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Old 02-02-2011, 11:32 AM   #1
IRON MAIDEN
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Default Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

After much thought, I really don't want to regret not using the Jag rear in my truck. I know myself, and I would have wondered how much better the ride would have been if I just did it. Only reason was the gear ratio and the cost to change it. But, I'm so far off from being done with the build, I have plenty of time to figure it out. So my 46' K3, the "Harvester of Sorrow", is gonna roll on a complete Series III Jaguar XJ6 Independant Suspension. Front and Rear. I'm rubber mounting the front and rear the same way Jag did it. The rear will be left in the Jag cage so it can be rubber mounted. The look of the uncaged Jag rears are too sweet, but with the long bed, I'm going for function over form on this. It will end up looking good when it's all painted and rebuilt so who cares. It will be hidden under that long azz bed anyway. So I got it home, hosed it down, and got it out of my truck with the hoist. Mounted the wheels and just rolled it under my truck. I'm pretty happy with how it's sitting. I need to get back over to get the rubber mounts off the Jag so I can see if it's just gonna bolt right in. It sure looks like it. If anything, the angles of the notch of the frame might need to be adjusted so the rubber mounts are sitting proper. but, like the front suspension, the mounts line up right under the rails ; )
The radius arms are another story. I have a couple build threads going on other sites but wanted to get at least this going on Hamb so I can get advice from the members who have knowledge on these setups. I'm gonna need help.







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Old 02-02-2011, 11:33 AM   #2
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester





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Old 02-02-2011, 12:07 PM   #4
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I just pulled one yesterday out of a 78 XJ6L and was thinking the same on my 50 F-1. I am going to see how well yours goes. My Jag rear needs rotors and all that crap so I will see if it will be worth it.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:22 PM   #5
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by k-member View Post
I just pulled one yesterday out of a 78 XJ6L and was thinking the same on my 50 F-1. I am going to see how well yours goes. My Jag rear needs rotors and all that crap so I will see if it will be worth it.
Not long back I found them at Rock Auto, cheap!

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Old 02-02-2011, 02:01 PM   #7
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

So many questions to sort out still. once I get the rubber mounts, today, i will slap em' in and drop the frame onto the cage and see how it fits. I need to figure out the radius arm mounts as well. The cup deal that is on the underside of the unibody that the front rubber bushing mounts on. Not sure if I will need to fab them or if they come off the Jag???
Do I set the cage level?
I guess Jag used a 0 degree pinion angle on the diff.
Am I supposed to do the same? My 327 was gonna be 3-5 degrees.
I am pretty sure also that the radius arms need to be level as well. That would make those mounts have to hang pretty far off the bottom of the frame. I have some ideas on how I would do it but it might be strange having those arms that low. I just hope they are not visible when the bed and fenders are on.
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Old 02-02-2011, 06:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Looks great man. I have a 48 kb1 that I want to put 04 GTO rear under. I will be watching how yours comes along
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Old 02-02-2011, 06:27 PM   #9
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I don't know what your ride height is going to be but it sure looks like that will be a snap to install with the cage on it!
I have an 89 (the one that everyone says is ugly) and it will go under a fendered car as easy as a solid axle.
I will check back on your install
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:40 PM   #10
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Hey there. Looks like that will be easy to fit in. Regarding the raduis arms, I would set the cage/diff (depending if you strip the cage) up where you need it to be and build a mounting on the bottom of the frame to meet the factory arm using the oringinal bushings.
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

The easiest way to set up the radius arms would be to measure the position of the mounting points on the Jag now that you have the diff out. The positioning is more important tan a lot of people will tell you , check on the Jag forums about axle tramp.
I think that the bottom plate of the diff is supposed to be level. I've got a full weight XJ6 I can check on if required. This angle is more important than pinion angle and will affect the way the car launches and stops.

Keep your eyes open for an older Jag to get a lower ratio diff from, they are still out there cheap.
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:36 AM   #12
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by toddc View Post
The easiest way to set up the radius arms would be to measure the position of the mounting points on the Jag now that you have the diff out. The positioning is more important tan a lot of people will tell you , check on the Jag forums about axle tramp.
I think that the bottom plate of the diff is supposed to be level. I've got a full weight XJ6 I can check on if required. This angle is more important than pinion angle and will affect the way the car launches and stops.

Keep your eyes open for an older Jag to get a lower ratio diff from, they are still out there cheap.

Thanks. If you can check it out, it sure would be great. I got ahead of myself and dropped it before taking pics of it fully installed. Pics would help if you can post some.

The radius arm front rubber mounts...... the nub on the frame that the rubber bushing seats on....... is it removable? or will I need to fab that part? The rear/cage seems to sit way up in the Jag so the arms when level just reach out to the bottom of the Jag frame. Obviously going to be different on my IH frame. As it sits with no weight on the front or rear of my chassis, if it gets mounted in the position shown above..... it will sit just about right. When I set up the front, I have the frame on stands at a degree or two of rake. dropping it on the Jag cage..... it's sitting just how I had it. So I think it will sit perfect. but sometimes my thinking gets me in trouble ; )
If mounted as shown, once I level those arms they are gonna sit aweful low and look funny off the bottom of the rails. i guess they will ride the same distance off the ground as on the Jag though????
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:47 AM   #13
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Not to hijack but does anyone know if a Jag rear end will stand up to a stock 472 Cad engine? My son has a 47 IHC KB3 w/volare front end.
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

You can buy that part that the arms fit over from one of the Jag parts houses, like XK's Unlimited...
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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You can buy that part that the arms fit over from one of the Jag parts houses, like XK's Unlimited...
I forgot to look at them on my Jag. I stopped over real quick to grab the rubber mounts and was rushed to get to work. I needed to grab the bump stops as well and didn't have time. The Jag will still be sitting waiting for me so no big deal.
Can I remove them from the Jag or are they just part of the frame? I would hate to buy them if they can just be removed from my parts car.
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Not to hijack but does anyone know if a Jag rear end will stand up to a stock 472 Cad engine? My son has a 47 IHC KB3 w/volare front end.
It's a Dana 44 so I'm not sure why it wouldn't. It's what they use in most of the Cobra's so I would assume it would either hold up or can be made to. How about some pics of your sons KB3??? Mine is a 46' K3, same thing pretty much. How does the Volare front ride?
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

the lower control arm should be set level. jags had different control arm mount that set the pinion angle.

the locating arms should be parallel with the ground. to clean up the look you could make them longer and mount with heim joints in line with the lower control arm mount.

what i did for locating arms
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...4337&showall=1
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:37 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester








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Old 02-03-2011, 12:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester



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Old 02-03-2011, 12:44 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Do the lower control arms sit level on the Jag? I tried to weight the back down with no luck. Wouldn't I want the suspension in it's static position, then level the radius arms? If I were to set them as it sits, as soon as the truck settles down to its ride height, it would change the angle of the arms.
This might not be as easy as I thought ; )
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:46 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
It's a Dana 44 so I'm not sure why it wouldn't. It's what they use in most of the Cobra's so I would assume it would either hold up or can be made to. How about some pics of your sons KB3??? Mine is a 46' K3, same thing pretty much. How does the Volare front ride?
This is all I have here on this computer. It rides, stops, & handles just fine with the Volare front end + you can adjust the torsion bars for the ride height.
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:54 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
Do the lower control arms sit level on the Jag? I tried to weight the back down with no luck. Wouldn't I want the suspension in it's static position, then level the radius arms? If I were to set them as it sits, as soon as the truck settles down to its ride height, it would change the angle of the arms.
This might not be as easy as I thought ; )
yes both arms sit level on the jag


with an irs when you put weight on it you need to roll the truck front and back so it will settle
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by Slag Kustom View Post
the lower control arm should be set level. jags had different control arm mount that set the pinion angle.

the locating arms should be parallel with the ground. to clean up the look you could make them longer and mount with heim joints in line with the lower control arm mount.

what i did for locating arms
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...4337&showall=1

I'm rubber mounting the cage so I need to use the factory arms rubber mounted as well.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
I'm rubber mounting the cage so I need to use the factory arms rubber mounted as well.
with it mounted in line with lower control arm it can be solid cause it swings at same angle
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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This is all I have here on this computer. It rides, stops, & handles just fine with the Volare front end + you can adjust the torsion bars for the ride height.
What rear does he have in there now? Truck looks nice.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:11 PM   #26
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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with it mounted in line with lower control arm it can be solid cause it swings at same angle

Man....... this is getting confusing. The more I research, the more confused I get. I have read too many threads on this. Most have said that if it is rubber mounted in the cage, then the stock radius arms need to be used with their rubber mounts as well. This part of my build is getting stressful!
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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What rear does he have in there now? Truck looks nice.
It has a wasted Dodge 1/2 ton pickup rear end in it now. Couldn't stand up to the 472. We have the engine out of it and are re doing the motor mounts and installing air. Will be slow going as his money is tight. That's why the Jag rear end swap you are doing is of interest to us.
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:06 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
Man....... this is getting confusing. The more I research, the more confused I get. I have read too many threads on this. Most have said that if it is rubber mounted in the cage, then the stock radius arms need to be used with their rubber mounts as well. This part of my build is getting stressful!
With the cage rubber mounted you can use either type of radius arm. The long style that go to a pivot in line with the lower inner pivot will work better if setup correctly. But the stock arms in the stock location will work very well too, and be much harder to mess up.
If you solid mount the diff, then it will need the longer style of arm.

With the rubber mounts taken off the parts car, I would drill some holes in some bits of wood and then bolt them in place where the mounts came from. Then I would build a bracket off that to accurately locate the cones on the floor where the radius arms mount. Then you can transfer that whole assy to your truck to know exactly where the mounts need to be, regardless of ride height.

The cones that the arms mount to on the Jag are removable, but you'll need a gas axe But hey, it's just a parts car so you might as well lay into it. Also, if you haven't yet popped the rubbers off the car, leave the bolt loosely in the rubber mount while you are levering the rubber off - they really fly when the taper comes apart!

If you want to bring the ride height down you could take off 2 of the springs for a while.
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:22 AM   #29
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by toddc View Post
Keep your eyes open for an older Jag to get a lower ratio diff from, they are still out there cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
It's a Dana 44

Rather than using an old used and abused gear set I'd get a new one. They're not that bad.
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:11 AM   #30
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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With the rubber mounts taken off the parts car, I would drill some holes in some bits of wood and then bolt them in place where the mounts came from. Then I would build a bracket off that to accurately locate the cones on the floor where the radius arms mount. Then you can transfer that whole assy to your truck to know exactly where the mounts need to be, regardless of ride height.

Also, if you haven't yet popped the rubbers off the car, leave the bolt loosely in the rubber mount while you are levering the rubber off - they really fly when the taper comes apart!

Sorry. Lost me there.
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:13 AM   #31
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Rather than using an old used and abused gear set I'd get a new one. They're not that bad.
Not that bad as in price? I was quoted $380 for a used set!
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:36 AM   #32
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

NO shortage of decent priced ring and pinion sets...
http://completeoffroad.com

...your browser is your friend...
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:02 PM   #33
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I will be watching your progress closely. I am doing ft and rear in a 56 f100. I am going to use the jag mounting as well. I still can't believe how good a shape the xj6 you took those out of is in.

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Old 02-04-2011, 12:12 PM   #34
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Do your homework on replacing the ring and pinion. It is close to a 44 but actually a Salsbury. Jag ring gear has 1/2" holes, different than a 44. In my mind best solution is to use a 44 carrier and ring and pinion, you need a different carrier if you go lower than around 3:73. Jag also uses differnt bearings so don't buy a 44 install kit. Also there may be a different spline count on the pinion for the yoke, although I had a friend tell me he did not think so. In most Jags I have read the stub axles are different spline (19?) than most 44 axles. I would recomend taking it apart before you order to be sure of the sline count. That is what I am going to do anyway.

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Old 02-04-2011, 02:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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NO shortage of decent priced ring and pinion sets...
http://completeoffroad.com

...your browser is your friend...
Don't think I havn't been searching. It's not a regular D44.
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Old 02-04-2011, 04:38 PM   #36
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Not that bad as in price? I was quoted $380 for a used set!
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Don't think I havn't been searching. It's not a regular D44.
Nope it's actually Spicer's earlier style called a Salisbury. But you can use Dana 44 gears. You have choices, use the later style carrier or sleeved or shouldered bolts, the holes in the Salisbury carrier are 7/16" and the holes on the Dana 44 ring gears are 3/8". Easy enough. Gear sets are $200-250. I've also heard of taking the holes on the gear to 7/16"
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Last edited by zman; 02-04-2011 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:06 PM   #37
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Nope it's actually Spicer's earlier style called a Salisbury. But you can use Dana 44 gears. You have choices, use the later style carrier or sleeved or shouldered bolts, the holes in the Salisbury carrier are 7/16" and the holes on the Dana 44 ring gears are 3/8". Easy enough. Gear sets are $200-250. I've also heard of taking the holes on the gear to 7/16"
There are some other differences as well. Believe the pinion bearing is different too. I've never had the pleasure of fooling with a differencial other than a fluid changes. Nor do I want to pay a shop to swap them for me. I am hoping I can find a reasonable source for the proper Jag gear setup and or an adapter kit to make the swap easy. I did find this site. I'm gonna email them and see what response I get.

http://www.precisiongear.com/dana44kit.htm
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:11 PM   #38
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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There are some other differences as well. Believe the pinion bearing is different too. I've never had the pleasure of fooling with a differencial other than a fluid changes. Nor do I want to pay a shop to swap them for me. I am hoping I can find a reasonable source for the proper Jag gear setup and or an adapter kit to make the swap easy. I did find this site. I'm gonna email them and see what response I get.

http://www.precisiongear.com/dana44kit.htm

You're really making this out to be harder than it is. The bearings are cake. Most all are chevy part numbers as are the u-joints.
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Old 02-04-2011, 07:38 PM   #39
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

It's simply because I've never done it myself, seen it done, or been able to find a thread on it online. I've found plenty that talk about it, but none that actually go through the procedure. But my decision to use the Jag rear was knowing I have time to figure it out. If I already knew how to do it and where to get the parts, I still would wait as I have no need for it at this point.
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:24 PM   #40
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Don't think I havn't been searching. It's not a regular D44.
Sorry, just going off of the earlier post....

Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN
It's a Dana 44 so

...and since I have a swap planned I am trying to glean as much info as possible to shorten my learning curve.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:57 PM   #41
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Lots of good info, we have a 46 international, and can get jag front and rear for $ 100 each, just waiting for it to warm up a bit,to make a trip to a bone yard. We put a jag rear ..in my son's 22 dodge lakester and used the CCR T bucket plans. The rear hairpins are about 4 ft long C to C and canted to brackets along side the frame we cut up the jag rear arms to use the rubber and steel sleeve, we might do the hairpins on th truck. With a long arm you don't get bump push, 'the old Xke racers didn't like the rubber mounted rear ends, the rear end tended to push you around the corners.
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:05 PM   #42
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

cage to frame mount, I dug out the CCR plans and the XKE cage mounts parallel to the T frame, The XJ has a slight angle it looks to be mabe 5 degrees. I'll check it tomorrow. of course that depends on your frame rake angle and engine mounting angle
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Old 02-05-2011, 12:25 AM   #43
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Sorry. Lost me there.
I'll try again. Make up some brackets that bolt to the parts car where the rubber mounts fit the rails, and continue these brackets down to where the radius arms mount.
When you have holes drilled in your truck chassis to mount the rubbers you can then use the brackets to position the mounts for the radius arms in exactly the right spot.

Also, grab the tailshaft and handbrake cable from the parts car too
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Old 02-05-2011, 12:35 AM   #44
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

This is just some general advise on Jag rear ends. Check the cage for cracks before spending too much time on one. This crack was in one of mine. There were more cracks on the front face too.
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:15 AM   #45
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Thanks Toddc. I will look the cage over. My parts car is in a tow yard so it's a bit hard to fab anything there. I will however take the rubber mounts back over there and measure their location in relation to the front arm mounts. With the cage mounting in a different frame set at a different rake, I'm sure it's gonna be a little different. I'm gonna read up more on the arms and maybe using a different setup if it's possible. Not too worried right now. I did put the bed back on and will try to get the rear centered in the fenders how I want it. Once I have the frame marked for the position of the rear, I will pull the bed back off and start working on the mounts.
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:35 AM   #46
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I forgot to ask about this. When I was pulling the Jag IRS out of the donor car, something I've never seen before happened. When I removed the driveline from the differencial, the flange that is, fluid drained out. There was maybe a cup or so of fluid that drained out and that's the end of it. It's not leaking as it sits under my truck. Is this normal? What would cause it if it's not normal? Doesn't appear that it has been leaking yet the space between the flange and where it mounts was full of fluid?????
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:10 PM   #47
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I'm cage mounting the rear with the rubber mounts. The issues I'm having are just not knowing or understanding how to set the rear up. I am a visual guy and seeing pictures help me understand what I am reading. I have had several people try to explain how the radius arms should be mounted. I'm not grasping it so pictures are needed to tie it all together.
Beyond my questions of the radius arms are many other questions. Let's say my frame is sitting at the rake I want it at. I position the Jag cage/IRS up under the frame in the position it needs to be in. Do I set the cage to mount level? Where on the cage do I place my level? On the tom above the pumpkin? Underneath the pumpkin?
By leveling the cage, does that also set the pinion at 0 degrees? Or do I angle the cage 3-5 degrees to set my pinion? Will that effect the suspension?
Another question is again about the radius arms. As it sits, not enough weight is on the rear to drop the suspension into the neutral position. The lower control arms are angled down. Are they supposed to be level with the ground like on the front Jag suspension? Do I need to get them in this position to figure out the radius arm mounting?
Too many questions.......
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Old 02-06-2011, 01:59 PM   #48
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

The jag IRS in my project is mounted solid. When I started to locate the radius rods I removed one spring on both sides and It sat near level which is what I want. used 47 ford radius rods and made a housing at the rear for the original jag rubber mount and rod ends at the front. When the springs went back on the radius rods now are at an angle but expect it to level out when finished and loaded. I will adjust the front rod ends at that time. The original rear Jag mounts leave some movement for vertical spring action.
My front and rear came from an XJS12 so the springs at least the front are quite stiff. With the gas tank going behind the rear diff my weight should work out better,"I hope"
Interesting thing,today I jacked up the front right hand under the lower control arm and the right rear wheel started coming off the ground,very little flex in my frame.
I did not find parts costs to out of line for the brakes and discs.
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Old 02-06-2011, 02:43 PM   #49
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I have to admit that it has been years since I was involved with a Jag install, but I can just about guarentee that you want to mount the rear so that the pinion is on the same angle as your trans output. That's just basic stuff, otherwise you could end up with some driveline vibration. As far as where the arms should be, level is a good bet, or just slightly angled down. To get there, I would pull the coil overs out, make some very quick replacements that would hold the arms at level, slide the whole thing under the truck with the tires and wheels you will be using on it, bring the frame down to where you want your ride hieght to be, check for center in the wheel wells, then finally set the pinion angle to match the trans, mount. Most Jag suspended vehicles I have looked at over the years have had the radius rods mounted one of two locations, Either out to the frame rails, or under the rails towards the center of the car. If possible, I would do the latter and make the mounts the same distance apart as the hinge points for the lower arms on the rear end. I have seen both done, but the latter would be more "geometrically correct". The rear end relies on having the realitively stiff lower arms to keep the alignment straight, the radius rods are there to help keep fore to aft movement to a minimum.
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Old 02-06-2011, 09:13 PM   #50
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I forgot to ask about this. When I was pulling the Jag IRS out of the donor car, something I've never seen before happened. When I removed the driveline from the differencial, the flange that is, fluid drained out. There was maybe a cup or so of fluid that drained out and that's the end of it. It's not leaking as it sits under my truck. Is this normal? What would cause it if it's not normal? Doesn't appear that it has been leaking yet the space between the flange and where it mounts was full of fluid?????

That will be diff oil that has leaked down the splines of the pinion. Its pretty common. When you do your final assembly, put a smear of silicone between the flanges, top up the oil level, and you'll never have a problem with it.
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Old 02-06-2011, 09:36 PM   #51
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I'm cage mounting the rear with the rubber mounts. The issues I'm having are just not knowing or understanding how to set the rear up. I am a visual guy and seeing pictures help me understand what I am reading. I have had several people try to explain how the radius arms should be mounted. I'm not grasping it so pictures are needed to tie it all together.


The loose strap in the pic above needs to be bolted to the chassis at its loose end. It stops the radius arm from falling on the ground when the rubber mount fails - and they do fail! Imagine what would happen if the radius arm hit the ground at speed....

Have a look at these links when you have some time, there is some good relevant info.
http://www.ozrodders.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=2&t=17968
http://www.ozrodders.com/forum/viewt...7919&start=210


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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
Beyond my questions of the radius arms are many other questions. Let's say my frame is sitting at the rake I want it at. I position the Jag cage/IRS up under the frame in the position it needs to be in. Do I set the cage to mount level? Where on the cage do I place my level? On the top above the pumpkin? Underneath the pumpkin?
By leveling the cage, does that also set the pinion at 0 degrees? Or do I angle the cage 3-5 degrees to set my pinion? Will that effect the suspension?
I have to go to where my XJ6 is at today, I'll let you know what angle. The angle of the suspension is more important than the pinion angle. Set the suspension at the right angle and then adjust the angle of the motor and box to match the pinion angle - not vice versa.
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Another question is again about the radius arms. As it sits, not enough weight is on the rear to drop the suspension into the neutral position. The lower control arms are angled down. Are they supposed to be level with the ground like on the front Jag suspension? Do I need to get them in this position to figure out the radius arm mounting?
Too many questions.......
The upper control arms ( that is - the half shafts ) need to be level at normal ride height. That is, at normal ride height, you should be able to draw a straight line through all the universal joints. The lower arms will angle down towards the outside.


Leave the radius arms until last, as the other measurements are more important.

Thanks to the people I borrowed the images from too
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Old 02-06-2011, 10:51 PM   #52
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Ok, I checked out my stock standard XJ6 series 3.

On the base of the suspension there are 8 bolts that go through the bottom plate. I measured off these bolts because the bottom plates are always bent.

My spirit level rested firmly on the forward most bolt, and required a 5mm spacer under the rear most bolt to make it level.
Therefore, the back of the suspension cage is slightly higher off the ground than the front with the car empty (no passengers) and parked on level concrete.

Let me know if you need more info.
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:08 AM   #53
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Ok, I checked out my stock standard XJ6 series 3.

On the base of the suspension there are 8 bolts that go through the bottom plate. I measured off these bolts because the bottom plates are always bent.

My spirit level rested firmly on the forward most bolt, and required a 5mm spacer under the rear most bolt to make it level.
Therefore, the back of the suspension cage is slightly higher off the ground than the front with the car empty (no passengers) and parked on level concrete.

Let me know if you need more info.

Thanks. Do you know if the bottom plate is parallel with the top of the cage? That would sure make it easier to adjust for mounting if I can put my angle finder or level on top of the cage.
I guess I should pull the coilovers out of the rear and rig something up that rigidly locks the suspension in the "Half-shafts in a straight line" position. Kind of think I should go ahead and pull the front coils out as well and level the lower control arms. That way both the front and rear suspensions are in their loaded riding positions.
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:17 AM   #54
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I don't know about the top angle. If you set it up on a level bench with 5mm more shims under the rear bolts than the front in the bottom plate, you could whack the angle finder on top and get a number to work with.

Taking the springs out and replacing them with solid supports will save a bunch of time and headaches in the long run. Well worth the effort.
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:48 AM   #55
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Thanks. Do you know if the bottom plate is parallel with the top of the cage? .
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I don't know about the top angle.
5 degrees

That's to say if you have the bottom parallel with the ground the top of the center section will be 5 degrees. Not sure if this is built in to the cage or not. I don't use the cages.
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:19 AM   #56
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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5 degrees

That's to say if you have the bottom parallel with the ground the top of the center section will be 5 degrees. Not sure if this is built in to the cage or not. I don't use the cages.
I will pull the rear out from under my truck and check it out. It is good info to have so would be word checking. Guess I will need to pull the front and rear springs. I can see the rears won't be an issue, but can you take them out without removing the cage? As for the front, will I need a spring compressor? Or can the bottom plate just be removed? I'm assuming it's under serious load and that might not be a smooth idea ; )
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Old 02-07-2011, 12:08 PM   #57
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

to take out the front spring get some grade 8 threaded rod about a foot long and replace 4 of the spring plate bolts with it. put nuts on rod and take out other bolts. loosen nuts to slowly lower the spring plate. at the jag shop i worked for saw way to many springs almost hurt someone.
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Old 02-07-2011, 12:10 PM   #58
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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to take out the front spring get some grade 8 threaded rod about a foot long and replace 4 of the spring plate bolts with it. put nuts on rod and take out other bolts. loosen nuts to slowly lower the spring plate. at the jag shop i worked for saw way to many springs almost hurt someone.
awesome tech right there.... better than my floor jack approach...
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:16 PM   #59
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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awesome tech right there.... better than my floor jack approach...
if it is mounted in a car you can use the threaded rod and a floor jack with a chain under the jack and over the frame. then just lower the jack slowly
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Old 02-07-2011, 05:23 PM   #60
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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to take out the front spring get some grade 8 threaded rod about a foot long and replace 4 of the spring plate bolts with it. put nuts on rod and take out other bolts. loosen nuts to slowly lower the spring plate. at the jag shop i worked for saw way to many springs almost hurt someone.

Or you can get a piece of 3/4 threaded rod and put it through the middle of the spring. Either way is safe.

Slag's way would be much easier for putting the spring back in though
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:56 PM   #61
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

a lot of people here dont bother with the radius rods in solid mounted jag rears,and the top of the diff does slant downwards,
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:22 AM   #62
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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a lot of people here dont bother with the radius rods in solid mounted jag rears,and the top of the diff does slant downwards,
I'm rubber mounting it.
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:53 AM   #63
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Hi
I've been researching a Jag rear too, and I've found that the top of the assembly over the pumpkin leans forward 6 degrees (pinion angle)
also I see people saying rubber mounting the rear will lessen diff noise though your chassis. I'm still looking, and won't make a decision until I read, read, read all I can.and ask questions of those who have done it.

good luck, I like the name of the car too ..... "language of the Mad...."
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:16 AM   #64
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Hi
I've been researching a Jag rear too, and I've found that the assembly leans forward 6 degrees (pinion angle)
also I see people saying rubber mounting the rear will lessen diff noise though your chassis. Solid mounting would mean making sure the diffis serviced right to stop any unwanted noise.
I'm still looking, and won't make a decision until I read, read, read all I can.and ask questions of those who have done it.

good luck, I like the name of the car too ..... "language of the Mad...."
I'm still not sure. I've read over and over that the motor and trans is down 3 degrees but the pinion angle of the rear is set to "0" degrees in the Jag.
I'm starting to think this is one of those things that will never be a 100%. I really think I'm gonna follow the general rule of thinking and try to match up the pinion angle of both the motor/trans and diff. I'm a ways off from actually mounting the IRS so I have more time to research. I will at least wait until my motor and trans is mounting to see what angle I get it in. I'm not sure how they will sit with the Jag IFS and my cab. I'm hoping the trans will clear the cab and I can set the angle a 3 degrees. If so, I will try to match it with the rear. I'm not too concerned with the wheels moving back a bit with the suspension travel. To me that would be better than having vibration from the driveline.
I went yesterday and picked up a bunch of steel for finishing off my frame. Boxing plate material, boxed tubing, channel,.... 80' of steel for $120 It sure is nice to have connections. Not sure how much he saved me but I'm sure it was a lot as the workers in the shop that cut the 20' lengths of steel for me were looking at my invoice with a strange look. The "who is this guy and how did he get these prices" look. Love that.
Anyways, switching gears for a few so I won't have any progress pictures on the rear for a while. I'm gonna build a frame for the bed. When I was gonna use the Explorer 8.8 rear axle in my truck, I bought a set of leaf spring hangers for about $60 from a local 4X4 parts manufacturer. Rough Stuff Specialties. It was the front hangers and rear shackle mounts with poly bushings. Rather than scrap them or sell them, they will work as the rear pivot mount for my tilt bed if I use them together. So I'm building a frame out of 1'x3" x .120 box tubing that the bed will attach to. It will mount on the end of the frame with the poly bushing and pivot there. The front will rest on rubber pads on the top of the frame. I will fab up a spring loaded latching system with the release on the drivers side to be able to quickly tilt the bed when fueling and what not.


Last edited by IRON MAIDEN; 02-10-2011 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:23 AM   #65
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Don't make it so you have to tilt the bed to fuel. What happens if you have a load in the bed and need gas?
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:48 PM   #66
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Don't make it so you have to tilt the bed to fuel. What happens if you have a load in the bed and need gas?
Not gonna happen. I have a newer Dodge Ram that's my work truck. This won't be used for that. I see your point though. Plus I plan on using the factory fill spot on the cab anyways. I might be using the dual tanks from the Jaguar so the 2nd tank would need to be filled by lifting the bed. Primary tank won't have to. I actually thought ahead ; )
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:12 AM   #67
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I'm a ways off from actually mounting the IRS so I have more time to research. I will at least wait until my motor and trans is mounting to see what angle I get it in. I'm not sure how they will sit with the Jag IFS and my cab. I'm hoping the trans will clear the cab and I can set the angle a 3 degrees. If so, I will try to match it with the rear. I'm not too concerned with the wheels moving back a bit with the suspension travel. To me that would be better than having vibration from the driveline.

I would recommend mounting the rear suspension before the motor and box, and adjusting the motor and box to suit. Apart from the wheel moving back when the suspension compresses, it will also be even more prone to squat in the rear when you stomp on it. (Jags already do this)

The pinion angle should match the output shaft angle, but it doesn't need to be in the same direction. The diff can be nose down and the gearbox tail down. As long as they are both the same angle it will be good. This is a scan from one of my engineering books that explains pretty well. (hooke joint = universal joint)




Also, the twin tanks in a Jag are a real headache, they might work in Chev trucks ( ? ) but are more trouble than most anything else on a Jag.
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:21 AM   #68
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Iron Maiden,
Tech week coming up... lots of pics my friend. Document everything very well. You could be a contender!!!
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:31 AM   #69
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Iron Maiden,
Tech week coming up... lots of pics my friend. Document everything very well. You could be a contender!!!

????????


Toddc, thanks yet again. I will read that. I have someone willing to buy the two Jag tanks but I wanted to see how they would fit in my truck first. If I don't like em', I'm selling them to buy another. Just trying to use as much as I can. Still need to rip out the wiper system in it to have for my truck. I want to get the gas pedal as well, it look like a nice setup.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:01 AM   #70
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Also, the twin tanks in a Jag are a real headache, they might work in Chev trucks ( ? ) but are more trouble than most anything else on a Jag.

I have had two Jags with twin tanks, never an issue.

.
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:10 PM   #71
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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????????
HAMB Tech Week...
When all the mad fabricators and garage tinkerers do a "tech thread" explaining in great detail how they did, built, or accomplished something relevant to the hot rod community.

There is usually a very nice prize, and this time is no exception
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=556172

Have a look thru the tech archives. Quite a few of these are past winners
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8

Anyone can propose and sponsor a tech week. Infact, I did one a couple years ago. Got about 10 guys who donated stuff for prizes, and over 100 tech entries.

Sooooo,,, take lots of photo's of your IFS/IRS conversion, doccument everything you do very well, and in a couple weeks when tech week rolls around, put together a "how to" and submit it as your entry!!!
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:45 PM   #72
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Not so sure a Jag IFS/IRS install is worthy as it's been done so many times before me and there are plenty of threads online to be sifted through. Plus, how many guys are building K/KB series Binders? I'm on the OldIHC site and there are only a handfull of interested members who care what I'm doing. Even though, as we have all seen by my pics, this is a very good option for these trucks as both the front and rear systems damn near bolt in. Thanks for the heads up on the tech reads. Didn't know HAMB had those.
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:54 PM   #73
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Not so sure a Jag IFS/IRS install is worthy as it's been done so many times before me and there are plenty of threads online to be sifted through. Plus, how many guys are building K/KB series Binders? I'm on the OldIHC site and there are only a handfull of interested members who care what I'm doing. Even though, as we have all seen by my pics, this is a very good option for these trucks as both the front and rear systems damn near bolt in. Thanks for the heads up on the tech reads. Didn't know HAMB had those.

The front clip is a popular choice for Chevy/GMC A.D. trucks so I don't think it would be much of a stretch to put one in your IH.

The only problem the Brits have with putting Jag parts in American iron is that the donor cars are nearly all RHD so they have to source a LHD rack, obviously not an issue over here..

Heres some links about the rear set up..
http://www.uk-hotrods.co.uk/v2/tech/...r/tech_jag.php

http://www.nsra.org.uk/forum/topic.a...88&whichpage=1
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:46 PM   #74
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I have had two Jags with twin tanks, never an issue.
I've had 5 with twin tanks, 3 were troublesome. 2 I never drove

The 3 way valves gave me a lot of grief. I'd fill both tanks only to find that the regulator return would be pumping into the wrong tank - petrol everywhere Or fill just one tank, not watch the gauge while driving and run out of fuel. It had drained to the other tank...

I've had dozens of cars with only 1 fuel tank. Never had any of these problems with them....
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:03 PM   #75
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Not so sure a Jag IFS/IRS install is worthy as it's been done so many times before me and there are plenty of threads online to be sifted through. Plus, how many guys are building K/KB series Binders? I'm on the OldIHC site and there are only a handfull of interested members who care what I'm doing. Even though, as we have all seen by my pics, this is a very good option for these trucks as both the front and rear systems damn near bolt in. Thanks for the heads up on the tech reads. Didn't know HAMB had those.
All the same, I would encourage you to at least consider it.
You have done a tremendous amount of work finding out the details that most of the other swap write up's seem to leave out. Perfecting the angles and such, as well as rubber mounting your IFS/IRS, which most other swaps do not.
It sure cant hurt, and it might just earn you a $1000 prize... If nothing else, having a nice condensed tutorial on mounting the Jag components would be worthy of putting in the tech archives. As it is, you have to dig thru hundreds of pages of comments and feedback to piece together the relevant information.
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Old 02-11-2011, 10:12 AM   #76
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I've had dozens of cars with only 1 fuel tank. Never had any of these problems with them....
Bwahahaha........ You may be on to something...

.
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:13 AM   #77
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

OK, so I read more than anyone should ever have to on one subject. And I still don't know the right way. This pinion angle argument is down right crazy. Rule of thumb, blah blah blah.... Keep reading how it's a must to match the M/T angle to the Diff, then the next guy writes how it doesn't apply to the Jag rear. ??????????????
I still have time to figure this out but it seems that every time I read into it, I just get more confused. I have a source for a set of wheels and tires from a buddy and if it's what I want, I should get them for cheap. They are Centerline Champ 500's. I love the original satin Centerlines and found a set for $250 but would still need tires. So I'm hoping the wheels and tires are the sizes I want and can get them at the deal I'm hoping for. Then the install will be back on. After all my questions and reading, here is my plan of attack.

I will pull the front springs and place wood blocks in their spots to level the lower "A" arms so the front suspension will sit at normal ride height.
Install the front wheels and tires I plan on running.

Remove all four coil-overs on the rear suspension and like the front, block it so it sits at the correct ride height. Half shafts level that is. Install the rear wheels and tires I plan on using.

Position the Jag rear, cage and all, back under the frame. I can then position my frame on the Jag cage how I need it to keep whatever rake and ride height I want.

The only question is the damn angle of the Jag IRS. OK, I have more than one ; )

Sounds like I should place my angle finder on the front flange of the differencial as it's machined flat and would be a true indication of the pinion angle of the rear.
If I set it level "0 degrees", won't that result in the suspension travel moving straight up and down?

Or tilt the front flange up 3 degrees( causing the cage and all to tilt the same) and try to match that when I install the motor? Won't that cause the suspension travel to move backwards in my rear fenders a bit in its travel?

I'm sure 3-5 degrees shouldn't be too tough to set my motor and trans at when I go to install it. But it's the damn Jag differencial that I'm not sure of and it seems nobody is. I've read the Jag sets it at 0 degrees but their motor/trans is at 3?

My hopes with this truck as a daily driver will be 7K-8K miles a year. I plan to drive it. With that, I worry about doing it right so I'm not having to replace parts do to premature wear. I also don't want vibration on the freeway as I will be driving on one to work.

Too bad we don't have one of the Jag engineers available to chime in on this.
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:29 PM   #78
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Sounds like I should place my angle finder on the front flange of the differencial as it's machined flat and would be a true indication of the pinion angle of the rear.
If I set it level "0 degrees", won't that result in the suspension travel moving straight up and down?
Its been a while since I had a cage/diff pulled apart, but I think there is pinion angle built into the setup. I seem to remember the pinion being nose up when the suspension was level.
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Old 02-11-2011, 09:52 PM   #79
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Its been a while since I had a cage/diff pulled apart, but I think there is pinion angle built into the setup. I seem to remember the pinion being nose up when the suspension was level.

From what I read, the top of the cage and the top of the pumpkin are both angled. Together, they cancel each other out and place the pinion at 0 degrees. If there was a built in pinion angle already and all you had to do was level the cage/suspension..... I would be a happy camper. But.... don't think it is from what I've found online.
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:04 AM   #80
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Do you have an angle finder? Seems like its time to start measuring your suspension to check what's true and what's just internet garbage.

If you level the suspension the way I described earlier it would give you a good (reliable) basis to work your numbers from. THe bolts I measured from are " 2 " in the drawing below.
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:41 AM   #81
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Didn't you say the rear was 5mm higher? Was it possible the ground was not level and that was where the 5mm came from? I'm gonna have the bed back off today and will check the rear. I'll level the unit from the bolts on the bottom, the ones you measured from, then check the pinion angle from the face of the flange. Stay tuned ; )
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:42 AM   #82
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

BTW Toddc, where did that drawing come from? Do you have a Jag manual?
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:41 PM   #83
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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BTW Toddc, where did that drawing come from? Do you have a Jag manual?

Yeah, its from the Jag manual. The thing is an inch and a half thick
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:56 PM   #84
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Been a bit since I posted. The Jag rear got put on the side burner until I was able to figure out the bed. I turned it into a dump bed and needed to have it in its mounting position so that I can make sure I get the Jag rear in the right position. So I went to town on the bed making a bed frame and the rear pivot/mounts so that it can be mounted and tilted out of my way to work on the rear. It's nowhere done as it still needs the crossmembers for the wood floor, front latching system, and a few other things. But it works and is what I needed to do to make sure, and have piece of mind, that I am mounting the Jag rear right where it needs to be. But, like everything else I've done to the truck, once I figure 1 thing out, it creates a new problem or decision to make on my direction. Bed down, who cares if the rear is in the OEM cage. But looking at how cool the truck looks with the bed tilted up......... now I'm having second thoughts on if I should keep it in the cage or not.

So my questions are this.....
How much better will the ride be if it's rubber mounted over removing it from the cage and building a new crossmember and mounting it that way?
And give me your thoughts on what you think I should do. I am leaning towards uncaging this cat simply for the awe factor of how it will look when I lift the bed.
Let's hear your thoughts....










Last edited by IRON MAIDEN; 02-21-2011 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:58 PM   #85
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:00 PM   #86
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester





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Old 02-21-2011, 02:03 PM   #87
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

In the last picture above, see how much better it would look out of the cage?????
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Old 02-22-2011, 06:41 AM   #88
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Will it ride or handle any different without the cage....No
Will the truck be lower without the cage... maybe
Will it be a lot more work to install without the cage...YES
Will it look better without the cage....YES
Will the truck get finished sooner with the cage... Yes
Only you can decide if it's worth the trouble, if it was me I would leave the cage on and finish the truck so I could drive it. Instead of trying to make it so awesome that it never gets done. But that's just me.
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Old 02-22-2011, 07:20 AM   #89
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Will it ride or handle any different without the cage....No
Will the truck be lower without the cage... maybe
Will it be a lot more work to install without the cage...YES
Will it look better without the cage....YES
Will the truck get finished sooner with the cage... Yes
Only you can decide if it's worth the trouble, if it was me I would leave the cage on and finish the truck so I could drive it. Instead of trying to make it so awesome that it never gets done. But that's just me.
I have to disagree. it's pretty damned easy without the cage. And straightforward. Not to say that I have a preference. But I find the installs equal either way... just saying.
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Old 02-22-2011, 07:20 AM   #90
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I've always heard (and practiced) level the frame, pinion up 3*, motor and trans down 3*.

My $.02

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Old 02-22-2011, 07:25 AM   #91
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I've always heard (and practiced) level the frame, pinion up 3*, motor and trans down 3*.
have you ever done a jag rear? because what you propose is incorrect in this situation. The setup is done by leveling across the bottom of the suspension in this instance.
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Old 02-22-2011, 09:02 AM   #92
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I think in the case of this truck, I would go ahead and use the cage. Simplify mounting a bit, keep everything rubber mounted to absorb vibration, and the honest truth is that it will be so far up under your truck that it won't be visable until you tip the bed. Also, the cage looks kind of "trucky" in my opinion.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:42 AM   #93
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Not stirring the pot on purpose, but:

Just measured my 1969 XJ rear for included pinion angle. There is none. The dog bone pivot plane is parallel to the pinion at both the attachment point and at the hub carrier.

Three degrees of pinion up would put three degrees of positive caster into the IRS.



So, this made me dig around a bit and I landed on Eng-Tips for some advice without drama. This explains why pinion up and the positive caster is going to help you and maybe why Jaguar built these rear axle assemblies this way:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=36015&page=25

Quote:
SWB (Automotive) 7 Nov 02 22:09
The more the rear tires move rearward as the chassis squats, the more anti-squat you have. You will do this by pointing the pivot axis (in side view) upward at the front. You will have to be careful however, to make sure the radius arms do not pull the wheels forward as the car squats. They will have to also be angled upward at the front to accomplish this. I'll let Greg have the joy of explaining how to calculate the percentage.

Sean

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GregLocock (Automotive) 7 Nov 02 22:47
I have a big and boring program to calculate this for me, but in principle it is fairly easy to work out. The idea is that the tractive force at the contact patch creates a couple around the CG of the body, tending to rotate the nose up. A cunning designer alters the effective line of force in the suspension so that an additional force pushes up as well as forward. This rotates the nose back down.

Imagine a pure trailing arm with a horizontal arm, pin jointed at both ends. The tractive force will be applied to the body at the height of the arm, which will be at the height of the wheel centre.

Now tilt the arm upwards at the body end. There will now be an additional vertical force at the body, becasue a pin jointed arm can only react forces along its length. This can be used to prop the rear of the body up, compensating for the nose up pitch due to the tractive force.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SWB (Automotive) 8 Nov 02 22:02
Here is how I visualize it.

Tire wants to go forward in a hurry.

Chassis has massive, inertial-based reasons to stay still.

If the tire moves forward in squat, it will allow the tire to move forward to an extent, while the chassis stays still (to an extent).

If the tire moves backwards in squat, it will tend to extend the suspension as it tries to go forward, which will tend to lift the back of the chassis.
I'll digest this post for you,

The positive caster (hub carrier leaning back) will work similar in acceleration as does anti-dive does for an IFS under braking.

This one deals with drive line and half shaft angles,

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=256652&page=5
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:10 AM   #94
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

See how it comes back to the damn debate on the pinion angle!!!! I'm starting to think there is no right way to do it.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:10 PM   #95
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Don't stress out man!

Trust me, I'm not trying to start shit. I just want to give you the information and you can do what ever you want.

The second post I listed from Eng-Tips discusses drive line angles in a way. We have hashed this out numerous times before on how to kill driveline vibrations with link and leaf suspended solid axles. There are two possible scenarios, pinion up (parallel angle) and pinion down (intersecting angle). Both can work to cancel out vibration so long as the working angles match. The rub with a solid axle in this situation is the axle moves! Unless the pinion rotates in such a manor the working angles match as the axle compresses and rebounds the intersecting angles can cause a vibration. With parallel angles and a rear suspension that doesn't change pinion angle throughout it's travel (or very little) you have a better shot at avoiding the mismatch.

IRS rears can tolerate a pinion down because nothing moves in regard to the driveline.

I understand where Scott is coming from making the dogbones level. It would set a neutral rear and work just fine. However, if your engine is more than a degree or two off the pinion axis you "could" get a low rumble from the Universal joints.

From where I stand, it seems like a natural to put the pinion up 2 or 3 to match the engine. The added benefit is a higher anti-squat line.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:18 PM   #96
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Listen to this guy above!!!
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:24 PM   #97
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Is there any way to adjust the pinion angle with shims under the differential, separate from adjusting the cage? Another words set the cage on the correct angle for the suspension to work right, and then shim the center section within the cage to get the correct pinion angle. Maybe this is not possible just a thought.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:47 PM   #98
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

no matter what angle you put the engine, pinion there will be the angle that the pinion is offset to the passenger side to make sure the u joints work.

different model jags have different lower control arm mounts that keep arms parell to the ground and change the pinion angle
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:52 PM   #99
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I understand where Scott is coming from making the dogbones level. It would set a neutral rear and work just fine. However, if your engine is more than a degree or two off the pinion axis you "could" get a low rumble from the Universal joints.

From where I stand, it seems like a natural to put the pinion up 2 or 3 to match the engine. The added benefit is a higher anti-squat line.
both engine/trans and rear are set at zero in the Buick. Never have had an issue with the u-joints, and the degree of offset of the pinion is equal in the u-joints. I could measure it if need be.

As for anti-squat that is interesting. I have read a lot of how the Jag has it built in.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:53 PM   #100
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Is there any way to adjust the pinion angle with shims under the differential, separate from adjusting the cage? Another words set the cage on the correct angle for the suspension to work right, and then shim the center section within the cage to get the correct pinion angle. Maybe this is not possible just a thought.
Not without affecting the rest of the suspension.
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:22 PM   #101
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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both engine/trans and rear are set at zero in the Buick. Never have had an issue with the u-joints, and the degree of offset of the pinion is equal in the u-joints. I could measure it if need be.

As for anti-squat that is interesting. I have read a lot of how the Jag has it built in.

I thought the engine was pretty level in that car from seeing it in person. I don't remember if you still had the rubber mounted cage also. I could understand using the rubber mounted cage to help isolate the odd shake or rumble and masking any driveline angle issues, like leaf spring suspensions do on "normal" stuff.

I don't have any access to nor have I spent a ton of time researching stock Jags, but I just wonder if the "built in" anti-squat you speak of is related to pinion up...

hmmm
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:31 PM   #102
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

iron maiden ive just fitted a corvette irs into my 38 chevy.i had similar problems to you .this is how i approached it.before i removed the irs i parked the doner car over a pit and took detailed measurements of trailing arm mounting heights trailing arm angle half shaft angle and pinion angle take plenty of pictures ..even though i thought i had everything covered i still needed to get under another corvette to double check( pinion angle what else)put air in the tyres.my wheel/tyre combo was 26 1/4 inches high make sere you are happy with your tyre sizes before you start
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Old 02-22-2011, 01:49 PM   #103
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

my pinion angle was 0 degrees yes 0 degrees.every book i read said 3 degrees.my vette was 0 degrees (1971) the other corvette was 0 degrees (1974)rang heidts who do there own irs they said 0 degrees for independent rear.i set the engine gearbox falling at 3 degrees as per stock 71 vette.before i set these angles i sat the chassis on two metal tressles and bolted the chassis to the tressles and the tressles to the floor at my finished desired ride height.then i bolted some sheets of m d f to the floor to allow me to draw a centre line for the vehicle and calculate axle centre lines.i sat the frame at the rake i liked and leveled the frame across the frame.bolted on some body work so i could place the wheels in the opes where they looked best.i would unbolt the shocks in your suspension and measure the centre to centre in a set of shocks in a complete car make two struts one for each and bolt them in instead.that will save yoy trying to compress the springs.

consider this my engine and box are centred in the chassis but thepinion shaft is ofset so looking from above there is a couple of degrees in the drive shaft i was nt expecting

could i suggest bolting some plates instead of the wheels to stop the unit from rolling around and to hold the axle assembly at ride height while you work on it.once you get going it will get easier good luck im subscribed to this one have a look at my build (www.hotrod.ie) different builds but similar.i set my halfshafts falling 1 degree so they would be level when i sat in and set the trailing arms falling 1 degree so they would be level when i got in.im not saying this is the right way to do just how i approached it.
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:06 AM   #104
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Very nice build. Sounds a lot like mine. I planned on a fenderless Ratrod until I realized how solid the truck was. So here I am.
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:35 AM   #105
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

so did i when i realized how solid my fenders are i had to use them will still need a little panel beating though.lack of fenders wont keep it off the road but will eventually get fitted
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:35 PM   #106
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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In the last picture above, see how much better it would look out of the cage?????
did the same thing with a dump bed but no cage
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Old 02-23-2011, 10:32 PM   #107
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Question Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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It's a Dana 44 so I'm not sure why it wouldn't. It's what they use in most of the Cobra's so I would assume it would either hold up or can be made to. How about some pics of your sons KB3??? Mine is a 46' K3, same thing pretty much. How does the Volare front ride?
Hey Iron Maiden looking for some info here may be you would know, I've got one of these rear diffs and I was told that it is a Dana 44 and to rebuild it the Jag parts are pricey but the domestic parts will fit except that the ring gear on the domestics are drilled for 7/16 bolts and will have to be drilled out to 1/2" to fit the Jag carrier. I don't know if they do or they don't... never messed with this stuff before just looking to see if anyone knew for sure
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:30 PM   #108
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

If this has been asked and answered then i'm sorry( but i flipped though the thread a couple times and could not find what year Jag this comes from. And maybe the series numbers tells me but i'm not sure.
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:16 AM   #109
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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See how it comes back to the damn debate on the pinion angle!!!! I'm starting to think there is no right way to do it.
I recently had the same concern about the pinion angle when installing a Jag rear in my '36 Ford convertible sedan. My research indicated that the pinion shaft needed to be level for the suspension to work right, so my first thought was to also set the engine and trans level. Unfortunately, that had my oil pan nearly touching the ground if the the u-joint angles were kept at no more than 5 degrees. My solution was to keep the pinion shaft level, set the driveshaft at 2.5 degrees up toward the front and the engine/trans at 5 degrees upward. That got the oil pan off the ground and made the u-joint angles the same at 2.5 degrees. Even though the pinion shaft and crankshaft are not parallel, the angles at the front and rear u-joints are still the same and that's what counts. This solution required a little playing with the motor and trans mount elevations to make it work, but I had a lot of flexibility there. Maybe it will work for you.
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:09 AM   #110
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

ive just been on kugel komponents web site .they do a jag based irs .their recommendation is to raise the pinion slightly to match trans angle see
( http://www.kugelkomponents.com/produ.../Kugel_IRS.pdf )

phone these guys for tech support 562 691 7006
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:50 AM   #111
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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my pinion angle was 0 degrees yes 0 degrees.every book i read said 3 degrees.my vette was 0 degrees (1971) the other corvette was 0 degrees (1974)rang heidts who do there own irs they said 0 degrees for independent rear.
I believe that 3 degree number is to take into consideration the movement of the rear end. as the suspension compresses that angle will go to 0. The IRS the center section does not move with the suspension. Hence it doesn't need to compromise. The '85 Jag I took the one for my Buick out of the pinion was 0. the Bottom of the suspension was level.
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:25 PM   #112
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I believe that 3 degree number is to take into consideration the movement of the rear end. as the suspension compresses that angle will go to 0. The IRS the center section does not move with the suspension. Hence it doesn't need to compromise. The '85 Jag I took the one for my Buick out of the pinion was 0. the Bottom of the suspension was level.
at last some one making sense.I R S needs a slightly different approach.when i started my rod i expected to fit the engine/box drive shaft and pinion in line,reading up on the subject proved otherwise .the 3 degrees is also to spin the rollers in the harvey spicers so each of the caged bearings in the spicer takes theload and spins the rollers spreading the load preventing the races from groving destroying the bearing prematurly even with the pinion at 0 in an irs the pinion is off centre while the trans is centred .if you think three dimensionally you are gaining pinion angle in three planes

do i know what i mean
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:36 PM   #113
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Does a Jag rear end have one axle longer then the other, with the center section offset to one side? If so and the engine and trans are centered, the degree of offset would be built in on the horizontal plane, to make the U joints work correctly without flat spots on the rollers. Instead of the vertical plane as on a conventional rear end set up.
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:49 PM   #114
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Does a Jag rear end have one axle longer then the other, with the center section offset to one side? If so and the engine and trans are centered, the degree of offset would be built in on the horizontal plane, to make the U joints work correctly without flat spots on the rollers. Instead of the vertical plane as on a conventional rear end set up.
i would expect the half shafts to be equal lengths , but the pinion is off to one side in the centre section take one apart and u will understand why
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:49 PM   #115
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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i would expect the half shafts to be equal lengths , but the pinion is off to one side in the centre section take one apart and u will understand why
yep.
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:04 PM   #116
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

heres a good picture http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1596&bih=687 (
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:20 PM   #117
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

So just level the rear? 0 degrees pinion? Motor and trans at "0" or "3"?
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Old 02-24-2011, 04:39 PM   #118
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I suggest pinion at 0 degrees .engine and tranny falling 3 degrees front of motor up rear of tranny low good luck
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:04 PM   #119
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

UK Hot Rods: News, tech, chat, email group for hot rods, street rods and kustoms

This is different from your build but has a lot of really good information. I am doing a 53 F100 with the same setup and battled with the cage or cageless and the pinion angle. I punted and went with an 8.8 explorer rearend and kept the jag IFS for my build.

The Dana 44 internals will work inside the pumpkin and there is a kit to make them fit correctly. For the price I would have to pay just for the gears and install kit I bought a 3.73 geared limited slip rear. The jag is a really nice way to go and can be had cheap. Good luck with your build man!!!!
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:19 PM   #120
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by f100newb View Post
UK Hot Rods: News, tech, chat, email group for hot rods, street rods and kustoms

This is different from your build but has a lot of really good information. I am doing a 53 F100 with the same setup and battled with the cage or cageless and the pinion angle. I punted and went with an 8.8 explorer rearend and kept the jag IFS for my build.



The Dana 44 internals will work inside the pumpkin and there is a kit to make them fit correctly. For the price I would have to pay just for the gears and install kit I bought a 3.73 geared limited slip rear. The jag is a really nice way to go and can be had cheap. Good luck with your build man!!!!
I already have an Explorer 8.8. I just decided to go all Jag for the ride quality. I'm selling the 8.8 this weekend.
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:34 PM   #121
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Might I suggest that you PM Langy here on the HAMB. He has fitted a number of Jag rears to all sorts and would be able to advise you on the pinion angle.

P.
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:52 PM   #122
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
I'm cage mounting the rear with the rubber mounts. The issues I'm having are just not knowing or understanding how to set the rear up. I am a visual guy and seeing pictures help me understand what I am reading. I have had several people try to explain how the radius arms should be mounted. I'm not grasping it so pictures are needed to tie it all together.
Beyond my questions of the radius arms are many other questions. Let's say my frame is sitting at the rake I want it at. I position the Jag cage/IRS up under the frame in the position it needs to be in. Do I set the cage to mount level? Where on the cage do I place my level? On the tom above the pumpkin? Underneath the pumpkin?
By leveling the cage, does that also set the pinion at 0 degrees? Or do I angle the cage 3-5 degrees to set my pinion? Will that effect the suspension?
Another question is again about the radius arms. As it sits, not enough weight is on the rear to drop the suspension into the neutral position. The lower control arms are angled down. Are they supposed to be level with the ground like on the front Jag suspension? Do I need to get them in this position to figure out the radius arm mounting?
Too many questions.......
Hi Im glad you're asking for lots of info for newbe's -im learning at the same time.
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:00 AM   #123
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

stick your head under a laden jag IRS and take a measurement on the shocks centre to centre remove the shocks from your suspension and replace with a flat bar drilled on the new centres this will similate the compressed height of the springs and giveyou a very good idea of the ride height without trying to compress the springs .this is what i used on my corvette set up
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Old 02-26-2011, 02:07 PM   #124
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

this might help someone (DIAGRAMS) http://www.uk-hotrods.co.uk/v2/tech/...r/tech_jag.php
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:25 PM   #125
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I suggest pinion at 0 degrees .engine and tranny falling 3 degrees front of motor up rear of tranny low good luck


I suggest that the pinion angle match the angle of the motor and trans. The pinion angle in a Jag IRS doesn't change under load ( not enough to worry about anyway) like a leaf sprung rear. Hence, no need to compensate for it.


An apart from that WTF does it matter if the pinion is offset to the right?
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:51 PM   #126
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Slag Kustom.......the pics in your post show using 'radius rods' to help control the hub carrier with the rods going straight forward to their attach points on the frame. The geometry of that system is incorrect for the Jag suspension. On the Jag rear end, the control arms move in a verticle motion....with the radius rod pivoting at the frame it will move in an arc at the hub carrier and try to "pull" the hub carrier in an arc when it is not normally moving in that way. That will cause a binding in the lower control arms inner pivots and will try to move the wheels into a toe-in position.

When adding arms in the manner you have shown, the forward pivots have to be inboard and in longitudinal alignment with the lower control arm inner pivots to avoid adversely loading the rear suspenion. I realize the original Jag arms bolt to the body/frame ahead of the hub carrier, BUT, they are mounted in very soft rubber bushings that absorb the induced misalignment. Though it is simple to fabricate and looks good, it appears there is no such "give" in the system pictured and will not function correctly.

As for all the debate about pinion angle, it seems pretty obvious the Jag has 0 degress at the pinion flange as installed by the factory. Any change from that changes the rear geometry unless the control arm pivots are also moved to compensate. It seems to me that if either end of the driveshaft would be fitted with a double Carden joint (aka CV joint) it should eliminate any driveline problem resulting from the engine trans centerline at 3 degrees or so.

Also, someone mentioned in their post that "since the Jag rear end isn't attached to the suspension the pinion would not rise on acceleration....." That is not true. The pinion's (and housing's) tendency to rise upon initial acceleration is the pinion gear trying to "climb" the ring gear because the ring gear resists movement because it is connected to the tires through the axle shafts, IRS or not. However, In Jags and Vettes, the differential carrier is held more rigidly in place because of how it is mounted and THAT resists upward movement of the pinion as compared to a solid ("live") rear axle system.

Ray
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Old 03-04-2011, 04:25 PM   #127
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Re solid mounted diff head.
This is by far the best solution to have for the front end of the rods.
The distance apart should be the same as the pivot points by the diff head.
The bars should be about 1 metre (40") long.
Any torsional twisting incurred is taken up here.
Having them parallel to the chassis rails will in time fail due to incorrect geometry.
Unless of course you use the original Jag system completely. eg all rubber mounted in the cage.

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Old 03-04-2011, 07:31 PM   #128
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester



Can't get it any better but you get the idea I hope.




.

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Old 03-05-2011, 06:45 PM   #129
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

A link here to info and drawings on setting up the jag rear.

http://www.uk-hotrods.co.uk/v2/tech/...r/tech_jag.php
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:28 PM   #130
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

That's what I was looking for. Thanks.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:27 AM   #131
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I took a shot at clearing up the image LIFESTYLZ posted with photoshop. Not sure how to post it full size though.

Ken
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:07 AM   #132
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Hey thanks.
I'm still trying to access the original off the Oz govt website.
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:38 AM   #133
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Hi, I've been following this thread, as I'm also about to fit my Jag IRS (currently tacked in place). I have been collecting info off the net for a while now.
Initially I was going to run the radius rods straight forward to a pivot point under the chassis rails (like in the original Jag), until I saw the info in this thread and started doing more homework.
It does appear that if you are hard mounting the diff to the chassis, you have to tri-angulate the rods. I have attached some pics and some instructions from www.snowwhiteltd.com on their Jag crossmember.

Steve
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:33 AM   #134
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Dakota, any more pics of that last one? It looks to be cage mounted.....
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:44 PM   #135
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Lol that's mine, under my 34 Chevy. It's still in the cage because I have only tacked it in position to get the ride height/rake right. There is a piece of steel conduit tacked in as well to stabilize it while being rolled around.
I'm going to take the entire thing out of the cage and mount it to a plate fixed to 2 cross-members (see sketch).
I will also be closing off the ends of the chassis rails at the back. Still working on some ideas.
Steve
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:34 PM   #136
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I'm about to drop mine out of the Jag to put in the F1 frame, I'll take a few pictures before I do. I was thinking of using the two piece drive shaft. I did some measurements with the frame level and the Jag pinion angle is zero degrees, as is the bottom of the front Xmember. I think this thread has given me the information I need, thanks for starting it Iron Maiden and good luck on your project.
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:23 PM   #137
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
I'm about to drop mine out of the Jag to put in the F1 frame, I'll take a few pictures before I do. I was thinking of using the two piece drive shaft. I did some measurements with the frame level and the Jag pinion angle is zero degrees, as is the bottom of the front Xmember. I think this thread has given me the information I need, thanks for starting it Iron Maiden and good luck on your project.

Thanks. I wish I was done so it was a bit more complete. $$$$ is the hangup. I am waiting on a set of Centerline Champ 500's from a friend of mine. Once I have those I can get this finished. I removed the coil-overs from the rear and fabbed up some spacers to hold the rear in the loaded position. I need to remove the front springs and fab something to sit the front down as well. Then setting up the IRS should be a snap. Stay tuned and please either post your install photos and info on this thread or start one of your own so we can see. Thanks for posting about the stock Jag being level in the front and no pinion angle in the back. Let us know about the drive shaft. I'm curious if they build in some angles in the two piece shaft to correct the motor/trans angle and the pinion 0 degree setup.?????
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:55 PM   #138
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

In the past I have used a two piece drive shaft to split the difference between odd angles and minimize torsional vibrations by raising or lowering the carrier bearing, don't know if this is right but it seemed to work.
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:55 AM   #139
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
I'm curious if they build in some angles in the two piece shaft to correct the motor/trans angle and the pinion 0 degree setup.?????
The two shafts in the jag are put in in perfect alignment, both horizontally and vertically.
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:06 AM   #140
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by LIFESTYLZ View Post
The two shafts in the jag are put in in perfect alignment, both horizontally and vertically.
Why two pieces then? If they are perfectly in line, why the extra joints?
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Old 03-07-2011, 12:21 PM   #141
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Here's a pic of the Jag shaft(s).
I still have the it somewhere in my workshop.
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:23 PM   #142
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
Why two pieces then? If they are perfectly in line, why the extra joints?
My guess would be they didn't want one long one as it would flex too much.
They are only about 2" dia from memory.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:43 PM   #143
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

In removing the parts from mine it looks to be just the over built nature of the beasts. Here are some reference pictures I took today before starting disassembly, More in my album.
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:45 PM   #144
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Mike, thanks.
That is how I set up my front and rear.
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Old 03-08-2011, 08:33 PM   #145
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I removed the 4 coilovers from the IRS and fabbed up some quick spacers to hold it in the loaded position. I think ; ) My spacers are 10.5" center to center.



Lower control arms are pretty much flat and level. Shafts slightly angled up. The shafts, right behind the hub carriers, and the notch of the cage between the rubber mounts are pretty close. Maybe 3". I didn't measure yet.







Last edited by IRON MAIDEN; 03-08-2011 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:57 PM   #146
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by IRON MAIDEN View Post
I removed the 4 coilovers from the IRS and fabbed up some quick spacers to hold it in the loaded position. I think ; ) My spacers are 10.5" center to center.

Lower control arms are pretty much flat and level. Shafts slightly angled up. The shafts, right behind the hub carriers, and the notch of the cage between the rubber mounts are pretty close. Maybe 3". I didn't measure yet.





The lower arms are supposed to angle down. The axles are supposed to be straight.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:01 AM   #147
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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The lower arms are supposed to angle down. The axles are supposed to be straight.
Seems to be differing opinions on this too.
But I looked under my mates stock Jag and, yes, the half shafts are definitely level with the lower control arms angled down from the diff head.
It would alter the camber only I would think.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:16 AM   #148
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Is there anything 100% on installing these things??? Debate after debate!
http://www.uk-hotrods.co.uk/v2/tech/...r/tech_jag.php

Guess I will modify the spacers I made.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:27 AM   #149
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

That's the way I've been schooled to do it. Axles parallel to the ground.
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:05 AM   #150
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Like the pinion angle, I've seen and read it both ways. The link I posted above shows it the way I have it. No big deal, I will just add a little length to the spacers I made to raise it up a tad. It will also give the axles more space between the cage for suspension travel. That was the reason I posted the pictures and mentioned it. Just didn't seem right ; ) Thanks for putting me back on track.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:23 AM   #151
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Well, after much thought..... and I know at some point regret..... I'm not gonna use the Jag rear in my truck. Not because of any of my questions on installing it. Not because I don't want to use it. Not because of anything other than $$$. The more I look at the project, especially the rear, it's just gonna be too much $$$. By the time I figure out the gear swap in this thing, have the suspension rebuilt, brakes, it is just too much. Especially when I have a ready to go Explorer 8.8 with 3.73/Trac-Loc/Disc Brakes sitting right here. I wish $$$ wasn't an issue. The rear would already be mounted if that was the case. But it is, and I had to make a decision. I'm 42 and would like to drive this thing in my 40's ; ) If I use too many parts in my build that will require rebuilding before it's time to drive, then it's gonna take me that much longer to ever be able to get parts and be able to pay for labor on some of these thing. I'm bummed, but it is what it is. Maybe down the road if my $$$ situation improves I can swap a Jag rear back in. But for now, I'm gonna keep my project moving and toss in the Ford 8.8. Hopefully, all the work I did and starting this thread will help someone else use the Jag rear in a Harvester. The rubber mounts line up with the frame rails and it is a great option. Wish my Jag rear was not in need of a gear swap and rebuild so I could just use it. To all the Hambers who helped me along, thanks. At least the Jag IFS is staying in my truck.
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Old 04-10-2011, 11:38 AM   #152
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

As an interested observer of this swap I appreciate the update. While I am sure it is disappointing, I can understand your decision. Best wishes with the project.

Ray
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Old 04-10-2011, 01:59 PM   #153
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Its a pretty easy swap as all you have to do to the drive line is install frd U joints. I have been told that they are the same size, I'm hoping I heard right.
I'm about to put the 9" I got the other day in.
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Old 04-10-2011, 03:52 PM   #154
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Originally Posted by silversink View Post
Its a pretty easy swap as all you have to do to the drive line is install frd U joints. I have been told that they are the same size, I'm hoping I heard right.
I'm about to put the 9" I got the other day in.
Are you talking about swapping to the 8.8? I'm gonna have to get a custom driveline I'm assuming. I'm not expecting my motor and trans combo to be the same as the original IH setup. Even the differencial pinion length could be a factor. It would be cool if it fit though. But I'm guessing an aluminum driveline would be a better choice.
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Old 04-10-2011, 05:55 PM   #155
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I belive there is a yoke that bolts onto the Ford 8.8. pinion flange that allows use of a conventional u-joint. Check with driveline a shop or a 4 x 4 shop. The 8.8 is popular for swapping into Jeeps.

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Old 07-02-2011, 02:58 PM   #156
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I belive there is a yoke that bolts onto the Ford 8.8. pinion flange that allows use of a conventional u-joint. Check with driveline a shop or a 4 x 4 shop. The 8.8 is popular for swapping into Jeeps.
The 8.8 has two or three different sizes of input flanges, these correspond to different size bolt-up yokes on the rear of the driveshaft for 1310 and 1330 U-joints. The Explorer and Mustang typically used a 1310 U-joint and the Crown Vics (and pickups, etc. I think) a 1330. They all take snap-rings outside the caps to retain the cross caps. All readily available.

Iron Maiden, if you need a 1310-to-8.8 flange from an Explorer I think I've got one off an Explorer shaft I pulled for my '65 Mustang. Let me confirm this afternoon (soon as I finish typing this I'm back out to the garage to resume trial-fitting an MN12/FN10 Mk8 IRS under my '64 Country Sedan) but if I've got it I can ship it to you.

Do you know how long a driveshaft you'll need yet? If you're shopping junkyard stuff, look at the Crown Vic cop-cars and some late-model GM pickups, the Crown Vic shaft is a 3.66in diameter 54.5in long aluminum shaft with 1330 yokes at both ends (note the civilian Crown Vic shafts are junk), some late GM truck shafts are ginormous aluminum things. One-piece driveshafts are very rare outside lowish-speed Detroit hardware because of critical-RPM issues in high-speed cruising (Crown Vic cop cars limited to 140mph or so with 3.27 gears, 125 with 3.55s.)

I'm likely going to need the diff flange that bolts up an '08 GT500 driveshaft CV joint to a '91 T-Bird SC iron 8.8 IRS pumpkin, which is a rather different beast than any of the Cardan driveline yokes...I suppose I'll just end up at the Ford dealer.

Last edited by JEM; 07-02-2011 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:27 PM   #157
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Iron Maiden - found the 1310-to-8.8 bolt-on yoke, if you want it PM me a shipping address.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:02 AM   #158
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Thanks JEM. I'm in the middle of a move so I haven't been fooling with the truck or even coming to the site. I will PM you right now.
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:05 AM   #159
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Hey IM, how did you go?
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:14 PM   #160
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Hey IM, how did you go?

How did I go?
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:22 PM   #161
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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How did I go?
Translation: Is it done?
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:07 AM   #162
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Thanks. First, thanks to JEM for the part. Can't thank you enough. I lost track of receiving it as it was right when I was moving. I have it and it will work, thank you.

I've just been collecting parts. I'm sitting on the Jag rear to use at a later time. The 8.8 is what will get the truck on the road. I need to solve the issue of my wheels not fitting on the Jag frontend. The hub shoulder issue. once I can get the front wheels on, I will finish the rear suspension. Then the truck should be sitting at the rake I want (I hope) and I can move forward and mount the engine and trans. Underfloor brake setup, and all other frame xmembers and boxing. Then I can mount my new steering column and figure out the steering linkage.
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:29 PM   #163
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I gained enough knowledge from this thread to put a Jag IRS in my '48 KB. It's from a '72 XJ-12 with a 331 posi. The frame rails are from an early 70's elco. We also shortened the truck by 14 inches.



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Old 03-05-2012, 10:18 AM   #164
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Very nice. Any other pics of your Harvester? Not sure how this thread helped you as everything I showed was with using the cage on the rear. But I'm glad to see you pulled it off. Had I had your gears..... I would have gone with it too. Although I still want a bit higher. The later year XJ12's have 3.55's. Maybe one will turn up.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:47 PM   #165
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I hope you're going to put some fish plates on that chassis graft
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:38 AM   #166
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Very nice. Any other pics of your Harvester? Not sure how this thread helped you as everything I showed was with using the cage on the rear. But I'm glad to see you pulled it off. Had I had your gears..... I would have gone with it too. Although I still want a bit higher. The later year XJ12's have 3.55's. Maybe one will turn up.
Everyone that contributed to the thread with how they uncaged one...
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:53 AM   #167
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Everyone that contributed to the thread with how they uncaged one...
I don't think I even documented that part when I did it quite a while ago, though I did do some on the building of the crossmember...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=24785

...
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:06 PM   #168
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Very nice. Any other pics of your Harvester? Not sure how this thread helped you as everything I showed was with using the cage on the rear. But I'm glad to see you pulled it off. Had I had your gears..... I would have gone with it too. Although I still want a bit higher. The later year XJ12's have 3.55's. Maybe one will turn up.
Everyone that contributed to your thead that showed how to uncage one. I would like to find some 370 gears, but with the torque the 400 SBC makes I think I'll be OK...
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:31 PM   #169
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

370 gear are more than good-----I have 325s and can break them loose up to 45mph with a 350 horse running a 700 Edlelbrock -465 lift cam and posi 9"
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:37 PM   #170
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I hope you're going to put some fish plates on that chassis graft
Definitely...... I learned chassis fab at a Sprint Car shop, fixing wrecks. We always slug any tubing we cut out. The frame is slugged with pieces of 2x4 where it's cut, there are still a bunch of gussets that need welded on. This is the second time we back halfed it, the first time was 20,000 miles and hundreds of passes at the strip ago. I also learned alot in the past 6 years....
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:47 PM   #171
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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I don't think I even documented that part when I did it quite a while ago, though I did do some on the building of the crossmember...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=24785

...
Your thread is why it's uncaged...We tried to weld the whole cage in but the truck is too light in the ass, the half shaft where way angled. I didn't want to buy shocks so we moved the mounts to make the half shaft geometry correct. The other set of shock mounts lowers it an inch and softens up the spring rate some.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:59 PM   #172
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Are you going to run a brace (tubing with clevis or similar) from the front of the lower control arm attachment points up to the frame or another crossmember? The torque is all at the center section under acceleration or braking and will be trying to twist the center section out of that upper mount.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:18 PM   #173
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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Are you going to run a brace (tubing with clevis or similar) from the front of the lower control arm attachment points up to the frame or another crossmember? The torque is all at the center section under acceleration or braking and will be trying to twist the center section out of that upper mount.
The 2nd photo shows one of the radius rods and cross member. 5/8" steel rod ends on 1 and 1/4 rods...
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:19 PM   #174
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

[QUOTE=ELpolacko;6257372]Not stirring the pot on purpose, but:

Just measured my 1969 XJ rear for included pinion angle. There is none. The dog bone pivot plane is parallel to the pinion at both the attachment point and at the hub carrier.

Three degrees of pinion up would put three degrees of positive caster into the IRS.

Just to let everyone know, there is a bracket that bolts onto the center section and the control arms are mounted to it. There are 2 different mounts available, one that mounts the control arm pivots at the same angle as the pinion and one that has the control arms at about a 3 degree angle compared to the pinion. Found this out when putting a Jag rear in our '37 many years ago.
Pretty sure the 3 degree mounts are from an XKE--but they are out there and might help someone.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:27 PM   #175
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

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The 2nd photo shows one of the radius rods and cross member. 5/8" steel rod ends on 1 and 1/4 rods...

I mean from the gear housing like in this picture that dakota.za posted. "Pinion struts" These are what keep the pinion from trying to twist the whole assembly out of the frame under acceleration or braking.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:29 PM   #176
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I took the 3 degrees out with the cross member and ran everything parallel with the ground. I hope that's what you mean.....
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:31 PM   #177
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I see what your saying, Thanks
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:06 PM   #178
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Thanks for the inspiration.


My version. 48 International KB3

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Old 06-23-2012, 12:39 PM   #179
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Hey Packrider, any other photos? Are you just using 2 of the 4 coilovers? And did you change the springs on the two you are using? I'd love to see more pics of your truck. Did you use the Jag IFS as well?
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:46 PM   #180
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Yea I'm using just 2. I changed out the springs with a set I had left over from a Trike project. I think they were for a honda. Basic set. Adjustable though. Myself and my soninlaw compress them less than an inch. Should be good for the weight of the bed. I posted a link to photobucket on another of your threads. I cant get to it right now though. Its on oldihc too. I used the front too. Super easy. I'm glad you did it first. It looked from your lice the mounts lined up awesome. Back mounted to the frame directly with the factory mounts and a couple of brackets on the front and it looks like it should be there.
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Old 06-26-2012, 10:46 PM   #181
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

What's the gear ratio in that diff?
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:20 PM   #182
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

3.31 if my calculations are right.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:57 AM   #183
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

That's not bad. The one I have is 2.82 It's why I'm not using it yet. I'm gonna hang onto it and when I come across either an XJ12 3.55 gear set or just get it re geared.... I will put it in then.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:56 PM   #184
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Here are acouple more photos now that we're a little further...







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Old 07-25-2012, 12:00 AM   #185
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester







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Last edited by cafone; 07-25-2012 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 02:09 AM   #186
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I mounted a jag rear in my buddies 327 powered 39 plymouth coop.. I took out the springs both sides and made a steel spacer bar to bolt in between the top and bottom shock mounts to hold the drive shafts (half shafts) parallel with the ground.. We set the frame onto the suspension unit and welded the jag cage in to the chassis (after repairing cracks in the cage) with a pinion angle of approx 3-5 degrees. This way we could see where the front arm mounts had to be located.. It rides like a dream.

Last edited by inthweedz; 07-25-2012 at 02:15 AM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:54 AM   #187
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Thanks for the pics.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:16 PM   #188
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

dude that grille change is killer! great pic's of the jag rear swap.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:11 AM   #189
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Quote:
Originally Posted by 55 dude View Post
dude that grille change is killer! great pic's of the jag rear swap.

X2 for sure!!!
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Old 08-25-2012, 09:31 AM   #190
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Thanks....

The rear frame section finished.









BTW Car Quest has rotors, calipers (with no core charge) and pads for under 300 bucks...
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Last edited by cafone; 08-25-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:00 AM   #191
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Swwet. It look like its coming along nicely
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Old 08-25-2012, 05:39 PM   #192
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Nice looking job there sir
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Old 08-27-2012, 01:13 AM   #193
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

I noticed you relief'd the outside of the frame above the axles. Was the Hub Carrier hitting the frame?
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:37 AM   #194
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

The notches we used were from a coil sprung frame. They pionted out at the rear of the frame, so we cut them to straighten them out to pinch the new back section a bit....
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:52 PM   #195
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Pinion angle is what is holding me up. The XJ rear is set up with no angle. If you raise the pinion to say 3-5 degrees, then the LCA's are also angled. The wheels will move rearward with the suspension. What I have found is that the XKE model Jag and the 3.8S Jag is setup a little different. The differential side brackets that hold the LCA's to the differential and angled, unlike the XJ side brackets that are not. The XKE side brackets are angled 6 degrees and the 3.8S brackets are 3 degrees.
So say with the 3.8S brackets installed, you can have your pinion set to 3 degrees but your LCA's will remain level. To me, this is the answer if I can actually locate a set.
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:32 PM   #196
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Pinion up and more "Caster" at the hub will benefit you by increasing the anti-squat.
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:49 PM   #197
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Quote:
Originally Posted by ELpolacko View Post
Pinion up and more "Caster" at the hub will benefit you by increasing the anti-squat.
Thanks for chiming in. So I should go ahead and raise the pinion up 3 degrees and be good with the LCA tilted back with positive caster? I thought the Jag XJ suspension came from the factory with no caster?
If it's ok..... sure makes the install a whole lot easier!!!
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Old 09-08-2012, 06:43 PM   #198
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Check this out: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=36015

Caster on the rear is almost irrelevant as it's not a steering wheel. (it can be however) In the case of the Jag, there isn't much to the geometry so you may as well take advantage what few things you can change. More anti-squat is a good thing in this case.
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Old 09-08-2012, 09:00 PM   #199
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Holy crap, finally something I can chime in on without being totally out of my league around here!

'Cause I'm a Jag guy and I have a couple of XJ-Ss.

I can't help you on the custom fab stuff but I might be able to clarify a couple things:

Jag used BOTH a Salisbury and a Dana 44. The D44 was used 82-84 but the cutoff dates go by serial number. The two rears are nearly identical. The tipoff will be the brake caliper mounting bolts on a Dana rear have the heads pointing towards the outside, the Salisbury has the caliper mount bolts pointing in towards the diff.

The Dana rears have an access hole in the rotor to get to these bolts. The Salisbury rears have no access hole, BUT, all aftermarket replacement rotors have the holes since the rotors are identical in every other way, so you can't use that for ID since the rotors were probably replaced at some point. The Salisbury rears are generally regarded as being a bit stronger, but again, they're pretty much identical so there's no real strong argument one way or the other.

ALWAYS replace the calipers and rotors before you put the rear in the car because it's nearly impossible after!

All sedans had open diffs. All XJ-Ss had limited slips, Posi-Tracs I believe. All XJ-Ss had 2.82 or a slightly lower but equally pathetic gear ratio (they can do 160 but it takes a week to get there). No idea on the sedan variants.

When you set up pinion angles if you're using a normal single-u-joint shaft you should have the pinion angle equal to the tranny output angle. If you're using a double cardan (CV) all your angle should be taken up by the double-jointed end and your pinion angle and driveshaft should be in a straight line. On a solid axle setup the pinion should be about 1 degree down from the driveshaft to compensate for axle wrap.

I'm loving this thread because I want to build a T-bucket out of my XJ-S parts car, IRS, IFS and V12. Still can't wait to see how you guys work the IFS into things, that's going to be WAY more complicated than sticking the cage in there.

D
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Old 09-08-2012, 09:46 PM   #200
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Wondering if anyone has redrilled the Jag for other patterns? (Say 5on5)

Great info.....Thanks!
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Old 09-08-2012, 09:53 PM   #201
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Default Re: Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

The Jag front is far easier to install. Even when you rubber mount it like it came in the Jag. The rear would be even easier if cage mounting.
Here's the install of mine as well as bagging it.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...=451036&page=6
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:32 AM   #202
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