Fear & Loathing The Classic Car Dealer

[concealledweapon]

i had the same exact thing happen to me when i had a car up for sale

nothing but idiots coming to my house slinging their car flipper bullshit

trying to pick my car apart,thinking they are talking to some idiot who doesn't know any better.

heck,i even had several people fly in from out of town,and fly back home without the car,because they thought i would bend over because they brought cash.

as far as i am concerned,Ryan was being nice saying only 99% of classic car dealers are maggots.

[concealledweapon]

Originally Posted by Ryan

You missed my point. I don't care about profitability. That part doesn't bother me at all.

to me,i believe you're talking about the deception used by these mf'ers.

some people actually think that's ok.

[sammamishsam]

I think I still have missed your point, Ryan. Is the hot rod world better or worse because of the technology today? Are there unscrupulous car salesmen? Are the bad deals waiting unsuspecting buyers on the Internet? Caveat Emptor, a fool and his money are soon parted. There's a sucker born every day. Technology hasn't changed those maxims, just enabled them to happen more quickly and over a global neighborhood rather than within a 50 mile radius of home. It's a thought provoking read you posted but I'm still a little puzzled about where you were going with the rhetoric. Obviously this is a sore subject with a lot of folks and you did a good job of raising a discussion.

[wvenfield]

Sorry boss. I enjoy your posts but this one is stupid.....I'm short on time and haven't read all the replies yet.

1. this isn't something new, it's been going on for a long time.
2. Just as often is the other side of the coin where the seller fails to divulge some major problem that they know is there.

P.S. I am not a classic car dealer.

[hemifarris]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I'm sure it is. But what's the grand purpose of the job? History tells us that nothing survives if it only takes. Everything has to give back at least a little bit. What does a dealer give back?

Ryan, You said that you had, and still have, a friend that's a Classic Car dealer. Is he one of those guys that only takes and never gets back? If so, why is he still your friend? If not, then all classic car dealers don't qualify. What does your friend feel the grand purpose of his job is? Make a living for him and his family? In today's world I think you could put the phrase "fear & loathing" in front of just about any type of business. There's good and bad in all of them. In the almost 6 years I've been a member of HAMB I've read threads where mere mortals on here have made great deals because of someone's ignorance.
Just my opinion..I'm not, nor have I ever been a dealer.......Mike

[Ryan]

I believe that businesses should strive to give value. By value I mean, if you sell something for $10, you should try your damnedest to make sure your customer feels like they got $12 worth of value out of the deal. Above and beyond. To me, that surplus is very important...

In today's world (with technology and all), I feel like there is just so much motive for a dealer not to think that way. He's not really in the "location" business anymore. To turn a profit, he has to hone his negotiation skills to buy things cheap and then figure out a way to add margin to make things work out in the end. I just don't see where a dealer can find the room for the surplus that I spoke about above. Instead, he cuts corners to put food on the table.

That said, I realize there are dealers that do find that surplus and they do it out of passion... Unfortunately, however, I believe that there are just too many dealers out there that don't care about or even acknowledge the surplus. I'd bet most of the dealers that posted in this thread would agree with me.

At the end of the day, I'm old fashioned. I cherish honesty and the good word more than I do profitability or smart posturing.

Like I said though, this isn't about profitability. It's about whether or not this new world leaves a big enough space for an honest dealer to survive.

[earl schieb]

Originally Posted by Jeem

Man....I see right down the middle of both approaches here (Ryan's and Harrison's). I love the idea of free enterprise, and therefore agree with Harrison. However, I wholeheartedly agree with a quote I read from Ed Roth, something to the effect of self policing. In other words, sure, charge what you will, make the best money you can, but have a conscience. I'm not a very spiritual person, but I do live by the golden rule. Bending someone over, because you think you can, does not mean you should. And THAT my friends is what it's all about. And to that end, I'm not a big fan of the "Teddies" of the world.

Wise words from a wise man.

[brandyspaw]

This thread is kind of a sore point for me. I've worked in the automotive industry my entire life. Now retired, I look back over the years of working with and for classic car dealers. I have to honestly say that every classic car dealer (and every bread and butter car dealer for that matter) will steal your teeth IF you let them.

I'm sure there must be some exceptions. Theres got to be a few good dealers out there but they are few and far between. Most will take advantage of you if they can. I've been burned more times than I care to remember whenever I was stupid enough to let my guard down. You just have to be ever alert and ever skeptical.

That said, all consumers have the responsibilty to do their homework and trust no one. Regardless if they are sellers or buyers they have to be able to take care of themselves or they will fall victim to unscrupulous and unethical classic car dealers.

[-Brent-]

I didn't take the time to read everyone's comments. However, I'll say this. To me, it's not an issue of reselling a collectible item be it a car or anything else. Rather, I take issue with the deceit and overall lack of integrity and authenticity.

"Teddie" could have still profitted and been honest. Add to that, he could have represented the car for what it is, done less work (no need to hide) and had a customer willing to return OR better yet tell his buddy about a Ted, the guy that finds good deals and passes them on while making a few bucks.

[390cad]

Originally Posted by bobwop

Dealer Here!

It sickens me that the reputation is earned. I saw the vultures in action this weekend at Back to the 50's. But as noted, some are different.

A good dealer provides an accurate and thorough inspection. In this State, a "Buyer's Guide" is required by law. Dealers are licensed, bonded, inspected and certainly have standards to abide by. But WI is a consumer oriented State. Other States may have weaker laws

My pal Povertyflats gets a kick out of our commitment to insuring the features of the vehicle work as they should. He is especially humored by our bragging that the dome lights work. Buying from an individual will not get you a written inspection report. I can speak from experience when I say how easy it is to neglect a thorough inspection due to the excitement created when a great car is found. At times, they aren't so great after learning of all the defects.

A dealer will provide a shopping center of sorts that is accessible through advertising or the internet. A prospective customer has the opportunity to sift through some variety.

A dealer will typically offer some expertise. Perhaps that is the rub in this situation. A good dealer will have expertise on many different makes and models.

A dealer provides a product at a stated price. There is no law that says all classic cars must be sold by dealers. Yet many people choose to buy their classic cars from dealers. That suggests a dealer must be providing some value. I am proud to say that we have many, many repeat customers.

Buying from an individual is a dead end street. Whether that person is a curbstoner (flipper) or just some old lady selling a car to finance a home project, there is no recourse. Let the Buyer Beware.

A dealer is accountable, to a degree. In some States, that may not be much value. In others, like WI, the customer has means and power to correct a wrong.

I acknowledge that the reputation is deserved. Probably more so in the 50's, 60's and 70's when rolling odometers was the norm.

I am saddened that a subject like this has been chosen as a headliner.

Well Said , as Ryan said it does not include all but there are some good ones , I have the knowledge on cars to research my own purchases however I find being in that industry that people who do not or can't be bothered doing the research look to Dealers to help them with their purchase , that's where it all falls apart , the good guys will help , the Devils swoop .

I have to say though , when I get excited about a purchase even I go in blind with rose coloured glasses sometimes , it happens.......but if you take drugs to solve anything like scotty , man , stay away from the car scene !!

cad

[agtw31]

if a dealer has to bad mouth the average joe trying to sell a car
that's a pretty good sign that dealer is a scumbag

it's called denial through distraction.

instead of addressing the issue,they turn the subject to a totally different person to throw the blame another direction.

typical car pumper bullshit

[Landmule]

Being in any business is hard. If the last few years have taught us anything, most of us should understand that. However, the issue of integrity is important. If a business is to survive, it must do obviously by being profitable, in the long run, I agree that integrity and value play a big role too. Whether you're buying a car paying someone to do work on it, we all value and look for vendors that will provide a good value for our $$. Businesses are just a reflection of the people that operate them and perhaps this is why we all prefer to do business with those that we know. Although I don't know most or maybe any of you personally, I have a perception that there are people with whom I can have an honest discussion on the HAMB and people who will give me good advice because of our shared passion. No doubt there are some scoundrels on here too, but as a whole, the community is a positive one. I have asked and received very good answers to wide ranging questions related to cars in general on this board. I've used several HAMB Alliance vendors specifically because of this connection and always been treated well. However, as a business person myself, I completely agree with Ryan's notion that good business involves giving your customer more than they expect - and striving to go beyond their expectations. In the end, whether we do business in person, over the internet, or any other way, service and integrity are the only ways we can distinguish our businesses from others. The world is filled with old sayings about "getting what you pay for..." "never regretting quality" and on and on. The point being that there is more to a transaction than the commodity that changes hands. A dealer that doesn't add value or conduct their business with integrity ultimately will fail - either to get repeat business or to stay in business at all. Also, I've found that anytime the world starts churning out TV shows aimed at "flipping" something for profit, that's probably a good time to get out of that racket.

This has been a good thread, it's interesting to read the perspectives of others.

[wvenfield]

Originally Posted by agtw31

if a dealer has to bad mouth the average joe trying to sell a car
that's a pretty good sign that dealer is a scumbag

"This is a great deal. A dealer would charge you far more for this same car".

Sign of a scumbag?

"We as a dealer offer you a warranty against the drivetrain for X miles, that's something you won't get by buying off the street".

Sign of a scumbag?

[Black Panther]

Ryan...with utmost respect...I have to raise some issues about this post...

I think that there are several expectations that are unrealistic;

Like others have said here above, if Grandma doesnt get what she wanted for the Riv...is she being taken advantage of? I think that anytime someone offers or buys something for less than what its worth or what the owner is asking...is taking an "advantage". Is that unusual or unfair? Hell no...happens all the time...has happened since the dawn of time...and happens everywhere. Can a transaction be unseemly? Yes it can be...in the situation you laid out Grandma was selling the car to build a deck, and never did..that is sad...but has nothing to do with whether the buyer of the Rivi took advantage of Grandma...How about a guy that brings his dads old stuff to the swapmeet and offers a rare intake for $50 when you know its worth $500? How many would offer the amount it is worth? Expecting someone to pay what something is "worth" is unreasonable...

What was Scott expecting for $9000? After all its a 45 year old desirable car...in the writeup you didnt mention that the car was restored...it was a slightly pooped up for resale survivor. I see '65 Rivis for sale all the time that seemed overpriced...$9000 for one like you mentioned doesnt seem that bad to me. Why was Scott expecting fresh window rubbers, perfect unpitted road wheels and to not have to tinker with a 45 year old car? That also seems unreasonable to me....

You mentioned two people's lives were ruined in this one deal...that is a little hyperbolic isnt it? Grandma got 4k...she might have wanted more but agreed to that price...Scott bought a desirable 45 year old car for a reasonable amount of money...that hold on...needed more worth than he expected. If that is "ruination" sign me up!

While I know some of the post was tongue in cheek...some will read this here and miss the point as you have already posted...in a perfect world everyone will be happy and buy and sell stuff for exactly their price...but that hasn't happened yet. All bets are off if Teddie tells grandma that stuff is wrong with her car when it isnt or is generally an asshole to buy the car cheap....but if he offers her an amount of money that she agrees to...well that seems ok....

I think Scott should have come on the Hamb and hit us up before hitting the "buy it now" ...we would have set him straight..

Lastly ...profit is good, just done lie to get it, and flippers/dealers/hobbyists do give back..in different ways...simply by getting that '65 Rivi back on the road generates a ripple effect of goodness.

ps...Teddie might be making payments on his F250 which eliminates the part about the "rich" taking advantage of a poor old lady...

[agtw31]

Originally Posted by wvenfield

"We as a dealer offer you a warranty against the drivetrain for X miles, that's something you won't get by buying off the street".

Sign of a scumbag?

yeah,right.

youre such a good guy you'll sell that warranty for only $1000

more bullshit..

before you throw that crap around,you should make sure nobody knows that scam.

[rustynewyorker]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I'm sure it is. But what's the grand purpose of the job? History tells us that nothing survives if it only takes. Everything has to give back at least a little bit. What does a dealer give back?

As someone who operates as a dealer in old cars -

In 2007 we bought 40 cars that would otherwise all be crushed by now. And that is the truth - one scrap dealer came into this yard in February and was ripping cars to pieces, or picking them up with 12 inches of frozen dirt attached to the bottom in a giant pad, I got to stand by as several decent cars got pressed - some that I remember were a '40 Plymouth coupe, a '60 Pontiac Catalina 2-door hardtop, a Stude Lark convertible that looked showroom new under the hood, and while I was gone a Model T that was up and rolling got plucked because it was by the road and easy to get to... so don't start in on "what do we give back." It was sheer luck the loader operator was good enough to return the money I paid for two cars I knew I couldn't even move until March or April after that group left, left a mess of old oil and crap in the ground, and the owner of the outfit had no intention of going back. I paid for them so the other loader operator wouldn't smash the shit out of them when I wasn't there.

And then when we did go back and actually start getting cars out, every damned dime of profit we made went back into buying cars and hauling them home. I had the dickheads running the place for the old man who owned it calling me a thief and trying to ruin my reputation, and on and on and I still went back until they'd cleaned it right out. If we have it, then it's still out there for a guy to build - if it gets crushed, no one gets so much as a nut or bolt off it.

And I would do it again in a heartbeat, preferrably with more money from the start, because I could easily have taken 150 cars out of there - some because they were desirable, others just plain because they were in pretty decent shape particularly for upstate New York cars that had been sitting in the dirt for 40 or 50 years. There were a few that were a good detailing and cleaning away from being showable, even the laziest whiny bastards who crap their pants over a little rust would have liked them. You know who you are. It still makes me sick to think about the '55 Ford 4-door with the shiny black paint, red wheels, and perfect interior that they smashed the top in on so they could stack another car on top of it while I was buying something else.

[bobwop]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I just don't see where a dealer can find the room for the surplus that I spoke about above. EVERY DAY, the question is asked..."how do you find these cars?" Seriously, not a day goes by without it asked. If you only knew the hours spent to buy five to ten cars per month. Ask my pals, more importantly, ask my significant other. Discovering "deals" and offering something a bit out of the ordinary takes an incredible amount of time. That is certainly a value.

Some of the purchases we make are more of the "rare" kind, rather than "collectible". At times, we sit on them. We enjoy a cake every time one in inventory has a birthday. It adds levity, but doesn't pay the bills. It is a risk we take, but I feel it is a value we add. If we are fortunate enough to get just that one call from a man that had owned one of our odd ducks, he is usually elated to discover a fond memory. We all rejoice.

In addition, we add "surplus" by satisfying the "instant gratification" our customers demand. Almost every car we purchase has an electical deficiency. Perhaps the horn won't blow, or the dome light doesn't work. The majority have a light that won't shine. When they are sold, it is all good. I have seen my right-hand man spend DAYS chasing electrical gremlins. That is adding value.

That said, I realize there are dealers that do find that surplus and they do it out of passion... Unfortunately, however, I believe that there are just too many dealers out there that don't care about or even acknowledge the surplus. I'd bet most of the dealers that posted in this thread would agree with me.

yes, I agree completely. Unfortunately, they survive and even thrive. I see dealers paying what I feel is retail price at auction, then add a HUGE margin. But somebody is paying their price. Why? Without a consumer willing to purchase the product, they could not thrive. I don't get it, but it is not up to us to police the marketplace. Our Nation was built on capitalism, some not so honorable, but we became the greatest Nation on earth due to it.

At the end of the day, I'm old fashioned. I cherish honesty and the good word more than I do profitability or smart posturing.

The flip side is the seller/trader of the car is not always forthright. Especially with late model cars. I understand that it seems OKAY for the dealer to be misled, but in the end, this starts the terrible chain of deception. I know good men that have become scoundrels due to their poor ability to assess and evaluate trade-ins and auction purchases. It is their fault, but is there not some honesty required of the seller? And what about the code of honor on the HAMB? I admit to mistakingly purchasing some cars on here without personally inspecting them. Rather, I took the word of the seller with the HAMB HONOR CODE in mind. My bad. I have nobody to blame but myself, but that doesn't make it right.

Like I said though, this isn't about profitability. It's about whether or not this new world leaves a big enough space for an honest dealer to survive.

I ask this question daily. My lifestyle is not much more than subsistance, but who cares? Maybe I don't even care. I do it for love of the hobby and love of the automobile. It sucks to know that there are dishonest folks living high on the hog, while an honest Joe is questioning the intelligence of carrying on.

But at the end of the day, it is the good people I have befriended that make it worth while. I place a huge surplus in that.

[wvenfield]

Originally Posted by agtw31

yeah,right.

youre such a good guy you'll sell that warranty for only $1000

more bullshit..

before you throw that crap around,you should make sure nobody knows that scam.

I don't sell warranty's. I'm not in the business. Many do offer up warranty's on what they sell and use it as a selling point against the guy in the street.

Again, that makes him a scumbag?

[wingnutz]

I've seen it happen many times but the car world is much smaller than most would think... most snakes get caught (hopefully sooner than later) and their reputation will precede them so others won't get scammed!

Originally Posted by Abomb

Awesome.....

Pov's right too, Bob's okay, real estate agents suck, and oh yeah, insurance guys are just the damn mafia with a business license....anyone left to piss off????

Holy crap... I hit the "Trifecta" for goodness sake... I was a licensed Car salesperson... a licensed Real Estate agent... Licensed Insurance Agent...!

But I didn't get a "Law Degree to become a Lawyer... But I am a Licensed Private Detective...!!!!

I had to edit this post to share one of many positive experience's with Bobwop... he had me look at a car for him which was located close to where I live... the car was an original SS and relatively straight and clean.

So Bob showed up a bit later with his trailer and money and started crawling under the car and was extensively examining the chassis and found a portion of the frame rusted through as well as a couple of other anomalies common for that make, model, and year. These were things I didn't see partially because I was unaware of these issues and that he pointed them out to me.

He told me that he wouldn't trust selling something with those issues and that his customers expect higher standards from him!

I was pleasantly surprised when he said that... and passed on the deal.

[Rex Stallion]

Isn`t what the dealer is doing just Capitalism? Plain and simple? Land of the free, home of the brave. Buy low, mark up,sell, move on. The stories were just that,stories. Pure fiction and conjecture to make a point. Good way to stir up the Lads !