Buick Nailhead Starter Solenoid Interchangeability?

Hey guys,

I have a quick question for the Nailhead gurus. I have a 1957 Buick with the 364 Nailhead. It has the old-style starter solenoid that's wired with the generator, to automatically disengage when the car starts.

I'm running a different wiring set-up that does not incorporate the wires to send the signal from the generator to the solenoid to shut off.

I was wondering if the newer bendix-style starter solenoid found on the 401 Nailhead would work on my 364.

It's maybe a longshot, but if that would work, it would save me a lot of trouble.

If a later Nailhead solenoid won't work, what are my other options?

If worse comes to worse I'll just have to wire in the full circuit to get my current solenoid to work for me, but I would prefer a different set-up.

Thanks ahead of time,
Strange

 

That also has a vacuum starter switch on the carb that energizes the solenoid when the gas pedal is pushed and cuts the current to the starter when it senses vacuum after the engine starts. The generator circuit is a fail safe if the vacuum switch does not turn off the solenoid.

 

I really want to know what all the guys who have Nailheads in hot rods do. Because I know they don't run generators. What's the secret?

 

"They" don't ???????????

I have a stock '63 Buick generator on the ''63 401 that's in my '55 Special.

 

my 55 Buick 264 inch nailhead has a GM one wire.....I know but it was cheaper than finding a generator

 

I'm talking about cars with no hoods.

 

Does your '63 have the old-style starter solenoid like the one on the 364, or the new bendix-style. I had a '63 Buick with a 401 also, and it was the newer style, but my car also had an alternator.

Are you using the OEM harness?

"They": Guys with 322's, etc. in hot rods like Model A's and stuff, but for all constructive purposes, guys who have the earlier motors (364 and earlier!) who do not use the full Buick harness for the engine.

 

I have a 57 364 in my 36 chev. pickup with alternator. I used a 65-66 400 sp trans and also used that starter. If you're going to use the stock tranny I'm not sure if you can use the newer starter. Hope this bump helps.

 

I might switch to an alternator down the road, but right now I'm looking to utilize the parts I already have.

Again, for now, I'm using the Dynaflow.

I looked at some Buick Nailhead starters from the '60s on eBay last night, and I'm not sure if the starters are exactly the same, I was curious as to whether I could take just the solenoid from the newer ones.

 

I'm using the original, stock '55 harness. I didn't have to make any changes to the wiring. I removed the old 264 engine (with stock starter & solenoid) and transmission, fabbed new motor mounts and installed a rebuilt 1963 401" with the 401" stock starter & solenoid.

 

I have all of the stuff to do that, the reason I'm asking is because I didn't really want to retain the "push gas to start" set-up, as I'd rather have a push-button.

You said your '63 401 had a generator? That's weird because I was under the impression GM went to alternators in their cars for '63. Maybe it was an option?

 

You can wire up the nailhead starter like any other starter but in a Buick that came with the gas pedal starter originally, you have to change the the ignition key switch to one that has a start and run position on it. The stock Buick ones only have a run position. I think if you run a wire from the start terminal on a new key switch and then to S terminal on the solenoid it should work. Another way to do it would be to keep the original key switch and run the 12 volt source to a starter button placed somewhere convenient and then to S terminal on the starter solenoid. Hope this helps, Brian

 

"You said your '63 401 had a generator? That's weird because I was under the impression GM went to alternators in their cars for '63. Maybe it was an option?"
Oooops! Shouldn't trust my memory.

I checked my notes and you're correct. The Delcotron alternator was first used in 1963. My 401 is a 1963 engine, but the generator is a 1959 unit and came on the engine when I bought it.

My apologies to you & Strange Agent - Sorry for misleading you, it wasn't intentional.

The starter & solenoid are '63 parts.

 

Yeah, I already have a starter button in place and have started the motor. It just won't disengage the starter at this point. Which is why I'm asking about different solenoid options.

For the time being, I guess I'll just put the full harness on.

Thanks for the input though.

Glad to know I'm not crazy. Not a problem, by the way.

I'm wondering if the solenoids are all interchangeable. The starters appear to be the same, though I've seen conflicting evidence.

 

I believe the 455 solenoid will interchange, if i remember correctly, I gutted a 364 starter for the solenoid for my 455.

Don't quote me on that!

 

Are you sure that the only wire you have connected to the S terminal of the solenoid on the starter, is the 12 volt power wire from your starter button? From what I can see from the wiring diagram I posted, nothing should keep the solenoid energized if the power to the S terminal on the solenoid is cut off. Disconnect the solenoid in the middle of the wiring diagram and the S terminal I am talking about is on the solenoid on the starter. If you make the changes like the diagram in this post, I honestly cannot see how the starter would continue to run once you released the starter button. Unless the starter solenoid is bad. Note that I have kept the neutral safety switch in the circuit. Good luck and let me know if this works for you, Brian

 

If you could find that out, you'd be a life-saver.

I'm assuming that you're thinking about bendix-style starter solenoids, like I was. Here are a few excerpts from the 1957 Buick Chassis Service Manual that I hope will shed some light on the subject:

The Buick cranking system permits the engine to be cranked by turning the ignition switch on and depressing the accelerator pedal. While accelerator pedal is depressed the cranking motor continues operation until the engine starts running on its own power, then the cranking motor circuit is automatically opened and the motor is disengaged from the flywheel ring gear.

...

When the ignition switch is turned on and the accelerator pedal is depressed to open the throttle valve in carburetor, the throttle shaft actuates the carburetor starter switch to close the switch contacts.

...

Closing of the ignition, carburetor starter, and neutral safety switches permits battery current to flow through the magnet windings of the solenoid switch relay and through the field windings of the generator to ground. ... Flow of current through the relay windings magnetizes the core which pulls the relay armature down to close the relay contacts. Battery current then flows through the "pull in" and "hold in" coils of the solenoid, magnetizing the solenoid. The plunger is pulled into the solenoid so that it operates the shift lever to move the drive pinion into engagement with flywheel ring gear and then closes the solenoid switch contacts.

The closing of the solenoid switch contacts causes the motor to crank the engine and also cuts out the "pull-in" coil of the solenoid, the magnetic pull of the "hold-in" being sufficient to hold the pinion in mesh after the shifting has been performed. This reduces the current consumed by the solenoid while the cranking motor is operating.

As soon as the engine starts running, the generator output voltage opposes the flow of current through the solenoid switch relay and generator windings, consequently the relay circuit ground connection is blocked and the circuit is opened. This demagnetizes the relay core and permits the relay contacts to open and break the solenoid circuit so that the solenoid is also demagnetized.

A return spring then actuates the shift lever to retract the solenoid plunger, which permits another spring to open the solenoid switch contacts. At the same time, the shift lever disengages the drive pinion from the flywheel ring gear.

That's probably more than you wanted to know, but welcome to '50s Buick Voodoo. The bane of my existence.

 

When I bought my 56 Buick the previous owner had already installed a starter button. I'm pretty sure it's the stock starter. I haven't had any issues with it in the six years I've owned it. The carb is an after market 4 barrel but i don't know if that would make a difference in the set up.

 

Do you know if it is the stock '56 solenoid as well?

 

And vacuum pulls the little inline check ball up out of the way so that the carb throttle shaft cannot engage the starter solenoid.

Rube Goldberg would be proud.

 

The 61-66 block will take the 64-66 starter as is but the 57-60 block will need drilling and tapping and some blocks require one ear of the starter to be moved.

You need the Telesco mini starter-
http://www.centervilleautorepair.com/buickparts2.html

 

I used all Chevy parts in my Buick(1958) starter including the solenoid.

 

I wonder if he ever worked for GM?

I'm wondering if I can take just the solenoid from a '61 or later starter?

I'll rewire my harness before I spend $250+ for a part that will require modification to fit my application.

Would you happen to remember the year and model? And how did your starter system operate?

 

The gear reductions are nice, especially if you have decent compression. I am not sure if you can swap the solenoid, but I can find out.

 

You should email Russell Martin, he is the top expert in nailheads.
[email protected]
He will be able to answer any question you have.

 

Thanks for all the help, I'll get in touch with him.