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Old 11-06-2010, 10:00 AM   #21
owen_64
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Well the thing is, I don't have enough money to go heads-up racing and be competitive. So I'm just going to build it to put on a show. As for the NE classes they actually do allow nitromethane. They don't list a maximum percentage either. I'm actually looking to basically use someone's whole set up, if someone is willing to let that information go.
Thanks,
Randy
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:15 AM   #22
davidwilson
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

http://www.racingjunk.com/profile/223797

this guy runs division races - lives in lubbock tx - he may need some volunteer help - check with him
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:18 AM   #23
Gasser1961
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

I've looked into running a true JR car in todays world of NHRA. It's just not able to be done. In order to meet the SFI and NHRA reqs your looking at around $30,000 to do it right and be safe. I know there are guys here who will build anything out of old crap but at around 200 mph with a nitro engine in front of you thats not smart. There are guys out West here running injected sbc on fuel with a good pg. The bottom line is NITRO = LOTS OF MONEY
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:38 AM   #24
Roger O'Dell
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

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Originally Posted by Gasser1961 View Post
I've looked into running a true JR car in todays world of NHRA. It's just not able to be done. In order to meet the SFI and NHRA reqs your looking at around $30,000 to do it right and be safe. I know there are guys here who will build anything out of old crap but at around 200 mph with a nitro engine in front of you thats not smart. There are guys out West here running injected sbc on fuel with a good pg. The bottom line is NITRO = LOTS OF MONEY
I read all the answers to this guys answer, and I think it may be the best. I wasn't going to respond, but it got the best of me. To be competive it will cost you a lot of money. Go to the races and try to form friendships with some of the racers. Most of them are on limited budgets and will welcome help at away from home tracks. Good Luck It can be the greatest of times and the most depressing. It goes with winning and loseing. Roger
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:51 AM   #25
Rex Schimmer
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

I think that the origin of the "Junior Fuel" class was from the LIONS drag strip in Long Beach back in the early to mid 60s. The basic rule was 310 cu. in. max every thing else was open. The 310 engines were ran pretty much on 98% and high gear only. The combo worked because the tires would spin, and smoke, and this would keep the engine on power and most of the cars didn't weigh over 900 pounds. With todays tires and drag strips the tires don't spin so the clutch has to slip. It was not uncommon to see 25-30 Jr. fuelers at LIONS on a good night and they would run in the 7s at right at around 200. Between LIONS, Irwindale, San Fernando, Fontana and Orange County there was always a good Jr. Fuel show some place. In the late 60s they started working with slipper clutches, pretty crude and tire technology and drag strip preparation got better and they went to two speed trannys. Once LIONS closed I think Jr. Fuel started to fade away. Sure were fun to watch!

Rex
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Old 11-06-2010, 01:57 PM   #26
moparsled
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

I don't mean to sidetrack the thread, but I wonder.......

each time a "nostalgia dragster on a modern track" question comes up, it pretty much always goes back to "ya can't run the old setups the old way because of track and tire tech changes"

competetiveness aside, how far off would a nostalgia junior fueler be from "the day" by simply avoiding a burnout (they didn't do 'em back then anyway) and running some fairly hard piecrusts like Hursts? If the thing grabs too much, run a skinnier tire, or add pressure?

or, do ya just shitcan ALL the old stuff and go to modern slicks, burnouts, and Powerglides?
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Old 11-06-2010, 03:32 PM   #27
exwestracer
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
Howdy Randy:
Nice to hear what your up to..
FWIW talking to Spud Miller would do you some good.

http://www.onehotchilipepper.com/

Runs a SB on the Can. has a great service also for Mags,injection, parts..

Luke
Sounds like the OP could do a lot worse than following Spud's formula...

Two things from the OHCP site that might help Randy's understanding of all this trans/clutch stuff... Spud runs a Powerglide, and his new fuel tune is killing it, and is going to keep killing it... He also mentioned tire shake, which is the main reason to run a clutch. If the motor bogs at the hit (or just doesn't have enough power), the car won't get "up on the tires". It will "trip" over the rear tires, wadding them up and causing shake. On a VERY light car (old style, as noted above), the tires were too small and hard, and/or the car was too light for this to be a big problem.

A modern "heavy" FED on modern tires just can't hit the tires hard enough to slip them a little and get them turning. One solution is more power but, if you're already running the can you're pretty much out of options there... A second route would be direct drive with more rear gear, but then you're out of rpm at the big end. The other option is a trans. Low gear to get the car up on the tires, high gear to grunt the motor with a taller gear and let it make power all the way to the lights.

BTW, B&J and Lenco 2 speeds are really just a Powerglide with everything you don't need left out...
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Another question, what's a standard compression ratio for straight nitro? I read the nitro notes on the FIE website and he said he was running about 13.2 on 50% and 11 something on 75?%. While helping out an alcohol injected dragster, I was talking to someone who ran the old J/F class and ran 98% with 10 and said they should have been at 12. Anyone have any advice on this?
Thanks, Randy
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Old 11-08-2010, 06:53 AM   #29
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

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Originally Posted by owen_64 View Post
Another question, what's a standard compression ratio for straight nitro? I read the nitro notes on the FIE website and he said he was running about 13.2 on 50% and 11 something on 75?%. While helping out an alcohol injected dragster, I was talking to someone who ran the old J/F class and ran 98% with 10 and said they should have been at 12. Anyone have any advice on this?
Thanks, Randy

I own a nostalgia Top Fuel car out of the Phoenix area. We are alyways looking for sincere people who wish to help out and crew. No experience is needed just a willingness to listen and to learn.



Blow nitro cars typically run 6 to 7 compression

Comparing 6O's era jr fuelers to the modern nostalgia jr fuelers is difficult at the combo is not the same. Todays Jrs run alky

You asked about clutches.
Yes, there are pedal/slipper clutches and they are primarily used in alky combos. A few nitro guys run them but, they have not been real competitive because a ture slipper/'glide clutch makes it easier for the driver and the crew chief to control tire spin.
Either set up can be used with a Lenco type trans or with just a reverser. Using a clutch in your fast race car adds considerable expense and considerable maintenence too between rounds. That is why toru converters are so popular. Not as quick but, much less work and demand.

hope this helps you.

If anyone may be seriously interested in crewing with us here in the Phoenix area, contact me. Much of the work is off track getting the car ready.
steve@pontiacheaven.org
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:03 AM   #30
frontenginedragsters
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Randy:
Advice is best when it comes from people that have PAID for the experience.
This web site and HRE.com have people that have had experience with Jr.fuel cars.
Let me share with you my experience's and my opinions.
I was a crew guy on big show nitro funny cars in the 1990's and gained great respect for the guys I worked with that tuned nitro. [Rob Flynn, Dennis Whitestone and Tom Anderson] I also learned about attention to detail.
I own an engine machine shop so engine work on these cars was second nature.
Where I enjoyed working the most was when I was able to do the clutch.
The modern day AFT 18 lever 5 disk clutch still operates off the basic principles of the 6 lever Crowerglide.
We now run a family and friends operated modern FED.
Its a little removed from the average bracket car but we didn't build it to run Super Pro anyway.
We race a 460 FORD engine with a Crower hat injector on a tunnel ram and a Supermag V on alcohol.
The bellhousing has a 2 disk Crowerglide inside and a two speed Lenco.
It loads the engine pretty hard but its a good way to learn the Crowerglide.
This has been a great way to use the knowledge learned when crewing to apply it to my own car. We can make a pass and service the clutch and cool the motor and be ready for another run in 30 minutes.
The next step is building a new engine and run 50% nitro.
My opinion is to gain some knowledge like I did by working on someone elses car.
If that opportunity does not happen, spend more time reading on web sites and hang out at the track and ask questions.
>>>>Get to Bakersfield in March !!<<<<
When you get your own car start out with alcohol and a Crowerglide and a Lenco.
This will give you working knowledge of your parts.
It will make the transition to Nitro smoother.
In the business I'm in I see people trying to run before they can crawl and the are out of racing as quick as they got in.
Its VERY expensive to just get to the track and you want to be able to have fun and don't want to go broke on your first weekend.

This is just my opinion and I hope it helps.

Matt Shaff
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Last edited by frontenginedragsters; 11-10-2010 at 04:45 PM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:33 PM   #31
owen_64
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Thank you guys for the detailed posts. So another question, this time pertaining to a 'glide clutch. Since the clutch is centrifugal, can you disengage it from the motor. As in, when you start the motor, are you on the brakes to keep it from rolling, or what? From my understanding, there is no pedal on the crowerglide type clutches? I know the pro fuelers all run those types of clutches, but I was listening to WFO Radio and John Force was talking about how he couldnt back up first round of eliminations a few races back. I had watched the race and Mike Dunn was saying something along the lines of the idle speed to too high to engage the reverser because they do not have a pedal, while John Force himself said on the radio that the pedal had fallen off. I would like to express my gratitude to every individual who has taken time from their day to help me understand this.
Thank you,
Randy
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:02 PM   #32
tad626
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Modern day 'glides do have a clutch pedal. It really is only used to find the neutral space, when going from forward to reverse. If the idle rpm is to high, it will take away this neutral, which is why you sometimes see the car jump a little, when the driver tries to find reverse.
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Old 11-10-2010, 09:46 PM   #33
frontenginedragsters
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Randy:
There is an air gap between the disks and floaters.
Everybodys is set up alittle different but .040" is about average.
How the stall springs are set will determine when the car "creeps"
You grab the brake handle when your guys are starting the car and have the clutch depressed to the neutral position.
My opinion is first timers should have a pedal stop for the neutral position.
My engine idles at 1600 RPMs
I have my clutch set-up so it engages about 3000 RPM.
I have to rev it up a little to get it to move so the clutch pedal is not needed.
Big show blown fuel cars have it so when they let out the clutch it "tugs" the motor down about 200-300 RPMs depending on how the tuner sets it up.
That set up does not work on a low HP unit like mine.

Matt

Last edited by frontenginedragsters; 11-10-2010 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 09:59 PM   #34
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Thank you for explaining it for me. I think I have the basics of it now so I'm not completely lost when it comes to this. I apologize if I have already asked this question, but is there any good literature on these types of clutches, or is it all learned by on track experience?
Thanks,

Randy
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:20 PM   #35
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Don't take this the wrong way and I'm not trying to put down your mechanical experience or aptitude but - as others have said go put some time in helping with a fuel car learning from the bottom up before you try and do it yourself. Based on your questions you are not ready to go it alone.

Nitro is some dangerous stuff, guys with years of experience can get hurt. I could explain to you how to start an unblown fuel motor, but I would never recommend it the first few times without someone actually there that has years of experience.

I helped a guy a few years back that was an experienced mechanic, drag racer (super classes) and fabricator, was a very smart guy, bought standard late model parts, had phone help, sent the injector through the roof of his garage and sent 1 rod to the floor the first time he pulled the wires. Experience is more important the being smart.

+ you are trying to build something that there is really no "standard" tune up for. I have a lot of experience and I would have to give it a lot of thought and make a few phone calls to get close enough right away. Things like compression, timing, cam, clutch, pump, volume, etc are all open ended questions that will rely upon everything else you are doing. That motor doesn't know whether you are trying to be 'competitive' or not, if it gets unhappy it will cost you. Anything north of 50% can wipe you out any time you step on it, or even hit the trigger on the starter.

Fuel cars are an OK starter point for driving, but not for tuning. Doesn't matter how smart you are you need to learn the basics first and get experience before you try and do it yourself. This means helping out on a car, not trying to figure it all out the first year, doing the grunt work, and keeping your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut. You are not ready to give it a tune up until you not only know that it needs a glide - but why. If you go out and crew for a few years and pay attention there is no reason you couldn't try and build what you want. applekrate is the kind of place you need to start at.

My dad and uncle ran a Jr Fuel in So Cal in the late 60's and share your enthusiasm for recreating what had to be one of the coolest of all dragsters.

Good luck with your ambition to join the 'circus', my best advice is to get your CDL before anything else.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:11 PM   #36
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

The way my Top Fuel car is run

It has a pedal and a stop. Needs to be adjusted each time car is run.

When the car is on the ground and ready to fire, driver holds brake with right hand and holds in pedal with left foot.
Once it is fired up and checked out, driver gets the "OK" to burn out. He lets out the clutch by releasing the pedal just like a normal stick shift car. He stands on it through the burn out. At the end of the burn out, he pushes in the clutch pedal and stops the car. then puts it in reverse and backs up. When he gets the signal to stop, he pulls the brake lever and pushes in the clutch to stop the car. Then, puts it in forward gear. After he gets the ok, he, again, lets out the clutch will not use the clutch pedal again. He will prestage the car with the hand brake lever, then, once prestaged, switches the fuel system to the 'high' side, this lowers the idle a bit. Once on the high side, he inches the car into the stage beams with the brake lever.
As rpm increases, so does the clamping force on the clutch. At the end of the run, the driver shuts off the fuel and pulls the chute. The engine rpms slowing the car down a bit until a certain rpm and then the clutch disengages automatically.
In simple terms, think of a Crowerglide as an elaborate minibike clutch. Works the same way but, much stronger obviously and many adjustments.

My cars normal idle is 2,5OO. The clutch stall is around 2OO rpm. This stall is always checked with the motor running in the pits on the stands before going to make a run.

The 3 main things to adjust on the Crowerglide is the lash, the stall and the weight on the arms or the arms themselves in some cases.

You can also buy clutches in different 'grits' just like sand paper but, we have not gone that far just yet.
If you want literature on the Crowerglide, just call them and ask for one. They do have a basic instruction manual. It also may now be online too.
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Last edited by applekrate; 11-10-2010 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:20 AM   #37
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

Great advice from applekrate, who I know as Steve. FNG ,Owen take that mans advice , he has seen his dream in action , nobody and I mean nobody uses a 389 pontiac for a nostalgia top fuel motor except for maybe Mickey Thompson . Well shut our mouths, Steve is not BSing anyone ,he shows up with a Pontiac fueler and after some hicupps , gets it down the track and very well . Nitro will make you a very humble person. Any chance you can get to learn --do it !Spence AKA snaptoo
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:36 AM   #38
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

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Originally Posted by snap too View Post
Great advice from applekrate, who I know as Steve. FNG ,Owen take that mans advice , he has seen his dream in action , nobody and I mean nobody uses a 389 pontiac for a nostalgia top fuel motor except for maybe Mickey Thompson . Well shut our mouths, Steve is not BSing anyone ,he shows up with a Pontiac fueler and after some hicupps , gets it down the track and very well . Nitro will make you a very humble person. Any chance you can get to learn --do it !Spence AKA snaptoo

Spence,
Nice to hear from you! It has been too long. Thank you for the nice words too. We are trying as I cannot afford it and will be working on our goal to get the car in the 5s at over 24O. Been focusing on paying off a new acreage I bought and have a note on so the Fueler useage has been limited. We look forward to running a regular schedule again. For now, a few times a year.
Spence, keep in touch.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:13 PM   #39
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

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Originally Posted by 408 AA/D View Post
If I remember correctly the weight to cu. in. ratio was 3 pounds, so any cu. in was allowed, as long as you stayed within that limit. My first injected fuel car weighed 760 pounds wet with out me in it. The engine was a 327 block with a 283 crank (302) The car with me in it had to weigh 906 pounds. Any auto manufactured engine block and heads were allowed as long as you adhered to the weight to cu. in. ratio. Any engine modifications were also allowed. The class was really pretty wide open.

How was cu inches verified at the track?
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:28 PM   #40
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Default Re: Injected Nitro Dragster Question

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Originally Posted by owen_64 View Post
I though it'd benefit me to at least get some experience with nitromethane

Hook up with Applekrate to get started.
Travel is cheaper than hurting parts.

Nitro has a steep($$$$) learning curve.
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