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Chain/Gear Drive Steering Ideas/Comments?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Bungi, Jul 18, 2010.

  1. Bungi
    Joined: May 5, 2009
    Posts: 43

    Bungi
    Member

    Chain Drive Steering?

    I'm blowing the dust off an old project and want to start working on the steering set-up, MG Midget with a 215 Buick aluminum V8, stock front suspension and rack and pinion. Trouble is to get around everything (engine & headers) and have some leg room left over, the best route would be to go straight right about 10" and straight down about 10" with some type of chain/gear drive. I've studied the new Offset Steer (chain drive)product and I can probably get one to work but the price seems a little steep. Anyone out there have any experience on what size chain, sprockets, tensioners, etc. one should be using for safety sake? I want to research the idea of building my own custom offset drive... I'm not een on chain drive for safety sake but it is a tiny car with a light engine, so strength should be fine or how about just 90 degree gear drives and shafts?

    Thanks
    Rick
    Janesville, Wisconsin
     
  2. gladeparkflyer
    Joined: Jun 16, 2009
    Posts: 396

    gladeparkflyer
    BANNED

    i had a pal years ago who had an idea about usin the cable steer setup from an outboard for his steering. not sure how it'd work but the cables tiny, flexible and only requires a single hardmount at the axle end for the housing.... he worked in a boatshop so he was forever comin up with shit like that. just a thought....
     
  3. Crease
    Joined: May 7, 2002
    Posts: 2,878

    Crease
    Member

    I've never used one and not suggesting that you should or should not. However, I would suggest using multiple chains if your going that route.
     
  4. LM14
    Joined: Dec 18, 2009
    Posts: 1,936

    LM14
    Member Emeritus
    from Iowa

    The old circle track racers used to use timing chanis and gears. You can speed up or slow down the steering speed 50% with a stock set or keep it the same by using 2 crank or 2 cam gears.

    SPark
     

  5. Wildfire
    Joined: Apr 23, 2006
    Posts: 831

    Wildfire
    Member

    I'd look in a McMaster Carr or Motion Industries catalog. Saw a recent setup in one of the mags where it looked like the chain was about 1" wide. Besides the top and bottom sprockets, it had a tension/idler in the middle. Probably all mounted to a plate behind the firewall. Never done one, just admired the concept and given it some thought.
     
  6. [​IMG]

    Crappy pic, but chain operated shaft i think to a cross steer box.
     
  7. CustomV8MGB
    Joined: Oct 16, 2007
    Posts: 8

    CustomV8MGB
    Member
    from Texas

    Check out BritishV8.org -- lots of Buick 215 & MG guys there. Don't recall seeing any 215 (or later Rover variants of that motor) in a midget, but lots of them in MGB's. I've got a 302 in my MGB.
     
  8. I have seen the setups that racers make out of timing chains. Should be very strong. However, I don't think it would be easy to get a custom length made up. Using motorcycle chain and sprockets or industrial equivalents is probably more practical. As suggested earlier, two chains would provide needed redundancy.
     
  9. gladeparkflyer
    Joined: Jun 16, 2009
    Posts: 396

    gladeparkflyer
    BANNED

    thats a COOL car!
     
  10. Balcones1
    Joined: Nov 24, 2007
    Posts: 62

    Balcones1
    Member
    from AUSTIN

    Hey Rick, here's some pics of a steering offset I did on my econo pickup. I've never done this stuff before so this is my first attempt. I am still gonna add a second chain for safety but when i first did this I figured if it works on my heavy ass harley then the no.50 motorcycle chain should be plenty strong for this. I just went to the bearing/hydraulic shop and they had all the bearings, sprockets, and chain on the shelf. I just fabbed a bracket out of plate and made a tube that slip fitted over the top nose of the steering box to stabilize it. Bought some alloy steering shaft, welded the sprocket to it and welded a piece of dd tube to the other sprocket and ran a hardened bolt through the box shaft to lock it on. On the bottom side under the plate I slotted the bearing mount holes and put a bolt to a slide plate to tighten and loosen the chain. We will see how it works when I finally get the truck on the road.


    --GABE--
     

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  11. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 2,889

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    In my country [ New Zealand ] there is a lot of RHD conversions,
    Our country has banned chain drives in the steering.They obviously banned this practice for a reason [ maybe some "big brother" conspiracy ]
    Ask some Aussie H.A.M.Bers ,they have a similar situation.

    Use a steering box from a Mitsubishi Colt, These mount on the outside of the chassis rails [ more engine bay clearance ] and make a custom "drag link" that clears the underside of the engine
    [ you will need to play with bump steer here ]

    Or
    Convert it to "Rear Steer" and move the rack behind [ use a jap rack eg: Nissan Bluebird which is firewall mounted ]


    Don't use chains is my advice

    Heres some reading for ya! http://www.britishv8.org/MG/BillYoung.htm
     
  12. 61bone
    Joined: Feb 12, 2005
    Posts: 890

    61bone
    Member

    Just some food for thought.
    A #40 single roller chain running in oil at 3000 fpm will transmit 10 hp for a expected life of 1500 hrs. Taken from the roller chain standards. On a good day, you might make about a 1/2 hp for a few seconds and I doubt if you will ever gt it turning that fast. Transmission rate and expected life goes up as fpm goes down.
    Not saying yes or no to your circumstance, but I am building a drop now for the roadster. I am using two #35 chains for an extra margin even though I feel one would be plenty. The chains will run in oil. The shafts are machined from bar stock with the sprockets welded on. Input shaft has stock GM spline, Output 3/4" DD. The shafts will be carried by sealed bearings rated at 200 lbs side load. Tensioning by a press bolt sliding idler. The whole thing is in a case that measures 2" thick and a measly 3 " wide
     
  13. deto
    Joined: Jun 26, 2010
    Posts: 2,620

    deto
    Member

    Got a credit card?
     

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  14. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 11,341

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    The BritishV8 site has a lot of interesting transplants. One question... in this day and age, why not use a Gilmer belt / small rollers instead of chains? Smooth and quiet and low friction. I think that if I HAD to use chains on the firewall, I'd have them fully enclosed like that "gold chainer" rig that looks so cool but is made of un-obtanium. Or go vintage stock car and use gears and chains from the parts bin to offset the steering shaft - but I'd try to put them inside the car under the dash / behind the firewall. Rude n crude, but it worked. Gary
     

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    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
  15. I don't know if you could even find one anymore but when I built my 30 Model A truck back in the late 70's I used a Pinto flexible steering shaft to be able to bend around my Buick V6,,worked great on the light weight truck.

    Basically they are heavy woven steel cable about the size of a regular steering shaft but will bend to be able to accommodate your application.

    I saw the truck a few years ago and he was still running the shaft...that's getting close to 30 years,,so I worked out well.HRP
     
  16. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    I don't think there is anything wrong, in principle, in using a chain drive steering offset. It is the design, materials and construction that would be important to achieve a safe unit.


    I think 61bone summed it up pretty well. There just isn't all that much load on the steering shaft in normal operatings conditions, with the exception of parallel parking
    perhaps. And even that should not adversely affect chains of the size (#35/#40/#50) under discussion here.

    If you've seen some of the crap that passes for welds on hot rod steering shafts out there, you would be more afraid of one of those shafts from 'snapping' in two than a good quality chain seperating.

    Ray
     
  17. GuyW
    Joined: Feb 23, 2007
    Posts: 649

    GuyW
    Member

    Shock / impact loads are the problem. Things subjected to shock are typically designed with a factor of safety of at least 2.0....and figuring the shock load is tough in the first place...
    .
     
  18. GuyW
    Joined: Feb 23, 2007
    Posts: 649

    GuyW
    Member

    BTW, it seems that the box ought to be 2x as strong as the buckling force on the drag link....
    .
     
  19. 61bone
    Joined: Feb 12, 2005
    Posts: 890

    61bone
    Member

    That was my thought. Even a manual steer wont overpower you even under the most adverse norman driving condition so the loads aren't that much. The early cars with large scrub radiuses would jerk the wheel out of your hand and spin it to the stop when they hit something, but I havent heard of that in anything built after the 30s. A #35 chain has a rated 1758 lb minimum tension break strength and a working load of 450 lbs. That would be the equivalent of having to apply 30lbs of force to the steering wheel with a 14" wheel and a 12:1 box or 116 lbs to reach the minimum break strength. Even parallel parking won't reach that. Good luck with your steering drop.
     
  20. Left Turn
    Joined: Nov 13, 2009
    Posts: 634

    Left Turn
    Member Emeritus
    from Omaha, NE

    If you wanted to take a different approach Waterloo Boy tractors had an interesting chain steering set up.. it'd give you that "dangerous" look all the trendy rat rodders are goin' for....:D (look at the steering/gear box and the chain running to the axle)[​IMG]

    all kidding aside though, what ever you come up with, go with 2 chains, make sure it's covered, and has some sort of oiling system..
     
  21. W used to use 60 pitch chain from the Allis Chalmers shop. use a double row or a triple row like on a binder or a combine. You can buy sprockets in the same place.
    Pretty common practice on the modifieds back in the '70s.
     
  22. 61bone
    Joined: Feb 12, 2005
    Posts: 890

    61bone
    Member

    Talk about your extreme scrub radius. Note also that it has a spring arrangement to absorb steering shock loads because the worm steering wont turn under pressure.
     

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