Welcome to the THE H.A.M.B. forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

Go Back   THE H.A.M.B. > General Discussion > The Hokey Ass Message Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-25-2010, 05:13 PM   #41
38FLATTIE
Old School HAMBer
 
38FLATTIE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,453
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodiak light View Post
350 chevy will fix that

There's always one!
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 06:17 PM   #42
40FORDPU
Senior Member
 
40FORDPU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: PUGET SOUND WA
Posts: 1,545
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Good luck with your build.
__________________
"The older I get...The better I was"
online   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 06:36 PM   #43
Rocket-Boy
Newbie
 
Rocket-Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Melb Australia
Posts: 64
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

i would say do as much research as you can, sit back read up get all the info you can. i belive a hp number is not that important, what you want is a crazy flathead so build one as crazy as you can afford and you have reached your goal. you have to pick your poisen and stick to it ... it will spiral out of controll though trust me. speed equiptment is like crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodiak light View Post
350 chevy will fix that

prehaps he has more taste than to run a chev .... thats going to rub some people up the wrong way.
__________________
WANTED: 12" Ford f-250 bendix brakes Backing plates
online   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-25-2010, 06:45 PM   #44
tjm73
Old School HAMBer
 
tjm73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 3,166
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

How hard would it be to get 150-175 hp at the crank?
__________________
I'm no rocket surgeon...
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 07:32 PM   #45
rat bastad
Old School HAMBer
 
rat bastad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 4,465
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Im all for development and experimentation, but have learned the following :

i. Really ASK yourself what the REAL intended use of the car is.
ii. Ask yourself/clarify the above AGAIN.
iii. Once you have determined the above, then ask yourself how much you REALLY HAVE
to spend (allow for "screw ups" in your learning curve).
iv. Ask yourself how much power you REALLY need and how much your EGO needs? Also
ask yourself how much you want to spend upgrading your drivetrain and fuel system
to make/handle that power. Vintage parts BREAK.
v. 2 97s on a blown FH are not blow through - they are a draw through set up.


What this really is about the usage of the car.

A NA peaky/hard winding FH is not really conducive to street manners - not impossible to do of course but are you getting where I'm coming from?

As I said in my original post, build yourself a strong bottom end, run the car NA then when the $$$ allow you can safely add your blower/vintage induction.

If you were building a race engine in a light race car and the rules stipulated NA, then Id say go for it.

Its not just a matter of building the engine, its also the know how to maintain and EXTRACT all the available HP/TQ out of it that it was built to make. Im not trying to discourage you as any engine design can make decent HP/TQ and every engine has its design limitations. The FH Ford has had every trick thrown at it since 1932 and sure there are always new ways to do things but ultimately as any engineer will tell you - there ARE design limitations.

So, the best way to 250/300HP is with a roots blower if you want to stay traditional.

tjm73....150-175 is attainable with dtreetability. Do some research on the HAMB, there are heaps of threads that cover this.

Rat
__________________
"IF IT WAS'NT FOR BAD LUCK I WOULD'NT HAVE ANY LUCK AT ALL"
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 05:51 PM   #46
jaden
FNG
 
jaden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: saskatchewan canada
Posts: 35
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

hello all, i have some progress to update, i bought an engine stand and now i'll have to make a bracket to mout it to the exhauts manifold bolts rather than the bell housing, I bought a couple books (flathead V-8 by oddo and How to Build Ford Flathead horsepower by Micnicholl) and have been scouring them. Although i have not really found much mor eon getting better performance in them. So far i have gathered that its the combination of parts that must work together as a good match but how do i know what parts work well together? Im not really looking to do a bunch of testing right now. Also of interest was a picture in oddo's book about a theoretical hemi combustion chamber that Ricardo came up with, i would love to make my own. It mentioned that i would improve flow and from other papers i have read on combustion chambre design and flame front/ pressure wave propegation it would work very well. The only down fall would be the low compression ratio. I figure i could cut out the steel heads and weld in some hemi domes and maybe supercharge to compensate for the low compression ratio? what do you guys think? Also i was wondering if anyone had a guess as to how much horse power gains in a NA flathead are made from the change in the combustion chamber? i also included some pictures form last weekend when i went home. Thanks.fficeffice" />>>
jaden>>
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4869.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	207.9 KB
ID:	1146279   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4870.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	273.8 KB
ID:	1146281   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4899.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	259.4 KB
ID:	1146282  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4914.jpg
Views:	57
Size:	183.5 KB
ID:	1146283   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4931.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	265.5 KB
ID:	1146284   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4933.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	232.3 KB
ID:	1146285  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4938.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	245.1 KB
ID:	1146289  
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 05:57 PM   #47
jaden
FNG
 
jaden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: saskatchewan canada
Posts: 35
Wink Re: Flathead horsepower help

Quote:
Originally Posted by rat bastad View Post
Im all for development and experimentation, but have learned the following :

i. Really ASK yourself what the REAL intended use of the car is.
ii. Ask yourself/clarify the above AGAIN.
iii. Once you have determined the above, then ask yourself how much you REALLY HAVE
to spend (allow for "screw ups" in your learning curve).
iv. Ask yourself how much power you REALLY need and how much your EGO needs? Also
ask yourself how much you want to spend upgrading your drivetrain and fuel system
to make/handle that power. Vintage parts BREAK.
v. 2 97s on a blown FH are not blow through - they are a draw through set up.


What this really is about the usage of the car.

A NA peaky/hard winding FH is not really conducive to street manners - not impossible to do of course but are you getting where I'm coming from?

As I said in my original post, build yourself a strong bottom end, run the car NA then when the $$$ allow you can safely add your blower/vintage induction.

If you were building a race engine in a light race car and the rules stipulated NA, then Id say go for it.

Its not just a matter of building the engine, its also the know how to maintain and EXTRACT all the available HP/TQ out of it that it was built to make. Im not trying to discourage you as any engine design can make decent HP/TQ and every engine has its design limitations. The FH Ford has had every trick thrown at it since 1932 and sure there are always new ways to do things but ultimately as any engineer will tell you - there ARE design limitations.

So, the best way to 250/300HP is with a roots blower if you want to stay traditional.

tjm73....150-175 is attainable with dtreetability. Do some research on the HAMB, there are heaps of threads that cover this.

Rat
Hi Rat
Sorry for the wait, the car is intended for the ocasional cruise but will be floged at the track just as much as it is driven on the road. As to home much Hp i really need, i would be happy with 150 but my ego would need about 700 at the wheels. Its not really a question of numbers for me or even about the final product i just like to tinker and am always interested on pussing the envelope to see what i can do. How drivable is the TQ/Hp curve on the 300Hp supercharged engine VS. the Na engine with 170Hp? As always the money is not such a big deal i`ll just figure out a way to do it cheaper. Thanks for you help.
Jaden
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 06:19 PM   #48
19Fordy
Old School HAMBer
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Coral Springs, FL
Posts: 4,398
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Jaden, buy one of Mark Kirby's all alum. big cube flatty's and go from there.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 03:36 AM   #49
Shaggy
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Sultan, WA
Posts: 4,941
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Flatheads are cheap, i dont pay much over free for them anymore and if i do they sure as shit better have a merc crank, building them is expencive though.

I second what everyone else said, mabey pick up a second one and tinker on it in the corner of the shop while you enjoy the 150-175 hp of a warm flattie powered roadster, and when you get that one done, you can swap motors.

For all out there are stuff that cost more money on a flattie than most motors, all over you can find cheap sbc heads with race valves, but on a flattie they need to be cut bigger in the block, porting it more difficult and you need to know what you are doing on Lhead stuff because it cuts into compression. Stroker cranks are Real pricy, and intakes are limited.

I'm no expert, but If i was to do it on a budget and traditional, i'd take a stock aluminum manifold cut it up and weld a plate to put a 4-71 on. Lathe a SBC vertex mag to fit. Next a homemade mild relief job, merc crank and big bore. Lastly, carbs either 4 holley 2bbls or a holley 4bbl(they came out in '57)
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 09:04 AM   #50
GMC BUBBA
Old School HAMBer
 
GMC BUBBA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Speedway, IN
Posts: 2,904
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Good post with some good honest answers......
Heres our Bonneville production pickup engine. Read the build took lots of work for 181 horsepower.
Our new engine we are trying for 200 horsepower, bigger everything !! $$$$

www.gasolinealleyshops.org
__________________
Bubba's Hot Rod Shop - Linder Technical Services
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Vintage ignition systems are our specialty. If it makes spark, we can do it.
888-809-3835 TOLL FREE
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 09:17 AM   #51
BulldawgMusclecars
Member
 
BulldawgMusclecars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 510
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete1 View Post
Yea, it can be done but you won't like it because everyone you tell about it will call you a liar.
That's why I quit telling anybody anything. Let them do their own research.
The guys that write books are writing about street engines..You are talking about a street driven race engine..Big difference.
You may have enough money to do the project but you can build 3 SBC's for the same ammount.
Nostalgia costs money, how old do you want to be?

If you get it going, go out and get some timing slips from somewhere reliable and then when people call you a dipshit, flash the slips in their face...Shuts them up every time.

To all the people that tell you it can not be done, ask them how fast they have made their flathead go.
Thats the irony of it all...spending 3 times more to replicate something that people began pulling out in droves as soon as "modern" OHV V-8s began hitting the junkyards. I love tradition as much as anyone, but if you really want 300hp AND a car you can actually drive and afford to build, a flathead is the wrong choice.
You don't have to go Flathead to stay traditional...there are tons of choices that will make the HP you want, without going broke or having a finicky "race" engine that will get its doors blown off by the average soccer mom's minivan. I'd put the Flathead on a stand, detail it out, and use it for a display piece, and find another engine. No offense to guys who push the envelope with Flatheads, I still think they are very cool, but I'm more about going fast than just installing an engine for looks or someone else's version of "Tradition".
__________________
Joe Hinds
Bulldawg Musclecars
4666 S. Main Street
Acworth, GA
http://www.bulldawgmusclecars.com
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 09:29 AM   #52
porknbeaner
Alliance Member
 
porknbeaner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Raytown, MO
Posts: 25,295
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete1 View Post
Yea, it can be done but you won't like it because everyone you tell about it will call you a liar.
That's why I quit telling anybody anything. Let them do their own research.
The guys that write books are writing about street engines..You are talking about a street driven race engine..Big difference.
You may have enough money to do the project but you can build 3 SBC's for the same ammount.
Nostalgia costs money, how old do you want to be?

If you get it going, go out and get some timing slips from somewhere reliable and then when people call you a dipshit, flash the slips in their face...Shuts them up every time.

To all the people that tell you it can not be done, ask them how fast they have made their flathead go.
Actually I have built a few flatties. 300 hp is attainable but it is also like that carrot on the stick, its not a screw together motor and I wouldn't expect it running off the shelf parts.

You are going to need to do things to help it like change the rod angle [there are a couple of ways to do that], figure out a way to get plenty of mix into and out of the cylinders [major porting and relieving], lighten everything to the max, beef the lower end so that it will handle the revs that you will need to turn, a custom ground cam shaft [Isky can handle that chore for you].

If you are going to run it on the street you will want to run the deepest gear that you can find this naturally aspirated engine is not going to want to run a low RPMs.

I may want to look for one of Navarro's 4bbl intakes instead of running a brace of stromburgs. But I don't know that I can tell you when he produced his first one so it may not fit your '55 only build.

For a '55 build you do not want a back yard build you want someting that would have been built by one of the masters. Even most of the true race cars back then were not whacking out 300 ponies except on POP and they expected their engines to grenade on a regular basis.

But to answer your question there was an indy engine that had on barrel per cylinder in the later '50s so I guess that 4-2s or 6-1s and a 2 is what you are after.
__________________
If it don't make ya dirty it ain't yours

No man crosses a chasm in two jumps
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 10:53 AM   #53
HEATHEN
Old School HAMBer
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SIDNEY, NY
Posts: 7,607
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

For what it's worth, Navarro 4 bbl intakes were around in '55, so that would be "correct". As Bulldawg said, there are other traditional choices if you've got your heart set on 300 hp......a 324 Olds comes to mind.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2010, 03:04 PM   #54
jaden
FNG
 
jaden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: saskatchewan canada
Posts: 35
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Thanks everyone for posting here, i am definatly taking everything you say into consideration. I also have an update to share, i just bought an old GMC 471 blower to put on my engine. I'll post some pictures real soon, but its in pretty good shape just a couple nicks in the rotors and real dirty. I may have over paid for it i got it for 350 but around here everyone elese wanted 400 firm so i guess thats just the going rate up here. i have some more books on the way so ill have a look at them and see what else i can pick up. I have been looking but im not finding to much in the way of step by step instructions for a nice electronic set up for a blown flathead, anyone got any suggestions or links in mind? Thanks.
Jaden
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2010, 03:14 PM   #55
jaden
FNG
 
jaden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: saskatchewan canada
Posts: 35
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Quote:
Originally Posted by HEATHEN View Post
For what it's worth, Navarro 4 bbl intakes were around in '55, so that would be "correct". As Bulldawg said, there are other traditional choices if you've got your heart set on 300 hp......a 324 Olds comes to mind.
HI Heathen i know the 4 barrel would be the way to go for practicality but i just love the look of a few strombergs and i already have them, i figure 6 of them should do ontop of the blower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeaner View Post
Actually I have built a few flatties. 300 hp is attainable but it is also like that carrot on the stick, its not a screw together motor and I wouldn't expect it running off the shelf parts.

You are going to need to do things to help it like change the rod angle [there are a couple of ways to do that], figure out a way to get plenty of mix into and out of the cylinders [major porting and relieving], lighten everything to the max, beef the lower end so that it will handle the revs that you will need to turn, a custom ground cam shaft [Isky can handle that chore for you].

If you are going to run it on the street you will want to run the deepest gear that you can find this naturally aspirated engine is not going to want to run a low RPMs.

I may want to look for one of Navarro's 4bbl intakes instead of running a brace of stromburgs. But I don't know that I can tell you when he produced his first one so it may not fit your '55 only build.

For a '55 build you do not want a back yard build you want someting that would have been built by one of the masters. Even most of the true race cars back then were not whacking out 300 ponies except on POP and they expected their engines to grenade on a regular basis.

But to answer your question there was an indy engine that had on barrel per cylinder in the later '50s so I guess that 4-2s or 6-1s and a 2 is what you are after.
Hi porknbeaner, i have been looking into shortening the rod, but im not to sure what effects this will have in a blown engin any thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BulldawgMusclecars View Post
Thats the irony of it all...spending 3 times more to replicate something that people began pulling out in droves as soon as "modern" OHV V-8s began hitting the junkyards. I love tradition as much as anyone, but if you really want 300hp AND a car you can actually drive and afford to build, a flathead is the wrong choice.
You don't have to go Flathead to stay traditional...there are tons of choices that will make the HP you want, without going broke or having a finicky "race" engine that will get its doors blown off by the average soccer mom's minivan. I'd put the Flathead on a stand, detail it out, and use it for a display piece, and find another engine. No offense to guys who push the envelope with Flatheads, I still think they are very cool, but I'm more about going fast than just installing an engine for looks or someone else's version of "Tradition".
I see what your saying but im not all that interested in having another ohv engine i have them but a flathead is something i dont have. I guess i just want one of everthing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
Flatheads are cheap, i dont pay much over free for them anymore and if i do they sure as shit better have a merc crank, building them is expencive though.

I second what everyone else said, mabey pick up a second one and tinker on it in the corner of the shop while you enjoy the 150-175 hp of a warm flattie powered roadster, and when you get that one done, you can swap motors.

For all out there are stuff that cost more money on a flattie than most motors, all over you can find cheap sbc heads with race valves, but on a flattie they need to be cut bigger in the block, porting it more difficult and you need to know what you are doing on Lhead stuff because it cuts into compression. Stroker cranks are Real pricy, and intakes are limited.

I'm no expert, but If i was to do it on a budget and traditional, i'd take a stock aluminum manifold cut it up and weld a plate to put a 4-71 on. Lathe a SBC vertex mag to fit. Next a homemade mild relief job, merc crank and big bore. Lastly, carbs either 4 holley 2bbls or a holley 4bbl(they came out in '57)
Shaggy i wish i lived where you do i still find some things in farmers fields for free but most of it is ruined by now and the guys who have the useable stuff are not about to let it go for cheep or at all.
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2010, 03:31 PM   #56
rockabillybassman
Old School HAMBer
 
rockabillybassman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Napier, New Zealand
Posts: 2,761
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Pope View Post
If you build a street driven flattie that blows off a 428 'Tang, we'll be buying YOUR book!
Indeed!
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2010, 03:48 PM   #57
moefuzz
Old School HAMBer
 
moefuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Under A Clean V8
Posts: 4,896
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

You should be thinking about torque and not about horse power.

Flatheads are torque motors due to the heavy rotating mass of flywheel and crank.

It's torque that will throw you back in the seat when shifting gears.

And a 200 hp Flathead will have gobs of torque.

As others have stated, Get Joe Abbins recent book and all will be revealed.
You'll be able to make down to earth judgments on what to expect and how to accomplish it.



.




.
__________________
.. Wise men talk about ideas, ordinary men talk about things, fools talk about each other
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2010, 07:08 PM   #58
jaden
FNG
 
jaden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: saskatchewan canada
Posts: 35
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Quote:
Originally Posted by moefuzz View Post
You should be thinking about torque and not about horse power.

Flatheads are torque motors due to the heavy rotating mass of flywheel and crank.

It's torque that will throw you back in the seat when shifting gears.

And a 200 hp Flathead will have gobs of torque.

As others have stated, Get Joe Abbins recent book and all will be revealed.
You'll be able to make down to earth judgments on what to expect and how to accomplish it.
.

Finally got home for a couple days and i couldnt help myself but to stack the supercharger and a few carbs on top of the bloc to have a look see. and mofuzz i do believe horsepower is torque times rpm so with one comes the other, but i am awaiting the books you mention then i'll have a little better idea on what im doing. I have been looking into the carb adapter plates for the top of the 471 and have decided to try and make one with the sand casting process shown in the car club plaques thread(i can remember it of hand) all i need is some detailed measurements of one ( spacing between the carbs, height, width, length, and the offset at the bottom to clear the heads) to start making my buck. If anyone ahd those that would be great.



.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockabillybassman View Post
Indeed!
well i'll have a hand in building the 428 mustang so i could just sabatoge it, dose that count?
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2010, 07:42 PM   #59
bobscogin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Southeast Louisiana
Posts: 1,656
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

Quote:
Originally Posted by moefuzz View Post
It's torque that will throw you back in the seat when shifting gears.
And a 200 hp Flathead will have gobs of torque.
.
Assuming you could even get 200 hp at, say, 5000 RPM, that's 210 pounds/ft of torque. For comparison, a 230 Chevy 6 makes 215 pounds/ft at only 2000 RPM. I've owned a couple, and I don't ever recall getting thrown back in the seat.

Bob
offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2010, 07:49 PM   #60
jaden
FNG
 
jaden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: saskatchewan canada
Posts: 35
Default Re: Flathead horsepower help

ok so im having some difficulties posting the pictures, bear with me.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4970.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	266.6 KB
ID:	1184295   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4977.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	248.7 KB
ID:	1184297   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4981.jpg
Views:	111
Size:	265.5 KB
ID:	1184298  

offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:17 PM.