Hot Rods Packard V-12 in Hotrods?

Everybody, including me, was entranced by the recent build-thread of the "Hotrod Lincoln" V-12 . I've always been fascinated by the Zephyr & Continental V-12s . . . but ALSO V-12s in general .

That thread set me to wondering why I haven't seen the PACKARD V-12 in old rods. Maybe they are/were there and my head was someplace else (EASY, guys! LOL). I know the Packard tranny was considered by rodders to be nearly as tough as the Las/Caddy trans . . . BUT, the Packard V-12 engine.

Packard, some say, made a big mistake when they cancelled the 12 after the '40 model year. They say it cost the marque some PRESTIGE. So, maybe the V-12 is/was too rare to be of much use to rodders? Or, was it that the engineering of the Packard mill didn't lend itself to hotrods?

Anybody know some facts about the Packard V-12s, or have some strong theories as to rod-ability? (Also, if anybody HAS one of these V-12s in a hotrod, could you please post pix & talk a little about performance?)

 

Problem number one is that a full rebuild of a Packard V12 is around 25k these days. Problem number two is the oiling system is super complex and requires somebody that actually knows what they are doing or the motor instantly seizes when you fire it up. Problem number three is that thing is big and heavy although it does generate tons of torque.

 

alsancle, yup, NOWADAYS, the cost surely would be a show-stopper (unless you had Donald Trump's dough and just didn't care!). And the technicalities of the oiling system sound like a factor also.

But, how about early? If a rodder could get a Lincoln V-12 cheap enough to put in a 'rod, why not a Packard? Didn't anybody actually at least TRY the Packard V-12, "back then," say, early '50s?

 

Surely, some enterprising guy at SOME time was able to lay hands on a decent-running Packard 12 and tranny, & stick the set-up in a coupe or roadster. ANYBODY?

 

They're heavy as hell, doesn't make much sense.

 

you get tons of horse power from small and big block v/8's,and for alot less in cost.i don't know about you,but 25k is alot of money just to look cool.

 

And, to continue these thoughts...how about a V-16? I seem to recall some pics of early lakes guys with a Marmon V-16 in a lakes car...

 

The bare block of a Packard 12 weighs as much as an iron head SBC ready to run. alsancle is also right on with the oiling factor, but add to that the hydraulic lifters, not truely hydraulic, but the lash is dampened by an intricate dashpot for take-up. This lifter system is as far from high performance as you can get from a cam standpoint but the running quality is 2nd to none. Now this is spliting hairs but there was 1 'hotrod' V-12 Packard. Ed Macauley had engineering build him a special custom speedster in 32 based on the 1st generation 1930 734 spedsters but with the then new "Twin Six" engine. This car was continuously upgraded with styling changes that would portend the models to follow. The radiator ornament was a special "scalded dog" one-off just for the car to indicate it's high speeds. I'd have to dig up some books from home and bring em in for a scan. The car was awesome.

 

There were Marmon and Cadillac v16 engines used on the flats. The Marmon in particular weighed much much less then the Packard while producing more HP and about the same torque.

 

Check out ThunderV12.com. These guys are trying to sell GMC V12's for Hot Rod use (If you have that perverbial $25K)

 

http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/packardconcepts.htm

Here are some pictures of Ed Macauley and the "brown bomber" Looks like, as stated before, it went through some serious body mods to predicate what was to come. Too bad this site just has pix and nothing about drivetrain. Just thought they were cool...

 

33 5Window, the question was early 1950s rodders, not now.

 

Nads & Highlander underscored the WEIGHT of the Packard 12, PRETTY MUCH nailing down that disadvantage which early rodders would not have ignore, even if a Packard 12 was cheap.

Alsancle & Highlander definitely drove home about the sophisticated (but complicated oiling and hydraulics of the V-12 Packard. Their input CLEARLY answers my original question regarding the applicability of that early-design 12 for hi-rev rodding.

Verdict: The Packard V-12 was obviously designed in an earlier era and to produce different results than even V-8 engines of the '50s/'60s.

Simply put, it was a good V-12 in its TIME, but as a rod motor -- a big NO, cost aside.

 

Koolade, yes the top 2 pics are the V-12 speedster I refered to. I'm not so certain about the "44" version. The site could be wrong but I can dig around to freshen up my brain cells.

 

THANKS to Highlander & Koolade for mentioning McCauley's SPECIALLY-made V-12 -- "Brown Bomber." Sounds like THAT was as close to a "hotrod" V-12 as Packard ever came (after all, blinding stoplight racing was not one of their objectives! LOL).

Sounds like the Brown Bomber was, in effect, one of Packard's earlier show and/or experimental cars, meant to explore certain possibilities -- not necessarily ever intended to be a production vehicle.

 

Even though we can't see inside the minds of Packard engineers & marketers who, now, are long dead. BUT, they were NOT slouches. THIS THREAD seems to make the case that they were RIGHT to drop the 12 (rather than update the internals) after 1940.

Sure, Packard lost the public "aura" of offering a 12, but the PRACTICAL considerations are probably the same as why Caddy finally discontinued their V-16. Is that a fair statement?

 

This 1916 Packard Twin Six Runabout (424 cubic inches) sold at the Leake Auction in Houston two weeks ago for $135,000. History of the car below

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/chassisNum.aspx?carID=10260&iDNumID=6337

 

More V12s in hot rods

http://www.packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=35104

 

Arkie, thanks for that link, man. Jay W. Packard intended from the first to build great cars, and auction results like that surely show that people revere the make -- for reasons just like that.

I appreciate all you HAMBers just "bearing with me" and examining the issues here analytically. I I'd known the answers, I wouldn't have asked, you know?

I ALSO enjoyed the input about the Caddy & Marmon V-16s on the salt. Everybody has always wanted to just SEE what a particular power plant could do when pushed, right? (We'll never know about the Peerless V-16, unfortunately.)

 

Thanks yet again, Arkie. I've been able to read up a lot more on the Lincoln/Zephyr V-12, as there's a lot more tech data available on the 'net. I WAS, however, impressed by the fact that Edsel Ford faced oiling issues with his early V-12. So, Ford engineers continued to improve those over the years of production (something Packard, apparently, decided not to pursue). Strong sales of Zephyrs probably helped those guys make up their minds there, I reckon.

 

Since you were referring to the early 50's you might consider the fact that there were a few Lincolns that, being rather pricey cars when new, had been well cared for and were still desirable cars, except for the problematic V12, that not only had boiling issues, but was displacement handicapped compared to the motors that were showing up in the wrecking yards at that time. It was a natural to pull the Lincoln motor and sell it to a hot rodder, then put a Rocket under the hood of that Continental! (Or a Caddy, Nailhead, etc.)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdfkTtqidw
There's at least one Marmon v-16 rod out there. I know, it's a gold chainer car, but it's a 16 cylinder Marmon and there is a degree of coolness from the engine alone. There are abunch of youtube videos about this car.

 

Here's a couple pics of Joe Panek's coupe and engine.
V16 Cadillac with front mounted blower.
Ran around 180 at El Mirage.
Joe is well known as the owner of Roto Faze Ignitions and Equipment
in Torrance, Ca.

 

Here is Marmon on the salt flats.

 

That "goldchainer" Marmon is a piece of work. Have to respect whoever built it. Wonder how much the owner did, he said "we" an awful lot on the video...lots of folks say that , and it turns out they just payed someone. Pretty neat, whatever the story.

 

Gorgeous in its '33 form. Later, not so much.

 

Interesting that Enzo Ferrari, who built the granddaddies of glorious sounding V12 engines, said that his inspiration for building a V12 was the Packard.

 

Nice old pics. You guys need to accept the differance between the Salt Flats and the Dry Lakes. These pictures, nice as they are, are from the lakes. No salt.

 

50Fraud, THANK YOU for contributing that bit of fact. We read all those old hotrod mags growing up AND remembered some shit! It's really helpful when guys step up and contribute this kind of info.

I'm no smartass, but Americans watched what the European were doing, JUST as much as Europeans watch what Americans were doing (an agent for R/R once told Rolls and Royce: "There is nothing we can SHOW them." This in reference to the R/R "competitor" makes, of course.

 

how about jag v12s? I happen to have one sitting in my garage