set of cast pistons is probably about half that, maybe a little more, maybe a little less.
But, if you used forged pistons, you could have modern rings put in it, and you'd only need three of them. There's power to be made with Zero Gap rings (if there's a set available for that bore diameter), and one less ring is less parasitic loss.
More importantly, if you have a set of pistons made, you can move the pin height up to use the longer 218 rods. You could also get rid of a bunch of skirt--the skirts on these pistons are about a yard long... it's like putting a connecting rod in a paper towel tube.
Less piston weight is always good, but a longer rod will give you more piston speed and should make a little more power because it hangs at TDC longer and creates more velocity when drawing the charge in because it runs down the bore quicker from TDC.

It's not more cubes like an offset ground crank would be, but it is a reasonable way to get a little more RPM and the performance of a longer rod.

Though it wouldn't be much of an argument to say that's like wizzing in a lake in an effort to raise its level.

-Brad
One of the guys on the P15-D24 site had Venolia build some custom pistons for his 230 rebuild.

"I had Venolia make some forged pistons for my overbored 230 that were gorgeous. I just sent them a stock piston, a bore diameter, some thoughts on wristpins, and a set of rings that I wanted to use, and was very pleased with the results."

"Pistons shouldn't be a big deal. I looked back through my old records, and found that in September of 1996 Venolia made me a custom set of forged pistons for my 230 with an uncommon size and a metric ring package (a long story) for just $412.51, including shipping"

If you are lucky they may still have the specs for those pistons.

Last edited by hkestes; 12-17-2011 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 12-17-2011, 11:11 PM   #87
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

And to the original intent of my post - due to my confusion above I tried to verify my engine. Big P on the head - but NOTHING is stamped on the block on the serial number pad (per link above). Am I missing something?

Chrysler sold un numbered blocks to rebuilders. Chysler had a Method that they liscensed to rebuilders that specified only blocks the check out to Standard Bearing specs could be used for these Chrysler method rebuilds. Others like as mentioned usually riveted a tab specifying the over unders used but those many time get knocked of.

So your block is likely an unumbered block that got asembled aftermarket and somebody forgot the stamp in the number part. Alot of states also used engine numbers for registration and titling purposes so these unstamped blocks allowed the rebuilder to stamp in the original number to keep documents matching the vehicle.

The P generaly designates Plymouth but who knows what year.

I believe I read where some one installed Toyota supra pistos after having his block bored to their specs. I believe it has been stated that the blocks can go to .090 over bore and still maintain enough material between cylinders as to not be troublesome.

Do keep in mind that in the short blocks the pairs of cylinders are siamesed and the rods for the pair are offset, and they need to be maintained in thier respective pairs.

Also of some interest is the size and design of the combustion chambers. If you look at a 218, when the piston is a TDC, they sit down about 3/32 in the bore. On the 230, the psiton is nearly flush with the deck of the block. It is said that 218 combustion chambers are smaller in volume than the 230 heads to keep compression ratios reletively the same. Some have mentioned that the 218 heads combined with a 230 block yield a tighter squeeze. I do not know if there is any positive writen confirmation of the differences, but it has been discussed in several places. Also if you look at the spec charts through the years, HP goes up associated with more compression from the 30's through the late 50's. Unfortunately, I did not compare the 46 218 head to the 56 230 head, I just milled the 230 head .040 and had .010 taken off the block.
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:30 AM   #88
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Everything you wanted to know about mopar flat head 6 engine numbers

site also has an embeded serial number lookup for vehicle information

http://www.t137.com/registry/help/ot...herengines.php
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Old 12-18-2011, 04:51 PM   #89
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Also of some interest is the size and design of the combustion chambers. If you look at a 218, when the piston is a TDC, they sit down about 3/32 in the bore. On the 230, the psiton is nearly flush with the deck of the block. It is said that 218 combustion chambers are smaller in volume than the 230 heads to keep compression ratios reletively the same. Some have mentioned that the 218 heads combined with a 230 block yield a tighter squeeze. I do not know if there is any positive writen confirmation of the differences, but it has been discussed in several places. Also if you look at the spec charts through the years, HP goes up associated with more compression from the 30's through the late 50's. Unfortunately, I did not compare the 46 218 head to the 56 230 head, I just milled the 230 head .040 and had .010 taken off the block.[/QUOTE]

Would a mild hop up on a 218 like milling the head .50 and split stock exhaust be a noticeable difference in power?
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:02 PM   #90
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

218s went from 87 to 100 Hp at the flywheel with not much more that increased compression from 6.5 through 7.1 So what do you suppose would happen by taking the CR to 8.5 and improving the breathing???
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:17 PM   #91
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Noting that increasing the Cr, fuel and breathing is an increase in HP...just wondering how much bigger a single carb could be had from the stock sized one to try an attempt at a stealth build...stock looking but better than meets the eye....?...eye candy is always nice but it really comes down to what's also inside that makes a difference.
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:00 PM   #92
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

A good balance job and an increase in compression ratio will do most of that. 250 to 300 CFM is all the engine will need.
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Old 12-18-2011, 10:35 PM   #93
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Unfortunately, most of the single barrels are pretty much the same throttle bore size, You might get a bit more power by fidling with the main jet or if you could find something with ab externally adjustable jet. That said Plymouth offered a single 2bbl option in 56. This took the 230's HP from 125 to 132. A couple of folks have use adapters to mount a single 2bbl, the adapters are available for about 20 to 30 bucks from various speed shops. Only problem is they turn the carb 90 degrees meaning throttle linkage needs to be modified for the application. there are probably other options, but under the aircleaner the 2bbl would probably look most stock without close inspection.
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:11 AM   #94
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

We're building a 1934 Dodge 218 for our HA/GR project. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=189651 Figure the 1/4" less stroke will allow it to rev better than a 230 and with the difference of only 12 cu in we should come out OK.

Had a Military Dodge M37B1 with a 230 and it wasn't the fastest thing out there, but it would run all day long a 57 mph with the throttle on the stop and would climb a tree if it could get traction.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:15 AM   #95
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Maybe I've spent too many years swinging a leg over two wheels, but has anyone ever messed with mikuni side draft carbs for a flathead? Harleys have used them for eons and they're in the nearly same rpm range as these flathead motors...I could slmost picture 3, 28-34mm mics hanging off the side of a flathead 6 - one carb per 2 cylinders. The hard part is figuring out the actual cfm ratings for these carbs to get the amount of needed cfm flow right.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:45 AM   #96
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Actually, this has been done. The 'search' button is your friend, both here, and over at p15 where you will find a you-tube video of such (low quality video but still a video...)

.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:57 AM   #97
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

440,

What are your plans for the engine? I see the SU's in early pics, are they still in the picture? I had a set from a 3 liter Triumph TR6 for my 230, but a fenton intake dropped in my lap so I wnet with the dual carters. I have had my 230 on a chassis dyno, and it is doing 127 HP at the rear wheels at 3200 RPM. So there is probably another 6 or 7 there at 3600 where the factory rated Peak HP. Which would probably translate to 145/150 or so at the flywheel taking out drive train losses.

Would think for 1/4 mile useage taking a bunch of weight out of the flywheel would likely make a lot of difference. Might also ditch the Harmonic balancer if ti has one for the plain pulley.

So Port matching the intakes and exhausts to the manifold gaskets, upping the compression, and losing some weight seems like a reliable way to make it run pretty well. I noticed Hudsonator posted a couple items on your thread. He had a Mopar flat 6 pulling tractor that made a lot of believers out of flat 6 skeptics. You might want to give him a hollar about what he did to the oiling system that allowed him to twist it to 5K + reliably.

Also a fellow on the P15 D25 board just detailed his modifications of /6 electronic dizzy to work in his flattie, which will run the Chrysler electronic igition.

I think you might suprise some of the guys with the "other" engines.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:05 AM   #98
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

201 with triple carbs, lots of info in this thread regarding carbs and stuff.

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_...ad.php?t=24666
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:49 AM   #99
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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440,

What are your plans for the engine? I see the SU's in early pics, are they still in the picture? I had a set from a 3 liter Triumph TR6 for my 230, but a fenton intake dropped in my lap so I wnet with the dual carters. I have had my 230 on a chassis dyno, and it is doing 127 HP at the rear wheels at 3200 RPM. So there is probably another 6 or 7 there at 3600 where the factory hated Peak HP. Which would probably translate to 145/150 or so at the flywheel taking out drive train losses.

Would think for 1/4 mile useage taking a bunch of weight out of the flywheel would likely make a lot of difference. Might also ditch the Harmonic balancer if ti has one for the plain pulley.

So Port matching the intakes and exhausts to the manifold gaskets, upping the compression, and losing some weight seems like a reliable way to make it run pretty well. I noticed Hudsonator posted a couple items on your thread. He had a Mopar flat 6 pulling tractor that made a lot of believers out of flat 6 skeptics. You might want to give him a hollar about what he did to the oiling system that allowed him to twist it to 5K + reliably.

Also a fellow on the P15 D25 board just detailed his modifications of /6 electronic dizzy to work in his flattie, which will run the Chrysler electronic igition.

I think you might suprise some of the guys with the "other" engines.
We're running the pair of 1 3/4" SUs for intake, I have experience tuning them from back in our sports car days. Starting out with a basically stock cam and bumping the compression a bit with a shaved cast iron head. The ports are massaged some and the oiling will be taken care of too. The flywheel has gone on a serious diet as well and the heavy balancer has met the scrap bin, being replaced with an aluminum degree wheel. The ignition will remain points and condenser for ease of tuning, (see my sig line, my brain doesn't do electronics, but I still can diagnose points with ease).

Hoping to keep the car in the 1,000 lb range and figure that the little engine should do just fine. Plan on digging up some of my tricks from "back in the day". Started drag racing in 1962 with a flathead '53 Ford Victoria gasser and other than the roll cage, the whole project is designed around that kind of technology.

We may not have the quickest and fastest car out there, but we're planning on having the biggest grins.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:57 AM   #100
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Actually, this has been done. The 'search' button is your friend, both here, and over at p15 where you will find a you-tube video of such (low quality video but still a video...)

.
What's a good search title for that vid?...."flathead 6 with mikunis"?
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:43 AM   #101
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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What's a good search title for that vid?...."flathead 6 with mikunis"?

Sorry, meant to include the link, just use 'mikuni':
http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_...archid=1175082

Or this one... http://olskoolrodz.com/forum/showthr...ghlight=mikuni

.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:29 PM   #102
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

^^^ 73RR your first link is a dead end. the second one certainly goes into a lot of detail but does not result in but one installed and running engine. I believe the last o is from the fellow here who put together what he called hsi full race flattie, and it failed on his first run of any consequence. the car is listed i the classifieds here if I'm not mistaken.

But it may all go to prove that when one builds one of these regardless of displacement, what you end up with is a long stroke engine that works best below a 4500 redline, and any attempt to go above that is best left to others.

I like mine, I like the way it runs, and its dependability.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:18 PM   #103
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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What's a good search title for that vid?...."flathead 6 with mikunis"?
Just try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDAVWBtDu64
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:11 PM   #104
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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^^^ 73RR your first link is a dead end. the second one certainly goes into a lot of detail but does not result in but one installed and running engine. I believe the last o is from the fellow here who put together what he called hsi full race flattie, and it failed on his first run of any consequence. the car is listed i the classifieds here if I'm not mistaken.

But it may all go to prove that when one builds one of these regardless of displacement, what you end up with is a long stroke engine that works best below a 4500 redline, and any attempt to go above that is best left to others.

I like mine, I like the way it runs, and its dependability.

Well dag nabbit all....this here compooooter machine is jest not veery helpful.....
Modeljunkie was/is looking for info so I was trying to offer what he, apparently, hadn't yet found.
Multiple carbs on any engine can be a challenge and an IR intake has its own issues. I am not suggesting that they are or are not a viable option, each of us have to make that decision for ourselves.
The bottom line is how much work you/he/anyone is willing to put into a project in order to have something unique...bragging rights...and also have something that runs, drives and has a modicum of reliability.
In my little corner of the world I prefer to use a single carb on whatever the engine happens to be except when we discuss Webers.

I do agree with you in regards to working within the confines of what the engine design has to offer.

.
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:55 PM   #105
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Interesting thread. Remember a Plymouth 6 won the first Southern 500 at Darlington S.C.
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:17 AM   #106
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Basically cuz it was running on truck tires and had to make fewer pit stops for tires and fuel. Still a good showing against a starting field of 75 cars.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:42 AM   #107
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I'll check out the mikuni link in a minute- Thanks!

In the meantime I have an odd question...what a shock, huh?
I spied this long ago on mine and when some folks here mentioned rebuilt engines that had a tag I got to thinking...
Here's a pic of the remnants of a tag near my engine number...could this possibly be a tag stating a rebuilt engine or just a factory tag that got ripped off long ago?
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:59 PM   #108
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Consider that rebuilt engines were available from literally dozens of vendors including the likes of Sears and Wards so the shape of the tag could be whatever their standards were.
The over-the-counter replacements from Mopar had a completely blank pad and some rebuilders then stamped them to match the original...recall that some states used the engine number on the title and rebuilders had to stay in line.

Your remnant certainly could be from a rebuilder.

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Old 12-20-2011, 02:39 PM   #109
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

That scratching on the block # boss makes me wonder, but the tag has a little boss that it's attached to that looks cast in...you can't add that after the fact.
Just seems odd.......



Oh, check your PMs...
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:33 PM   #110
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Definately a rebuilders tag, but the original engine number starts with P10 which means it correct to the year of the car's manufacture. As noted there were lots of rebuilders, From Sears and Roebuck to Jasper, and folks that used the Chrysler Method, these were licensees that signed into The official mopar rebuilding specs. these rejected blocks that needed more than .010 off the crank rods or mains.

Here is a thread discussing some of the posibilities. Other threads have discussed engies with different color paint, Jasper used a distinctive green, others used a machine grey, and still other did not redo the outside of the block.

here is a recent discussion

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_...ght=rebuilders
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:04 PM   #111
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

We sent a lot of the engines out of the M37s to an outfit called Lomac in portland, they also supplyed engines for Sears in this area.
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Old 12-23-2011, 08:47 AM   #112
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Got some seafoam and marvel mystery oil last night...between either one of those I'm hoping to gain some compression back if I'm lucky.
Now, for a question- can I use the pictured remote oil filter on my system so long as I reduce the fittings down to the needed 1/8"?
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Old 12-23-2011, 09:13 AM   #113
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Bob sence your in Farm country check out tractor salvages Massey 92 combines used dodge and Chrysler Sixes.
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Old 12-25-2011, 11:11 AM   #114
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Bob sence your in Farm country check out tractor salvages Massey 92 combines used dodge and Chrysler Sixes.
We're leaving soon to head over to princeton for my wifes family gathering...I intend to pick some brains while there...and eat too much of Pats great cooking as usual - her aunt can cook!{wish my wife could cook half that well-hahaha}
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:46 PM   #115
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

While trying to remove some very stubborn floor board bolts to better access some sloppy shift lickage issues, I went into the engine bay to try and remove some high beam wires for when the floor does finally come out and noticed something odd...down at the very bottom of my motor, low left of the dizzy were some cast in block markings - a date code... 10-27-48 with a capital A over them. Now I have a very slight idea of when the motor was replaced on mine..slight only because I have no idea how long this puppy sat before being installed in my car...nor whether it's still a 201 block - or better.
Aside from pulling the head and checking bore diameter and piston travel, is there any way of disterning the size of the engine via some stamping on the block?
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Old 12-29-2011, 06:48 PM   #116
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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We're leaving soon to head over to princeton for my wifes family gathering...I intend to pick some brains while there...and eat too much of Pats great cooking as usual - her aunt can cook!{wish my wife could cook half that well-hahaha}
No luck there...the joys of them owning a fordson/new holland parts dealership...ralph did show me a pic of their old 38 plymouth 4 door though after 3hrs of searching for it...worth it just for that alone!
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:45 PM   #117
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Hmmm...the devil is making me think it!!!!!!! I happen to have a blower off of a 54 kaiser manhattan..a mcculloch vs57...has the kaiser badge and all - cept no dang tensioner pulley nor kaiser L6 motor bracket.
I'd bet the ol kaiser L6 had the same specs for rpm usage as a mopar L6 and eons ago paxton said they'd rebuild mine, but to a set pulley size only-no vari drive, if I sent it to them...don't remember how much and that was then anyway, not todays money.

Anyone know, seen, or has a mopar L6 with a mcculloch/paxton supercharger on it...this would be too cool...and get the blower off my shelf where it's been for eons!
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:10 PM   #118
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Got some seafoam and marvel mystery oil last night...between either one of those I'm hoping to gain some compression back if I'm lucky.
Now, for a question- can I use the pictured remote oil filter on my system so long as I reduce the fittings down to the needed 1/8"?

I used one of these on my L6.
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:10 PM   #119
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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I used one of these on my L6.
Got a pic, I'd like to see how you plumbed it.
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Old 12-30-2011, 11:35 AM   #120
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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Hmmm...the devil is making me think it!!!!!!! I happen to have a blower off of a 54 kaiser manhattan..a mcculloch vs57...has the kaiser badge and all - cept no dang tensioner pulley nor kaiser L6 motor bracket.
I'd bet the ol kaiser L6 had the same specs for rpm usage as a mopar L6 and eons ago paxton said they'd rebuild mine, but to a set pulley size only-no vari drive, if I sent it to them...don't remember how much and that was then anyway, not todays money.

Anyone know, seen, or has a mopar L6 with a mcculloch/paxton supercharger on it...this would be too cool...and get the blower off my shelf where it's been for eons!
Saw a Dodge pickup a few years ago at the James Dean show in Fairmont, had a turbo from a Ford T-Bird 2.3 plumbed in. He said it turned his 218 into a 318!
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:05 PM   #121
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

How does a super interesting thread go so strong and just die?

Please continue the banter about flat head Mopar 6's.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:17 PM   #122
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

looks like most of those whom had something to say said it.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:18 PM   #123
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Probably cuz of the P15D24 forums.


That's if you can stomach their arogance
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:53 PM   #124
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I've got a 230 in my '42 Dodge Carryall. I believe the military version is rated at less than 100 hp. It takes some patience to pull a nearly 6,000 lb truck, but it does pull it. Check out www.dodgepowerwagon.com or Vintage Power Wagons in Fairfield, IA for sources of parts. 230s are plentiful there.

I couldn't stand to put a V-8 in this old truck. I'm experimenting with a Chrysler straight-eight. It is 324 cubic inches, 135 hp and 275 lb-ft torque at 1200 rpm. It's gonna take some serious re-engineering for the added length, but I think it is doable in the truck.

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Old 07-08-2013, 10:09 AM   #125
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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I've got a 230 in my '42 Dodge Carryall.
I couldn't stand to put a V-8 in this old truck. I'm experimenting with a Chrysler straight-eight. It is 324 cubic inches, 135 hp and 275 lb-ft torque at 1200 rpm. It's gonna take some serious re-engineering for the added length, but I think it is doable in the truck.
The L8 is an interesting engine to be sure but you will spend some serious time/money trying to get it to fit. The first obstacle you will find is that the bellhousing bolt pattern is completely different than the L6 so it is not a bolt-up.
Although the idea of a v-8 may make you cringe, they will likely be a lot less work and even a 360 can double the HP/TQ. If you need old-skool then look at the 318 Poly (check out Chrysler Power Magazine for a new engine building series featuring the 318P)
If you just-gotta stay with an inliner then look at the Jeep 4.0 or go completely wild and look at the JAG 4.2.


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Old 07-08-2013, 11:16 AM   #126
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

The straight-eight does bolt up to the Power Wagon bellhousing, and I've got my clutch and flywheel all together. The front motor mount even fits, I just need nine inches additonal room between front and back. That was easier than you might think on my truck platform. It would be much harder in a car.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:30 AM   #127
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

My half a bubble off high school buddy joe drove his 50 plymouth up to my dads house. I said Joe the pan is leaking. He replied no it isnt, there isnt one on it, Im going to the parts store to get a pan gasket. We looked underneath and sure enough there wasnt one on it, Id like to report a happy ending but the rods started knocking. They were tough, just dont turn them too high. We put a lot of straight 8 Chryslers in them back then, early 60s
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:37 PM   #128
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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The straight-eight does bolt up to the Power Wagon bellhousing, and I've got my clutch and flywheel all together. The front motor mount even fits, I just need nine inches additonal room between front and back. That was easier than you might think on my truck platform. It would be much harder in a car.
The big Chrysler flathead 6 works well too.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:46 PM   #129
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Suggest you use the larger Chrysler/DeSoto/ Dodge truck engine. It was actually used in Power Wagons in the fifties, the last vehicle Chrysler built with flatheads was a 68 military Power Wagon with the 251 six.

In stock form 265 cu in 120HP. Can be bored to 283 cu in. With a little work you should be able to get 150HP without using very high compression or going too radical on the cams etc.

Also comes stock with full flow oil filter.

To me this would be easier and better than the straight 8. I like the straight eight but parts are hard to get. I don't think it would have much advantage over a good big six.
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:48 PM   #130
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

[QUOTE=Rusty O'Toole;9045610] I like the straight eight but parts are hard to get. QUOTE]

Yep. My eight came out of a'39 Imperial parts car that was sitting in Dad's barn lot being stored for a friend. We traded storage and labor for parts. My motor was free (not counting the machine work to rebuild it.) It sat there in my back yard for a long time befire finally calling to me to yank it out.

The 251 or 265 is what I would put in a more moderate build. The BIG truck six was over 400 cubes, and probbaly rivals the eight in overall dimensions.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:35 PM   #131
alsancle
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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The straight-eight does bolt up to the Power Wagon bellhousing, and I've got my clutch and flywheel all together. The front motor mount even fits, I just need nine inches additonal room between front and back. That was easier than you might think on my truck platform. It would be much harder in a car.
My understanding is that the bolt patterns on the bell housing for the 23 inch, 25 inch and Straight 8 Mopar are all the same. But I don't know that as a fact so any confirmation from somebody that really knows would be appreciated! I've been particularly interested in putting a late 30s 3 speed top shift overdrive from the 8 into a later 3 on the tree 6 banger car.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:15 PM   #132
plym_46
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

The 265 torque out at just about 210, Look for them at airports in tugs and ground support equipment, or if the is old farm equipment about, look for Massey Ferguson combines. They were powered by 251 and 265 flat 6. Beides finding room for 2 inches i length is gonna be easier than 4 or 5 of the Straight 8, and parts for those are scarce and pricey. Plus they gotta weigh close to 850 lbs. w/o the trans.

Hope that wasn't too arrogant.
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Old 07-08-2013, 04:37 PM   #133
Barn Find
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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My understanding is that the bolt patterns on the bell housing for the 23 inch, 25 inch and Straight 8 Mopar are all the same. But I don't know that as a fact so any confirmation from somebody that really knows would be appreciated! I've been particularly interested in putting a late 30s 3 speed top shift overdrive from the 8 into a later 3 on the tree 6 banger car.
I have them bolted together. I had to source a clutch from a 2-ton truck that would bolt to the eight flywheel and match my 1-ton truck four speed. The bellhousing defintiley bolts up.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:18 PM   #134
bigboy308
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

I know of one person that is installing a 308ci Hudson Hornet flathead engine in an early Plymouth Coupe. 1/2" stroker crank takes it to about 350ci. Using a 700 R4 o/d behind all.

Might fool some of the people!!
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:30 AM   #135
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

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I have them bolted together. I had to source a clutch from a 2-ton truck that would bolt to the eight flywheel and match my 1-ton truck four speed. The bellhousing defintiley bolts up.
Either you have a bell with dual bolt patterns (which Chrysler did on occasion) or, there are two very different L-8 blocks out there (which I kinda doubt).
Last year I made a one-off adapter for an L-8 and the back of the block wasn't even close the an L-6 design (I have those adapters on the shelf)...just sayin'...

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Old 01-06-2014, 12:26 AM   #136
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Default Re: Mopar flathead 6 motors- whats to be expected

Per conversation with Mr Asche I wouldn't be too concerned about occasionally turning 4,500 RPM in a 265. The motors were popular in mid-duty trucks and were very dependable in hard use when properly maintained. George told me that he's ran the flatheads hard since he was a teenager and never had a failure that wasn't anticipated. He said that odds are that when rods have been thrown in flathead that the bearings were badly worn with low oil pressure and the oil level in the sump was also low. Now, that being said these motors can run for years in badly wounded condition without making much of a complaint. That is also a reason that these motors have a reputation for being a dog - many of them are flat worn out but seemingly running smoothly. He said that the rods won't cut loose without advance warning, that if you pay attention to the condition of the motor - watch the oil pressure and temperate as you should with any motor, there is little to worry about. Even at 150 HP the internals are not highly stressed. These motors make torque at low speeds so that unless you have a light car you won't have a need to operate at high RPM anyway. With modern oils there is an extra margin of safety, and you can do the oil system mods. I got my 265 from George, it has a standard spec crank. Although not traditional I might consider fuel injection to help distribute fuel more evenly, the two and three carb setups are cool, but EFI might be a good, although I'm sure that's not popular on this board and fully agree, yet fuel injection was used back then, although not on vehicles. I think 150 HP wouldn't be on the ragged edge, I think you could drive across the US at that level of output in a 283 ( 4.6 liter ) flathead six. A 5 or 6 speed would be good to keep the motor in its torque curve, the 200R4 is gaining some popularity with these sixes.
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