History We ALL Love a DARE! PIX of TRULY Extinct Makes?

[jimi'shemi291]

Barry, yes, I think so, but I haven't run back across the set of pix again, JUST the sdie view.

[jimi'shemi291]

Barry, et.al., I've been digging for hints on this car half the day. Though I have found no definitive answer, I have gotten some worthwhile info hinting at the solution.

At this point, I do NOT believe this car was made originally by the Liberty automobile company at all, especially since they almost exclusively used six-cylinder engines. I have developed a strong leaning toward thinking it is at least BASED on an American LaFrance (the fire-equipment company). That company did attest that it produced factory "chiefs' cars" in EXTREMELY small numbers. It appears that at least a handful of THOSE were modified or adapted as speedsters for racing.

It seems conceivable that the blue car started out as a 1916 LaFrance. However, if the "Liberty" in the apparently unofficial name refers to a LIBERTY aero engine produced for use in WWI, then, this modification must have been done somewhat AFTER 1916. Lotta IFs, eh? But this seems to be the only logical answer, and I thank AJ for posing the possibility of a later mod.

For now, the "Liberty" LaFrance shown here remains a (for me, anyway!) tantalyzing mystery.

[jimi'shemi291]

Found! The V-12 in the engine bay. Yowee, baby.

[barry2952]

That looks to be the same basic motor as the picture I posted.. What was the displacement?

[jimi'shemi291]

Barry, I'm in contact with Mr. Jorgensen, vp of the Golden Era Automobile Association. I'll add that to the questions I'm hasseling him with, 'cause this car has been fascinating to me. And, at times, I was doubting my sanity. Now, it seems the facts are comes to the surface.

[jimi'shemi291]

As AJ noted, the "1916" Liberty LaFrance we've been exploring bore some resemblance to the original Chitty Bang Bang cars. Note the chain drive similarity and wire wheels, too. And both of these cars used big aircraft engines. (Note: The aforementioned creation was probably closer to 1918 than '16.)



Count Louis Zborowski with Chitty Bang Bang # I at 2.75-mile
Brooklands in Surrey, possibly early '20s. With his partner,
Zborowski built four of his own cars, including the Chitty Bang
Bangs I, II and III. Chitty # I, above used a 23,093-cc Maybach
six-cylinder aero engine (Wow, isn't that 1,400-CID?). His
Chitty Bang Bang cars became the basis for the magical car
in Ian Flemming's book, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, basis for
the 1968 musical fantasy-comedy of the same name. Louis
was killed in the 1924 Italian Grand Prix. This photo is in the
public realm but comes THANKS to the WikiMedia Commons
project!

[jimi'shemi291]

Barry, I haven't heard from GEAA yet RE your question. But, according to en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1107376 on the 'net:

"The Liberty L-12 was a 27 litre (roughly 1,647-CID) water-cooled 45 degree V-12 aircraft engine of 400 horsepower (300 kW) designed both for a high power-to-weight ratio and for ease of mass production."

[SUNROOFCORD]

A friend of mine just purchased this very rare 1931 Peerless Club Sedan at a Wisconsin Auction. I have been unable to find a picture of another Club Sedan. Can anyone else? Club Sedan means NO rear quarter windows. Thanks.

[jimi'shemi291]

SunRoof, it surely seems to me that Mark made a good investment, even if he just holds it for a decade or so. Imminently restorable condition, too! Heck, it couldn't get much scarcer, unless it had been built in Sept/Oct of '31 and registered as a '32 Peerless, right? And, of the few Peerless cars built at the end, it does appear that the senior 7-passengers survive in greater numbers, doesn't it?

I just read that the Club Sedan was offered in all four Peerless series: Standard 8, Master 8, Deluxe 8 and Custom 8. If a Custom 8, it should have an ashtray & cigar lighter in the back seat. But the subject car seems to be on a wheelbase shorter than the massive 138-inch Custom (the others being 118, 125 and 115). Wire wheels versus wood. Only the Deluxe and Custom had a 4-speed trans., so maybe that's another clue to just which series this specimen is.

I am still searching for the '31 Club sans quarter-windows, but the model below does convey a sense of how usually staid Peerless styling really shined at the end of the run. The 1/18 model by Ansen has been discontinued but seems to be readily available on the aftermarket.


1931 Peerless seven-passenger sedan

[jimi'shemi291]

This '31 LaSalle club sedan obviously doesn't mirror a Peerless,
but it at least serves to illustrate what SunRoofCord says about
the lack of quarter-windows. For MY money, this makes for a
CLASSY roofline!

[jimi'shemi291]

Okay, early results are in on the MYSTERY Liberty LaFrance!



(1) NOT made by the Liberty Motor Car Co. of Detroit
(2) KRIT body
(3) mounted on chassis of an American LaFrance, probably
a "chiefs' car" first made in 1916
(4) engine, 400-hp Liberty aircraft V-12, developed in a rush
program for World War I
(5) whether a company or an individual built it is UNKNOWN!
(6) when & where this special was created: UNKNOWN!
(7) WHY created: BLINDING SPEED!

[jimi'shemi291]

Updating, I misspoke earlier. American LaFrance made chief's cars for many years (I think, 1904 into the '20s). They didn't make a true speedster until 1916. Sorry. (They didn't make many of EITHER, though.) Anyway, here are two specimens of their EARLY speedsters.



1916 American LaFrance speedster, THANKS to the WikiMedia Commons Project.



1918 American LaFrance speedster, sincere thanks to
Oldtimer gallery. Cars. Pre-1932 types, USA. (www.autogallery.org.ru/ppreus.html)

[jimi'shemi291]

Before the Liberty aero engine was even
a pipe dream, American LaFrance DID make
a model of their owned dubbed "Liberty."
Here's a pic of the ALF Liberty Type 5, made
in 1911. Fewer than 50 were built before it
was replaced by the ALF Type 10.

1911 Liberty Type 5 Double Tank Fire Truck

[jimi'shemi291]

In the May 1, 2005, issue of Hemmings' magazine, Hemmings Classic Car, Craig Fitzgerald wrote about American LaFrance's early roadsters and speedsters, including so-called "chiefs' cars." This article does shed a lot of light on this little-known chapter of ALF history, as well as on the blue mystery super-car.

Myself, I even looked into the 1912 chiefs' cars made for the city of Cincinnati by Nyberg in Anderson, Indiana. But those appear to have been strictly Nybergs with no real factory association with ALF.

In the context of the Hemmings article, Craig cited the project of Ed Berquist of Loveland, CO, who built his own ALF speedster, starting with a 1927 ALF fire truck chassis. Finished car pictured here, THANKS to the folks at Hemmings!

Current owner and ALF aficionado Steve Anderson of Denver states unequivocally that it would be a mistake to think that this is a one-of-a-kind vehicle [Note: So much for my notion that the "Liberty LaFrance" was strictly speaking one-of-a-kind!]. He says that he has personally sold some 20 ALF fire truck chassis to enthusiasts specially to become speedsters.



1927 American LaFrance chief's car sits on a wheelbase over 13' long.

[jimi'shemi291]

Following is an exchange between me and Rick Jorgensen, VP of the Golden Era Automobile Association. This took place in the last two days. I found it great fun, as Rick not only cleared up most of the mystery, he's a guy with HUGE car passion, and his prose shows it! (I've hilighted Rick's comments in RED below.)


1916 Liberty LaFrance V-12 Touring, Liberty Motor Co. [sic],
Detroit, Mi. (1916-1924), thanks to Royal Feltner's site,
earlyamericanautomobiles.

Hello, Rick! Royal Feltner referred me to you with my query. I am in a quandary trying to find anything definitive on the bright blue 1916 Liberty LaFrance V-12 speedster on Royal's site. He said it comes from your club.

I did find that American LaFrance made a "Type 5" in 1911 they called the Liberty Type 5, and they made less than 50. And, in 1916, they made a speedster but less than 30 of those. The one shown has a V-12, as I understand, but the Liberty auto company only made six-cylinder cars. So I am wondering if the blue one is in fact an American LaFrance product. This one has me puzzled, and I'm starting to think it was "customized" at some time after 1916, possibly when surplus Liberty V-12 aircraft engines became available after the WWI Armistice.

Hello Jim, you are absolutely right. This is one of the first "hot-rods." It has a K.R.I.T. body mounted on an ALF frame with a Liberty 450HP V-12 engine.

I've ridden in it and it will positively make your hair turn gray! -- Sincerely, Rick A. Jorgensen, Vice-President & Editor of GEAA, Golden Era Automobile Association, check us out at.....www.geaaonline.org

Hey there, Rick! That's exciting stuff, and THANKS. Amen on the Liberty LaFrance being "one of the first hotrods"! Now, given the era, this would have been a "road" or "straight-line" car, rather than a drag-racer, wouldn't you say? I don't think quarter-mile-based drag racing really caught on until the likes of Tom McCahill, decades later.

Rick, any idea who was behind this hop-up? Factory or an individual? About when and where would this car have been built? On a straight line, would the Liberty V-12 have run in the league of, say a '36 Auburn supercharged Lycoming (meaning 100-mph)? I don't think the Auburn could touch 450-hp, for sure, even supercharged. A super big THANKS again, Rick! Jim in Columbus

Rick, any idea who was behind this hop-up?

No I sure don't. It was done so many years ago. Bud Melby bought the car out of England I think.

Factory or an individual? Don't know.

About when and where would this car have been built? Not Known.

On a straight line, would the Liberty V-12 have run in the league of, say a '36 Auburn supercharged Lycoming (meaning 100-mph)?
Sometime in the last 20 years it was tested at speed and at 110 MPH the throttle was still had plenty to go.

They backed off at 110 because they were afraid that the drive chains would explode or derail from centrifugal force. (They were absolutely screaming!)

I don't think the Auburn could touch 450-hp, for sure, even supercharged.
It could easily run away from them from a dead stop. When I rode in it, the throttle was only punched momentarily and the frame actually twisted enough to lift one front wheel off the ground. (Yes! an ALF frame!) -- Sincerely, Rick

[SUNROOFCORD]

1931 Devaux

[alsancle]

re:1916 Liberty LaFrance V-12 speedster

I'm not doubting that this car wasn't done 50 years ago or more, but in my experience there is always history that can be found. Super cool cars like this get photographed and those photos turn up. Stuff gets written down, in period - sometimes in magazines - sometimes in club newsletters. However, sometimes when the history doesn't turn up there isn't any.

[jimi'shemi291]

AJ, good point. We now know what went into this special, customized speedster. We know reliably that it would scream in its day (After all, it is what it is). And we know that many, many Liberty V-12s were around, UNUSED, well after WWI.

So, I think the real burning questions here (pedigree, if you will, even for a custom car) would be:

Where, when & by whom was this proto-hotrod created?

The current owner must have some of these details. So -- tomorrow -- I'll go back to the well & ask Mr. Jorgensen to pose these questions to the current owner. I have no expectation that he wouldn't want to share such info about a cool car that looks as if Isadora Duncan just fell out of it last night! LOL

[HJmaniac]

Originally Posted by jimi'shemi291

Updating, I misspoke earlier. American LaFrance made chief's cars for many years (I think, 1904 into the '20s). They didn't make a true speedster until 1916. Sorry. (They didn't make many of EITHER, though.) Anyway, here are two specimens of their EARLY speedsters.



1916 American LaFrance speedster, THANKS to the WikiMedia Commons Project.



1918 American LaFrance speedster, sincere thanks to
Oldtimer gallery. Cars. Pre-1932 types, USA. (www.autogallery.org.ru/ppreus.html)

1918 ALF Speedster Fire Chief Car

[HJmaniac]

How many of these do you think are around?