Fear & Loathing The Classic Car Dealer

[povertyflats]

I have a good friend who is a collector car dealer (and you know who it is) who sometimes sits patiently on a car without selling it for 1-2 years or longer. It is an investment, a hobby, and a business. Most folks want cash right now. Just watch my favorite show "Pawn Stars" and see what they do on a daily basis.

[Houston Rodder]

I agreed with you right up until pawn stars...that show sucks.

[VinnieCap]

Originally Posted by Hnstray

Did you actually read what you are writing here????? If you didn't, you should. If you did and don't see the glaring gap in logic, then you need a course in 'critical thinking'.

"only offered you the lowball wholesale price" did he? so you sold your car privately! Well, Sunshine, at that point you just became a "dealer" or "retailer" at the very least. You "earned" the difference between the wholesale value and the retail value by doing the marketing yourself.

Answer this question. If some guy you didn't know came to you with an item of significant value (could be a car, boat, piano) and said "I need to sell this item....would you give me as much as you THINK you MIGHT get for it and then try to sell to get your money back? I mean, I really need the favor" ......"oh, and by the way, you'll have to absorb all the expenses associated with trying to sell it......sooooo, you might lose money...he he he ......but hey, you'll be a really Great Guy if you do that for me"......

Any takers in the audience????......... Didn't think so.

You, and people who think like you, should try the old adage of "put the shoe on the other foot and see if it fits".........I don't know if it's gross ignorance or arrogance or a combination of the two, but the expectations of what someone else "owes" you is simply unbelievable!

Ray

Ray,
It's clear from your angry response that you were a car dealer for many years. I guess I hit a nerve or the truth hurts, but the jist of my post was that I DID NOT FEEL THAT A DEALER WOULD BENEFIT ME in any way. I sold a single possession of mine, a car, I don’t think that would make me a dealer in any way. As for being a retailer I don’t think I am that either from the sale of one car. I probably didn't get retail for it and I certainly didn't turn a profit... it was just time to move on for me. I didn't have to sell, it was a choice.

See what you miss is I understood they needed to make money (and I don't feel they or anyone owes me something, that obviously comes from your bitterness from years of running your business)… I was just shopping dealers for a FAIR trade; understanding I would not get as much as I may be able to sell it privately (but for ease of sale)… but I could not even get them to be fair. So I just skipped using them.

So in the end I was addressing the issue of what service do they provide and I clearly stated that TO ME, they do not provide a needed service.

This is my opinion, take it or leave it.

When a dealer says to you and I quote… “I assure you I will pay you wholesale and you will pay retail” it’s not exactly welcoming to do business with that person. If I were the dealer I would have said let’s see what we can do and run some numbers and tried to be as FAIR as possible.

[frank spittle]

I have been reading this thread with great interest. Ryan, I was appalled at your story but after reading all the posts I was relieved there were about as many HAMBers who disagreed with you as agreed with you. Heck, after reading your responses I am beginning to believe you don't entirely agree with you.

The reason I was appalled is because I am a Classic Car dealer. Actually, a semi-retired CCD. I am still passionate about hot rods 51 years after getting my drivers license. My first car was a '51 Chevy HT with dual carbs and a split exhaust manifold with dual exhaust. The year was 1961. My avatar is a '33 Essex Terraplane I saw for the first time that year. When I graduated in '62 I chose not to go to college so I could join the Hot Rod culture and go to the drag races. The Super Stockers were exciting to watch and I dreamed of having one of those engines in an earlier body. By 1968 when I bought that Essex I had owned over a dozen cars. I was always finding something for sale I wanted more so I would sell what I had to buy it. Yes, I made a profit on most cars I sold but because the interest was growing in leaps and bounds I would have to pay more for what I purchased than what it was offered to me months earlier. The Essex needed a makeover and I finished it a year later, in 1969, the year I married my wife. I knew she was the right one to put up with my shenanagans.

In 1973 with a 3 year old son and a pregnant wife I made the foolish decision to try and make a living doing what I had loved for over a decade. There were few CCDs. Most flippers were back yarders like I had been. There were not many shows either....or collector car auctions....Hudson & Marshall, Kruse and B-J were it. Since then I have been a one man business (with the help of my wife) doing the buying, selling, cleanup, light mechanics, transportation, bookwork etc. I have enjoyed it all. It is my passion.

I have seen many Teddies come and go. Most did not know the cars or care anything about learning about them. They were in it strickly for the money doing anything it took to make as much as they could. But I have also made lifelong friends with other passionate CCDs and customers. It is still a great business to be in but it is tough. I have also seen many ethical dealers close up because they would not spend the numerous hours each week it takes. I have always tried to treat customers fairly and for the most part have succedded. But as the saying goes...you can't please everybody. I resolve the situation. I have never had a complaint filed with the DMV. I hope those reading this who has purchased a car from me feel like you got treated fairly. If not contact me instead of bashing me here.

What I ask for a car has nothing to do with how much I paid for it. I go by how much I will have to pay for an exact replacement. If I buy a car under market I will make a higher profit. But sometimes I buy a car I really like and hope I can find a buyer who likes it more. It is part of the passion. And, I never make an offer until I get an asking price. If it is fair I pay for it. If not, I make an offer the seller can use to shop it to others. I don't care. There are always more cars for sale than I can buy.

Ryan, I give back by taking calls from people who don't know the market. That comes with having my number in the phone book for 38 years. I will try to share with them the knowledge I have gained over the last 50 years at no cost as long as I don't have to leave my business. And I don't try to steer them my way. It is not right to take a sale away from someone else. But some pass on the car they called about and will come look at what I have.

I am 67 now and don't work the long hours anymore. I sold the Essex 2 years ago after owning it for 41 years. But I will keep on buying and selling as long as my health holds out because I know my passion will.

[skidmarks]

anyone else recall the used car lot in american graffiti ? the explanations the dealers have given just make me picture that scene of the movie.

i love the way the big dealers try and make themselves look better then the little mom and pop lots by having "quality" car only, but they whole sale the junk trade in to 1 of 2 places- a junkyard or a mom and pop lot. so in reality they just use the little lots in 2 ways . yes, the dealers response to the post do make me laugh so i find cheap entertainment in them

[Gman0046]

The thought of buying a car from a dealer never entered my mind. Everything i've, bought, sold or traded for came or went to private individuals. I have seen several dealers participating on eBay with less then excellent feedback ratings. I've always thought cars from dealers were being sold for more then there worth.

[laloszephyr]

Maybe a bit off subject, maybe not.ive been a truck driver in th LA area for 15 plus years and ive always found interesting things in and around the LA area.funny but after reading and replying to this post I stumbled across these two small wherehouses in hunting park in a small alley. They had two 32 three windows a roadster and a few other cars all ranging from converts to woodies. From what I was told an seen the guys work on the cars full time restoring these cars back to there original state.they have restored over 100 cars I was told. Yes most get sold but alot are the personal collection of nick Alexander of the LA dealership who sells BMW cars. It was good to hear those guys took pride in restoring these beautiful pieces of art.they took the time to show me books just published on how to restore and gave me a few cards of people who might be able to help me with my 38zephyr.sure it takes money, time and effort to make this happen but I'm glad to see that he's got people working supporting their families and restoring these cars for people to see and enjoy.took a few pics from the catalog they gave me.all in all alot of good points were made some good some bad but that's how it goes in this lifestyle we all love.

[Cut55]

Originally Posted by Houston Rodder

I agreed with you right up until pawn stars...that show sucks.

Right up there with the pickers show. Pure suckage. The History Channel has really lost its way.

[TINGLER]

Originally Posted by Houston Rodder

I agreed with you right up until pawn stars...that show sucks.

I thought that too until I noticed those Pawn Stars guys weren't LYING to the people they were buying from. They'd tell them straight up that they couldn't buy for xxx amount because they needed to make a profit. I think most people walk away from that place satisfied.

...I don't think the money making is the problem....it's the LYING in order to make a buck that isn't right.

Ryan's "Teddie" lies to everyone. That is wrong no matter how much money is involved.

That was a good read Ryan. I felt I wrote it myself.

[The37Kid]

If cars can be National Treasurers, then some dealers have seen to it that they stay in their counrty of origin, to me that is a good thing. I've never had the funds to buy a collector car from a dealer, but they do get vehicles out and on the market again, and not every car gets flipped in 2-3 weeks.

Originally Posted by Ryan

I'm sure it is. But what's the grand purpose of the job? History tells us that nothing survives if it only takes. Everything has to give back at least a little bit. What does a dealer give back?

[Barn Find T]

"The Classic Car Dealer ruined two lives in the stroke of a deal."

This journal entry is dramatic.

Poor Martha, Poor Scott.....
Blame it on the car Dealer!

The truth is they all have a choice.

I'm not a dealer.

This happens in all aspects of business, retail, tree trimmers, jewelry, auto, roofers, oil, government, etc.

Is there a solution here...
Or are you just bitching?

TJJ on iPhone

[billsill45]

Originally Posted by 1971BB427

Unfortunately the people who buy from a classic car dealer are also the people who are easiest to be fooled. They know very little about working on, or building a ride, so they aren't able to spot things that a seasoned veteran would.
Great article Ryan, and I hope those who would be taken by one of the bad dealers read it and learn. If you don't know, then take a friend with you who does know!

1971BB427 has raised a significant point regarding the role of Classic Car Dealers that has been ignored by many of the people posting on this thread. Most HAMBers and those of us who religiously read Hemmings, Old Cars Weekly and any of the "dirty hands" car magazines are usually not the typical clientele of the CCD. CDD's buyer wants a collector or classic car but probably does not have the time, knowledge or inclination to chase all over the country in pursuit of his dream ride. That buyer is more comfortable with a dealer ... he can consider a number of cars in inventory that may not be common in his area, has a higher confidence level in the condition of the vehicle (warranted or not), has financing and possibly service options, and has a place to sell it back or trade when he's tired of it.

Legitimate Classic Car Dealers who survive do so for a reason: They offer vehicles, convenience and perceived value that their customers are willing to pay for. Ultimately, market forces will level out the prices.

[crosleykook]

Originally Posted by TINGLER

...I don't think the money making is the problem....it's the LYING in order to make a buck that isn't right.

That's exactly it. There's a difference between being a capitalist and being a crook - and that difference is that if you lie when you're selling something, you're a crook.

It all goes back to my rule of thumb: Anything you've got to lie about to do ain't worth doing.

[Sheep Dip]

Originally Posted by arkiehotrods

First of all, when one wants to create a hypothetical situation, as Ryan has done here, it's easy to make the "facts" in the story elicit sympathy from the readers. Cases in point, the fact that the poor little old lady never got to build her patio and Scott started abusing drugs have absolutely nothing to do with anything. They were thrown in to make us feel bad for those who were "ripped off." Teddie the car dealer didn't "ruin" anyone's life (geez, talk about hyperbole!). He did nothing but buy and then sell an old car.

Martha had an idea of what the car was worth. She chose to take 53% of what she thought the car was worth. Her choice. She could have waited until someone else came along and offered more. She chose not to. So much for a straw man set up to fall easily.

Same thing with Scott. He could have (should have) inspected the car or paid a competent inspector to look it over for him. If money was tight, it would have been money well-spent. If there were flaws in the old Riv, well, welcome to the world of antique cars. If he wanted new with a warranty, he should have bought new with a warranty. If he was turning to drug abuse because of his disappointment in the Riviera, for crying out loud, then he had serious issues long before he even thought about buying an old car. And I'm sure his divorce was about a lot more than his feeling sorry for himself over getting taken by Teddie. Again, straw men of one's own choosing are easy to knock down.

Now for a true story as it relates to Martha: I once had my '54 DeSoto listed on several internet sites (before I ever discovered the best one, namely, the HAMB!). I received a call from a man who claimed to be a classic car dealer in Kansas City. Without ever seeing the car or asking me any questions about it, he offered me a third of what I was asking. I told him that for the condition it was in, according to the Old Cars Price Guide, it was worth what I was asking. He then ridiculed the OCPG and asked me if I knew what cars were really worth "in today's market."

I said this DeSoto is worth what I'm asking, it's a great driving car and I won't take much less. He got very angry, cussed me out, and hung up. I ended up selling the car to a friend for asking price (he knew the car) and he has been very happy with it. In fact, I've tried to buy it back several times, to no avail.

Now, the difference between me and "Martha?" I decided to stick to my price and wait. It paid off. Most people with any brains at all will wait and see what other offers come along.

Another true story: I have a good friend who deals in vintage stringed instruments, mainly guitars and mandolins. He is well-known among collectors around the country and has sold instruments to most well-known musicians and a lot of actors as well. A farmer once brought in a very rare 1923 Gibson "Lloyd Loar" F5 mandolin in amazingly great shape. He had inherited it and wanted to sell it, as he had no interest in it. My friend carefully looked over the instrument and said, "The mandolin is very rare and in excellent condition. It is worth $X and that is what I would ask for it in my store. However, I am a dealer, and I am in this to make a profit plus cover my overhead, etc, so I would be willing to offer $Y for it (about 2/3 of $X). You could probably get $X for it if you sold it yourself, but I'm willing to pay $Y for it."

The owner of the mandolin sold it to my friend and was satisfied, as he was told the retail value (honestly) and what my dealer friend would offer.

And both were satisfied with the transaction.

One more true story, this time as it relates to "Scott" in Ryan's story: I have bought one vehicle from a classic car dealer (my '47 Ford coupe). It was for sale on the internet for a very good price. I called and asked a bunch of questions. Every question was answered thoroughly and even beyond what I had asked. I agreed to buy for full purchase price, as it was thousands below what most in that condition were selling for elsewhere. The dealer told me that every other person who had inquired about the car had offered much less. I said, "They're nuts. If it's anything like it looks in the pictures and the way you describe it, it's well worth the full asking price."

The car arrived right on time and upon closer inspection, the car was better than they told me it was. I got under it and carefully looked at everything and was amazed at how clean and well-done it was.

I normally would not recommend buying a car sight unseen over the internet, but this particular dealer has been around for a long, long time and they wouldn't still be in business if they were in the business of ripping off customers.

It's easy to paint a picture, especially when one is crafting a make-believe story, that there are no good classic car dealers, or that they have no purpose in today's world.

Reality is, there are plenty of really good classic car dealers out there. They perform a valuable service for many people. And yes,there are shysters as well. Determining which is which is pretty easy to discern. Just ask a few questions and see if the ol' BS meter doesn't go off!

One will be able to tell quickly whether it's a passion or a paycheck.

Me? I buy high and sell low; it's the secret of my success!

My f*#kin point exactly...well stated

[Jack Thomas]

Just another used car lot with a "Classy" name.

[Dan Hay]

If this thread was started by someone else, it would've been closed by now.

Back to Hot Rods.

[Ryan]

Yeah, probably... But it's my website... The double standard doesn't bother me, so you are stuck with it.

[slammed]

Bottom line, its taking advantage of your fellow man. No 'skill' only deception, like Poker. Do not try to sell me otherwise.

[Lone Star Mopar]

Originally Posted by Dan Hay

If this thread was started by someone else, it would've been closed by now.

Back to Hot Rods.

Amen to that..

[buford36]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Yeah, probably... But it's my website... The double standard doesn't bother me, so you are stuck with it.

As a retired Air Force Chief, I like your attitude !