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Old 01-14-2011, 11:22 AM   #1
sixbangr
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Default selling cars without a dealer license

I was set to go pick up a car on Sunday from a guy in Wyoming. He is just a car guy trying to get rid of some toys so he can move. He had a visit from an Investigator from The Dept of Trans. Said he sold 3 cars last month and he is done for a year. Two of the cars were sold to a junk dealer. Any way around this?
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:26 AM   #2
SinastirSpeedShop
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I know here is Alabama your allowed 5 cars per year before you have to get a license. I know the license here was alittle pricey..

I guess he could give it to a family member. They would have to pay the gift tax and they sell it to you.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:26 AM   #3
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Sounds like horseshit to me!
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:33 AM   #4
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Here in Massachusetts you can sell 5 a year before you need a license.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I believe it is five in Washington also. I was told the license is expensive, and that you must have a legitimate place of business-street business sign, exposure, properly zoned, etc. not a housing development, or residential area.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:38 AM   #6
sixbangr
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I called Wyoming a few minutes ago. You can only sell 2 per year. He only has a few months be for he has to move. He has several cars that need to go . He is not selling at a profit.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Buy a trailer from him that just happens to have a car parked on it....
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:41 AM   #8
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I bet there are plenty of people these days selling off thier car collections to keep the house. there has to be some sort of appeals process so a guy can sell his own cars that he has owned for several years.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:41 AM   #9
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Looks like there isn't a legal way to get around it.
Having him gift it to someone else and then them sell it to you is probably the only option, unless you want to buy it and not file on it until next year.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:42 AM   #10
sgnova72
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Does he have any close imediate family, ie kids, parents. They may have a gift form at rmv. He could transfer to them and then they sell remaining cars. I have done that a couple times here in ma, though you do have to pay for title, but no sales tax.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:43 AM   #11
ONE CRUSTY ONE
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Title in your name? If not have the wife or your children sell the car. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Be creative!
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:46 AM   #12
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Yeah! I sell at least 5-6 cars a year. I just never register them, just title them. Who knows about other states. Ours is 8 cars in a year in Missouri. I just try to keep my name out of everything legally associated, haha. Fly under the radar or pay the price.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:50 AM   #13
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Yeah I think 2 cars a year is BS, here in TX it is 5 per year. But there is always away to get around it
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:51 AM   #14
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I wish the government would leave us car people alone.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:53 AM   #15
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Yes be creative. Maybe he just happened to start "storing" them somewhere else!
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:53 AM   #16
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

If I buy a car or truck to sale I never put them in my name just have the previous owner to sign the title. In S.C. if you have dealer lisence you have to sale 10 cars per dealer tag you have.
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:54 AM   #17
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Quote:
Originally Posted by shainerman View Post
Yeah! I sell at least 5-6 cars a year. I just never register them, just title them. Who knows about other states. Ours is 8 cars in a year in Missouri. I just try to keep my name out of everything legally associated, haha. Fly under the radar or pay the price.
That was what I was doing in NY some years back, but I hit the threshold one year (maybe 3 or 4...) and got a letter from DMV that I should register as a dealer under their "itinerate vehicle collector" guidelines. I almost did it, since it was so easy to do.

All I had to do was register, keep a file drawer for my paperwork and hang a sign outside my garage. At the time it was a small sign, like "XYZ Auto Sales" and that would keep them happy.

It was funny, at the time I did have a NY State dealer plate that I found by the side of the road. I used that for years until they changed the plate colors.

Bob
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

The whole "car limit" thing is BULLSHIT!! As long as that car is in your name TAXES AND REGISTRATIONS PAID, no form of gov't can stop you from selling them. Do you need a license to sell stamps? Beanie Babies? Coins? No. It's an attempt by local authorities to legally extort funds from the general public. It takes a bit of courage to take them on but it's true. We lived in Allen PK, MI back in my youth. Dad and I bought and sold cars all the time. Some jealous neighbor tried to turn us in for our hobby. They lost. If you own them outright, all yours, no liens, do as you please. Dealers are required to collect sales tax. That's it. Dealers can buy w/out paying sales tax. That's also what they're for. Private collectors are not a buisness. They're enthusiasts who like their cars and can swap em around at their will.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:02 PM   #19
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

In Wisconsin it is 5 cars. If I am planning on flipping a car I usually don't title it in my name. I know I've come pretty close to the 5 car limit in a year. If the limit was 2 cars I'd be in trouble every year Folks in Wyoming must not sell their cars that often
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Damn beaurocrats
So sick of gooberment up our asses... How long untill you have to have a license to f'ing breath in more than your alloted share of oxygen?
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:13 PM   #21
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

If you go to Wyoming and hand this guy cash and take the car back to KS...who's going to stop you? If you aren't registering the vehicle in WY then WY should butt out.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:19 PM   #22
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

This is not a new law been like this for a number of years .I remember a buddy getting a letter from missouri 30 years ago.RLS
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

It would be nice if there was an exemption for old cars, a lot of collectors sell off parts of their collection and get different stuff all the time, I know I do it, I'm not trying to be a dealer, it's just kinda part of the fun of the hobby to get new and different cars.

At the same time though, I don't want my neighbors having a pile of Taurus's parked on his lawn for sale all year round, so I can see where that would be a problem.

The laws are in place to keep shady dealers from pawning off a bunch of junk and then leaving, moving around a lot without any accountability, which I can see where that would be a problem, but the old car hobby is totally separate from that kind of stuff, and it'd be nice if the state would recognize that.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:22 PM   #24
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

So if you get the dealers license, do you get to go to the dealers window at the dmv, vin verification rights, buy cars at state auctions, local auctions, vehicle inspection? Could be some benefits, don't know what until ya research your state rules.
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Old 01-14-2011, 12:47 PM   #25
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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So if you get the dealers license, do you get to go to the dealers window at the dmv, vin verification rights, buy cars at state auctions, local auctions, vehicle inspection? Could be some benefits, don't know what until ya research your state rules.
yes!

There are some benefits, but there is huge responsibility.

There are three main reasons why most States limit the number of cars you can sell:

1. They want to be certain you and your neighbors are able to get along. A dealer must meet zoning restrictions and have a suitable facility before a license is issued.

2. Consumer Protection...a dealer must be bonded and insured. All vehicles sold must be inspected and all defects or deficiencies must be disclosed. All title brands must be disclosed. Any changes or alterations from OEM must be disclosed. Should there be an issue and the dealer found to have falsified information of intentionally deceived a customer, the dealer is liable. Should the dealer not be able to make ammends, the bond or insurance is drawn upon.

3. Funds...a dealer is responsible for collection of sales tax, registration, title and lien filing fees. The dealer is responsible to collect and submit to the State all fees and do so within a timely fashion.

I don't make the laws, I just try real hard to obey them. Squack all you wish on here about your displeasure for the law, but you are just preaching to the choir. If you feel strongly about your beliefs and feel you have a good arguement, contact those that make the laws, your legislators.
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Old 01-14-2011, 01:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I would have him date the title to last year since we are not that far into the new year !!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by sixbangr View Post
I was set to go pick up a car on Sunday from a guy in Wyoming. He is just a car guy trying to get rid of some toys so he can move. He had a visit from an Investigator from The Dept of Trans. Said he sold 3 cars last month and he is done for a year. Two of the cars were sold to a junk dealer. Any way around this?
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Old 01-14-2011, 01:53 PM   #27
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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I would have him date the title to last year since we are not that far into the new year !!!!
It is not done by calender year. If you sell the 1st car in June, it goes 'till next June. I did ask when i called the people at the WY dmv. I just emailed him about giving the car to his wife.Then she can sell it to me.
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Old 01-14-2011, 01:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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yes!

There are some benefits, but there is huge responsibility.

There are three main reasons why most States limit the number of cars you can sell:

1. They want to be certain you and your neighbors are able to get along. A dealer must meet zoning restrictions and have a suitable facility before a license is issued.

2. Consumer Protection...a dealer must be bonded and insured. All vehicles sold must be inspected and all defects or deficiencies must be disclosed. All title brands must be disclosed. Any changes or alterations from OEM must be disclosed. Should there be an issue and the dealer found to have falsified information of intentionally deceived a customer, the dealer is liable. Should the dealer not be able to make ammends, the bond or insurance is drawn upon.

3. Funds...a dealer is responsible for collection of sales tax, registration, title and lien filing fees. The dealer is responsible to collect and submit to the State all fees and do so within a timely fashion.

I don't make the laws, I just try real hard to obey them. Squack all you wish on here about your displeasure for the law, but you are just preaching to the choir. If you feel strongly about your beliefs and feel you have a good arguement, contact those that make the laws, your legislators.
Not much benifit to buying cars at auction. No real steals there.
Better deals can be had from private partys.
Not profitable to maintain a dealers liscence if nobody's buying cars.
As far as "inspections" go. There's alot of dealers that just check the "not ok" box the disclosure stickers to sell junk. So all having a dealers liscence does for you is it tells the buyer this guy paid the state for a liscence and everything on the window sticker is correct.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I guess we could date all the papers as 2009. So I didn't re do the title for a year.Should not be a big deal, the car was not running any way until a few days ago. Sounds good to me.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

In Fla you are allowed 6 cars before having to have a license but easy to get around,sell for cash only and write Gift in the slot on the title for amount.And take it to a different DMV office to have it changed over to your name.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:12 PM   #31
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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Originally Posted by Edelbroke View Post
As far as "inspections" go. There's alot of dealers that just check the "not ok" box the disclosure stickers to sell junk. So all having a dealers liscence does for you is it tells the buyer this guy paid the state for a liscence and everything on the window sticker is correct.
it may not be accurate to say "alot of dealers" take that path, but certainly some do. Hopefully the prospective buyers can figure that out.

On the other hand, some dealers do it right. The prospective buyer at least has a chance of making an informed decision.

It would also be unfair to suggest that a "car flipper" does not provide adequate information. I am certain many provide full disclosure.

No matter what, flipping cars on open titles is illegal. In WI, you can sell five cars per year that are titled in your name. It is still illegal to sell a car that is titled in somebody else's name.

Not that anybody on the HAMB, and especially on this thread, would ever do such a thing.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

What if you bought a whole bunch of parts that when assembled ended up all fitting the same car. Couple different bill of sales, one for a body, one for a frame and one for some supension parts.
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:18 PM   #33
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I have wanted to say this my entire life & now I can, thank God I live in Oklahoma! We have limitations but no one checks. I sell at a minimum 1 a year & some years 10 or more, no problems
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Old 01-14-2011, 02:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

He just emailed me. He has contacted a lawyer and we may have info as early as next Tuesday. The car is in his and her name. The 3 he sold, I don't know if they were or not.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:25 PM   #35
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Another way is to have the seller form a "shelf corporation/company." Seller then titles the car under the company name. You/the buyer pay the seller for the car but the company name on the title stays the same. Essentially you are "buying" the company. Legally, ownership of the car has changed, but to the state DMV ownership has not changed since the name on the title has not changed.

An additional benefit is that it saves on sales tax.
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:41 PM   #36
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

delaware is 5, delaware also has what called a wholesale dealer lic.

if the car is not roadworthy and you dont plan to get it on the road within a years time just wait to title it till then.
this is how they catch up with people selling more then 5 cars a year IF its titled in their name.
title jumpers are harder to trace, unless you got the car from someone that went over the state limit and that person points to you that you now have the car and then it goes on and on blah blah blah.
if it changes states, the state it came from gets the old title back and thats how they knew he had already sold a couple cars and thats also how they catch title washers and duplicate title BS from crooks. i would think he could get some slack seeing that the other cars were junked.
it all boils down to money for fee's and license. it also keeps tracks of crooks mainly with late model stuff
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Old 01-14-2011, 03:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Aren't you just buying "parts"?
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:07 PM   #38
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

In MN it used to be that you could transfer from father to son without any tax just a small, $5-$10 transfer fee. Might check to see if there is something like that in WY and if they have children buy it from the kids.
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:31 PM   #39
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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I believe it is five in Washington also. I was told the license is expensive, and that you must have a legitimate place of business-street business sign, exposure, properly zoned, etc. not a housing development, or residential area.
A motor vehicle dealers license in the State of Washington is 750.00
From what I can find you can sell up to four cars a year without a license but the fifth will bring up a red flag. I had a friend get a visit from the state when he was 17 years old in 1964 or 65 for selling too many cars in a year so this has been in effect for a long time.

We have a huge problem with Curbstoners here locally and most of their cars come from back street shops that buy a half dozen wrecks and weld them together to make two or three cars to stick out for sale with no inspections and often suspect work done on them. The curbstoners are the reason for the rule in the first place. One old Mall parking lot in town often has more cars with for sale signs than some legit car lots in town have on the lot.
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:31 PM   #40
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

buy it and title it later .Stay in touch with him .No law in him giving you the car is there ....They dont have to know about money do the deal in cash ............
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:40 PM   #41
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Pay the guy cash and sign a paper saying he gave you the car. A man is not dealing if he is giving his property away. This way his backside is covered.
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Old 01-14-2011, 04:45 PM   #42
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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Pay the guy cash and sign a paper saying he gave you the car. A man is not dealing if he is giving his property away. This way his backside is covered.
I offered to just that. He is a bit gun shy right now. After the lawyer talks to him next week, maybe he will be ok.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:16 PM   #43
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I was a dealer /wholesaler back in the late 90's. After one yr I dropped the dealer license and kept wholesaler for a few yrs. To be a dealer you MUST have a on-site title agent. This requires a separate bond and license. It IS all about the money. The state/county is SO afraid of not making enough on all our poor-ass dealings! Lawyers? My former partner is a lawyer and our courthouse let him tag a Lincoln for 9 YEARS with NO TITLE!!!!!!!!! peace
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:19 PM   #44
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I agree with theHIGHLANDER. I was a licensed car dealer in Illinois from 1976 thru 2009. At the same time I was a private collector and bought and sold my own cars at will. But, there were in my name, sales tax paid, etc.

For years I've heard the "urban legend" that you can only sell so many cars a year or you have to get a license.......have NEVER seen it in print. If you are "curbstoning" cars, and some one complains or you are noticed, and you are "jumping title", well yes, you can and likely will get into trouble.

I cannot believe that the fellow in Wyoming is prevented from selling as many cars as he owns PROVIDING that he legally titled them when he acquired them. If he has met that condition, it is my opinion he needs to go higher up the pay grade and draw attention to this abuse of authority or ignorance by the State 'Investigator'.

Ray
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:22 PM   #45
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

The IRS loves when people get creative.

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Originally Posted by loudpedal View Post
I wish the government would leave us car people alone.
I agree.

How in the world did this guy get an investigator so quick? Things must be slow in WY.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:34 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Hnstray View Post
For years I've heard the "urban legend" that you can only sell so many cars a year or you have to get a license.......have NEVER seen it in print. If you are "curbstoning" cars, and some one complains or you are noticed, and you are "jumping title", well yes, you can and likely will get into trouble.

Ray
This is where the "APPLAUSE" sign gets lit up. I'm constantly amazed at how many folks are like hogs led to slaughter over such things. Years ago my dear ol Dad had a deal with a local finance company and was able to buy their repos for jumbo deals. He'd clean em up, fix things here n there, title em and drive em with for sale signs. Raising 5 kids he had to be creative as to making extra dough. I remember a 62 T-bird, a 64 Belair, a 63 Ford Galaxie, a 64 Ford Country Squire, and a 57 Dodge Coronet, all in one summer. Never ever did a state official contact us. Like I said before, a nosey and jealous neighbor tried to turn us in for being "dealers" many years later. I promise you all, the neighbor AND the city LOST. We were able to politely tell them "FUCK OFF".
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:47 PM   #47
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

In Ohio-the limit is either 5 or 7-I can't remember. Any change of ownership is a "sell"-I gave a car to my daughter and it counted as a transaction. Just remember when you buy-put some cars in your wife's name or your teenaged kid's name. But amazingly any car traded in to a car dealership for a new(er) car does NOT count per my friend at the BMV. Those lobbyists did their work for the car dealers! alex
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:38 PM   #48
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Here it is in writing from the State of Missouri. If you violate this law it is the prosecuting attorneys responsiblility for action, and it's only a Class A misdemeanor. On a HAMB friendly note - Antique cars (25 years or older) are exempt. What's interesting is if you read through the double-talk, it basically says you're exempt if the titles are in your name. This directly contradicts the dealers manual. And of course, the reason for all this is contained in the very last paragraph.


301.570. 1. It shall be unlawful for any person, partnership, corporation, company or association, unless the seller is a financial institution, or is selling repossessed motor vehicles or is disposing of vehicles used and titled solely in its ordinary course of business or is a collector of antique motor vehicles, to sell or display with an intent to sell six or more motor vehicles in a calendar year, except when such motor vehicles are registered in the name of the seller, unless such person, partnership, corporation, company or association is:
(1) Licensed as a motor vehicle dealer by the department under the provisions of sections 301.550 to 301.573;
(2) Exempt from licensure as a motor vehicle dealer pursuant to subsection 4 of section 301.559;
(3) Selling commercial motor vehicles with a gross weight of at least nineteen thousand five hundred pounds, but only with respect to such commercial motor vehicles;
(4) An auctioneer, acting at the request of the owner at an auction, when such auction is not a public motor vehicle auction.
2. Any person, partnership, corporation, company or association that has reason to believe that the provisions of this section are being violated shall file a complaint with the prosecuting attorney in the county in which the violation occurred. The prosecuting attorney shall investigate the complaint and take appropriate action. 3. For the purposes of sections 301.550 to 301.573, the sale, barter, exchange, lease or rental with option to purchase of six or more motor vehicles in a calendar year by any person, partnership, corporation, company or association, whether or not the motor vehicles are owned by them, shall be prima facie evidence of intent to make a profit or gain of money and such person, partnership, corporation, company or association shall be deemed to be acting as a motor vehicle dealer without a license.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:04 PM   #49
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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Originally Posted by c-10 simplex View Post
Another way is to have the seller form a "shelf corporation/company." Seller then titles the car under the company name. You/the buyer pay the seller for the car but the company name on the title stays the same. Essentially you are "buying" the company. Legally, ownership of the car has changed, but to the state DMV ownership has not changed since the name on the title has not changed.

An additional benefit is that it saves on sales tax.
The proper term is "shell corporation" which is usually used to hide shady business practices and hide/launder money.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:16 PM   #50
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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Originally Posted by c-10 simplex View Post
Another way is to have the seller form a "shelf corporation/company." Seller then titles the car under the company name. You/the buyer pay the seller for the car but the company name on the title stays the same. Essentially you are "buying" the company. Legally, ownership of the car has changed, but to the state DMV ownership has not changed since the name on the title has not changed.

An additional benefit is that it saves on sales tax.

I am sorry, but this is a grossly misinformed opinion.........much more complicated, and expensive, and creates a whole new set of problems. Corporations are not so casually formed and when they are formed incur substantial obligations with several state agencies, not to mention the Feds.

Ray
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:35 PM   #51
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

having a licence really doesn't protect a buyer if the vehicle is sold "as-is", all it does is let the state dig deeper into your already small net after they rape you on payday. they can kiss my ass!!
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:14 PM   #52
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

OK guys, please know what is legal in your state. This is serious. You can get in a lot of trouble. I have been a register dealer here in North Carolina for 38 years and see first hand how good guys get huge fines and in some cases get arrested and jailed. The DMV does not "Mess around". FACT: Here, it is a felony to have an open title in your possession. That being a title signed by the previous owner and not transfered to a new owner (blank). It is a felony not only for dealers but individuals too. If they catch you they will charge you and it will be costly. A judge may dismiss your case but most likely not. The best you can hope for is high legal fees.

For collectors with large collections it is not a problem if you are buying several a year. You must title them in your name or business name AND NOT SELL THEM. You can buy as many as you want in a year. You just can't sell them that year. For collectors who are constantly revolving there collection it can be a problem. In our state that is considered a non complying dealership. Some are forced to get set up as a dealer. If you build a 100 car collection and sell out in a year you may get flagged and investigated but should be ok. But you can expect the IRS will check to make sure the income was reported. Don't take ANYTHING for granted. Know what your state requires AND COMPLY. Here, I think it is 5 or 7 cars. Most of the guys I know who have bought and sold cars on the side are now either dealers or have given up the part time business. I know a couple hard headed shakey guys who wish they had done one or the other.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:14 PM   #53
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Go buy the car and bring it back to Kansas, have the guy date the title to last year some time. If the guy gets any grief from the Wyoming DMV he can tell them he sold the car last year, trying to clean out some of his stuff and the new owner must not have transferred it after getting home. The only potential with this is your state might have a penalty for not transferring a title within a certain number of days . The Kansas DMV could care less how many cars a guy in Wyoming sells, as long as the titles are legit.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:45 PM   #54
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

More than once I sold tires that came with a title... I paid a guy for an eng and trans that came with a title and jeep sitting on it... Its all in how you want to work it.
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:51 PM   #55
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7...8741--,00.html

From the official website of Michigan
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:22 PM   #56
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Another question is if you are taking it to Kansas and title it there, the state of wyoming is not informed about the title transfer. It just eventually disappears from the system. In Oklahoma, registration records CAN purged after 5 years of non-register. I have had cars that had not bee tagged in 5 years been purged and then I have had cars that sat unreg'd for 15 and still in the system. You can check on the proceedures in Kansas, but he should not have any real issues if you title it in KS.

Yet another reason to not title projects until they are road ready.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:46 PM   #57
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

If the car is 1976 or older, you could buy the car with a bill of sale only, and title it fresh in KS. If the car is newer than 1949, you will have to get a VIN verification done by the Sherriff's office or KHP. If the car is 1949 or older, and the vehicle is sold inside the state of KS (wink wink), a bill of sale is all you need, and it doesn't even need to be notarized. The info would not make it back to the state of Wyoming this way, therefore the previous owner did not sell you a car. I would use the official Kansas state form for this, you can pick one up at the courthouse in St. Francis....if the treasurer knows what he or she is doing anyway.

If you title it in KS using the Wyoming title, that transfer WILL run back through the Wyoming DMV or State treasurer's office, and they WILL know that the man sold another car

I am not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV...but I titled my 1930 Model A with a bill of sale only, no VIN verification, no questions, no nothing, and I had my title in less than 2 weeks.

Last edited by Abomb; 01-15-2011 at 01:49 AM. Reason: spelling...
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Old 01-14-2011, 11:19 PM   #58
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Good call Abomb.
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:41 AM   #59
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

There's some good points made, especially Mr. Spittle's. I read the Michigan link too. I don't care about it. The idea behind it is just what it says, curbstoning. It's unconstitutional for a gov't agency to have a hand your titled property and it's dispositions that you PERSONALLY establish. No, I'm not a lawer either. Once titled property is "TAX PAID" most every form of gov't is done with it. Some states wanna fuck you over if it's in restoration or storage and try to take it from you. Also uncostitutional and a violation of one's civil rights. If you create a disturbance with your activities that's where the laws basically begin and end. There are protections for collectors as well. In the end it's human beings in charge and they bring with them all of the frailties and ignorance they practice in their own lives. Knowing that, proceed with caution but stand up for yourself.

Here's one for ya. I own 8 titled vehicles. I'm in severe medical distress and I have to liquidate my fleet. Do I need to be a dealer to sell MY property for funds to save my life? Do I need to go to the the expense and waiting period of becoming a dealer so the the state can have their end? Are they going to fine and jail me because I got sick and had to liquidate? I'll bet not. I know a collector who had over 75 cars, maybe more. Same scenario. No problems liquidating them. I knew another collector who'd bought and sold maybe 8 cars in one year getting his collection where he wanted it. Nobody ever bothered him either. The reasons were a proper paper trail and TAXES PAID. That's all they want.
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:51 AM   #60
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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Originally Posted by 66L-79 View Post
If I buy a car or truck to sale I never put them in my name just have the previous owner to sign the title. In S.C. if you have dealer lisence you have to sale 10 cars per dealer tag you have.
Here let me adjust that target for you--- maybe no one has seen it yet or better yet how about spot lighting yourself!! In Wi the fine is 500 for each title you FLOAT minimum!! Thats why I have a license.......In the long run it costs a lot not to.. Our government at work wow do you feel safer ?
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:05 AM   #61
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

If he just started selling off cars and didn't sell any last year; ackdate the bill of sale on the next 2 he sells to 12/31/10. The buyer should be able to transfer title this month w/o any penalties in most ststes.
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:12 AM   #62
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

in Florida 3 is the limit if you regester them
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:17 AM   #63
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

when i sold 8 carc in 2001 they got intoutch by letter
i replyed i was in finantual destress
they let me go

i think if uou contact them and tell them the situation it may go through
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:23 AM   #64
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

just another govt ploy to gouge extra cash out of the public.... seems ok since they spend the rest of our cash so responsibly.... thus concludes our lesson on sarcasm for the day.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:48 AM   #65
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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Originally Posted by rustrodder View Post
In Ohio-the limit is either 5 or 7-I can't remember. Any change of ownership is a "sell"-I gave a car to my daughter and it counted as a transaction. Just remember when you buy-put some cars in your wife's name or your teenaged kid's name. But amazingly any car traded in to a car dealership for a new(er) car does NOT count per my friend at the BMV. Those lobbyists did their work for the car dealers! alex
I used to sell 20 or so cars a year in Ohio. Your 5th sale made you a defacto dealer-all the responsibilities (liability, records keeping, etc.), with none of the advantages (sales tax exempt purchases, dealer tags, etc.). If a dealer was found guilty of something fraudulent (title jumping, odometer tampering, deceptive advertising), he could be fined treble damages by the court. I don't recommend playing any games with auto titles and the DMV in Ohio. The Ohio State Patrol does have an investigator, but they never bothered me. You can put your cars in a family member's name, but if you've done repairs, or could be construed to have known of some defect or improper repair that leads to litigation, that person will then be involved.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:54 AM   #66
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Oregon has no sales tax, but still limits the number that a non licensed person can sell. But you can't buy a dealers license without a comercial sales location. double BS. I don't know what fines they could levy. it seems that after cited is the time to go to court.

years ago I was charged with a fine without being cited. I went in and demanded a citation so I could go to court on the issue. they refused to cite me and the whole thing just disappeared. didn't cost me but I'm still pissed
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:01 PM   #67
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Any vehicle I sell, I link into our states DMV licensing and report the sale immediately..reason is two fold.
1. It is the law to report the sale within 10 days.
2. It protects your ass (since the car is still technically yours), therefore potentially accruing parking fines, accidents, against it.

If I am the seller, the buyer plays by my rules.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:06 PM   #68
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

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I believe it is five in Washington also. I was told the license is expensive, and that you must have a legitimate place of business-street business sign, exposure, properly zoned, etc. not a housing development, or residential area.
Ya man I have had this happen to me. Its a tricky game and almost impossible to play buy the rules in this state.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:15 PM   #69
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

I have a friend and a fellow HAMBER who has about 30 cars all runners all in his name. A guy from the county came by and told him he has too many cars. So he started selling them off one at a time. Then came the catch 22 of how many you can sell in a year. Damed if ya do damed if ya don't . They try to kill the Car hoarders from all angles.



I find myself not putting my projects in my name till Im sure of the direction I am going in with them. That way they cant tell what I have or have sold.
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:42 PM   #70
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Default Re: selling cars without a dealer license

Hello all,

I don't post much but this topic really irks my nerves from personal experience and I wish to share some valuable information with other fellow OHIOans about this.

OHIO takes this 'car selling' without a dealers license very serious and it can go on your record as a misdemeanor ! There is NO limit as to how many cars you can buy .I collect old cars and have bought 20+ a year now for several years. But god forbid when you go to sell them they will get you if you pass their allowable number !

They will make you pay tax on the KBB/NADA value of that classic car, not what you stated as the sale price, or even on the bill of sale ! You will have to pay tax on the value of what THEY say you sold it for, for each car within that 12 month period. Only if you reach the limit. If you are under it you are OK.

TITLE TRANSFERS = a sale. Gift, giving to a spouse, family member, even selling to the junkyard is a title transfer. Any time that title transfers out of your name counts as one. If you have a 14 ft boat with a title, fitted with an outboard motor with it's own title, and the trailer it sits on with it's own title - that is 3 transfers right there.

WATCH what you do. Just like someone else said earlier in this thread it is like preaching to the choir when trying to tell them you sold them at a loss, for financial reasons, or storage reasons. They won't care.

I am stuck with a slew of cars I want to sell because I've lost my storage. All garages, barns, storage places are full even cars in the house.. no room for others and no interest..but have to WAIT to sell them! I can't even send them to a junkyard where the titles will be issued a CERTIFICATE OF DESTRUCTION because it will count as a transfer out of my name. (not that I would dare send a car to the junkyard) I am not even selling for profit, I don't sell for profit. Every car I own is in my name for reason that I collect, I never planned on selling or having to sell them. I just have no place to put them and am forced to sell at a loss. But have to wait due to this law!

On a different page - make sure when you sell a car, sign over the title ..try to have the person put it in their name immediately. Reason being.. go down to your BMV ask them for a print out of all of the vehicles titled to you.. Scan through and mark off the ones you currently own, then focus on the ones you no longer own - My printout reads that I have 17 vehicles I don't even own anymore that are still in my name. After I signed them off and witnessed/stamped by a present notary ! YEARS later.

Becareful what you do. Always stay one step ahead, write everything down. Write down phone numbers of the people you sold the vehicles to incase you are checked and need to contact them. I am 25 years old and I've been bit in the ass so many times.
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