History Auto racing 1894-1944

[T-Head]

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[model.A.keith]

Originally Posted by The37Kid

The car is restored and in the Mullin collection in California.

On my bucket list..............sadly it appears they only open on specific dates, none of which coincide when were in CA


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[T-Head]

Postcard from London 1908......

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by kurtis

While you are here Don, can you tell me if the AAA sanctioned any racing at 1/2 mile tracks?

Originally Posted by Don Capps

Yes, the A.A.A. Contest Board sanctioned quite a number of events at half-mile and even shorter tracks right to the end.

I have been looking through the A.A.A. Sanction Book records lately and just in the Southern states and Texas found a large number of such tracks with sanctions that were less than a mile in length.

In 1920 in the South alone, A.A.A. sanctioned events held on half-mile tracks included: Goldsboro, Gainesville, Ocala, Tampa, Bluefield, Norfolk, and Augusta.

I don't have a A.A.A. Sanction Book or a Contest rule book nor do i have many years of experience or a plethora of contacts to help me accumulate such information, instead i rely on the many newspaper articles found online for my research into the mess that was American motor racing.

I asked this question after stumbling upon an article in the NY Times during one of those late nights reading up on anything remotely related to motorcycle racing or it's industry. In the article, titled HALF-MILE TRACKS BARRED. A.A.A. Will Not Sanction Races for Short Dirt Courses. dated August 13, 1911. it states the following..

Detroit. Mich., Aug. 12- Sanction for automobiles on one-half-mile tracks hereafter will be refused by the General Rules Committee of the Manufacturers' Contest Association, which has just closed it's session here. At the same time the safeguarding of one-mile dirt courses was assured.
Strict enforcement of the new regulation is expected to greatly reduce the number of fatalities among driver's who compete in races on the mile horse tracks.
...and so on.

This is just one article i have found regarding this rule. However, i did find something similar in Darren Galpin's book from a 4th July., 1911. York. PA. race meeting that never took place because of the disqaulification and subsequent banning until January 1st., 1912 of the York County Automobile Association, the York County Agricultural Society which granted permission for the contests to be held and the official starter, H.P.Hardesty for running an unsanctioned race, according to the A.A.A. It is also written that the local press reports that "the A.A.A. does not sanction races on half mile tracks. I trust Galpin's book and to some degree, TNYT, so when did this rule take effect if there really was one?
More than likely i'm missing something. Perhaps a few more late night's trolling the newspaper article's i suspect.

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by onelung

Page 202 & the Eldred Norman double V8.
Sorry about the quality - just feel the width!

WOW. Is that what it looked like. I'm scared just looking at it.

Thanks mate.

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by Bluto

This is one of my BMWs but it's 1946+ so off topic

Note!! the photo doesn't go off the page

Bluto, even though it's a couple of years too new for this thread i'll cut you some slack. A story about an interesting car owned by an equally interesting fellow is too good to pass.

Tell us some stories about this and the other BMW you had/have in your possession.

[T-Head]

None of this is new information, but I don't think we have covered it here yet.

[Don Capps]

Originally Posted by kurtis

I don't have a A.A.A. Sanction Book or a Contest rule book nor do i have many years of experience or a plethora of contacts to help me accumulate such information, instead i rely on the many newspaper articles found online for my research into the mess that was American motor racing.

I asked this question after stumbling upon an article in the NY Times during one of those late nights reading up on anything remotely related to motorcycle racing or it's industry. In the article, titled HALF-MILE TRACKS BARRED. A.A.A. Will Not Sanction Races for Short Dirt Courses. dated August 13, 1911. it states the following..

Detroit. Mich., Aug. 12- Sanction for automobiles on one-half-mile tracks hereafter will be refused by the General Rules Committee of the Manufacturers' Contest Association, which has just closed it's session here. At the same time the safeguarding of one-mile dirt courses was assured.
Strict enforcement of the new regulation is expected to greatly reduce the number of fatalities among driver's who compete in races on the mile horse tracks.
...and so on.

This is just one article i have found regarding this rule. However, i did find something similar in Darren Galpin's book from a 4th July., 1911. York. PA. race meeting that never took place because of the disqaulification and subsequent banning until January 1st., 1912 of the York County Automobile Association, the York County Agricultural Society which granted permission for the contests to be held and the official starter, H.P.Hardesty for running an unsanctioned race, according to the A.A.A. It is also written that the local press reports that "the A.A.A. does not sanction races on half mile tracks. I trust Galpin's book and to some degree, TNYT, so when did this rule take effect if there really was one?
More than likely i'm missing something. Perhaps a few more late night's trolling the newspaper article's i suspect.

In 1911, the Contest Board issued sanctions for 10 -- maybe 11 -- races to be held on half-mile tracks. In 1912, the Contest Board issued sanctions for at least 26 events held at half-mile tracks; there were maybe five or so tracks whose length is either uncertain or simply unknown at the moment which could add to the total.

You can draw your own conclusions as to how hard and fast the Contest Board stuck to this idea, especially with sanctioning fees at stake.

I almost listed the events held on half-mile tracks for 1911 and 1912, but I have a number of other things I am working on at the moment, although I did make time to look this up for you.

There is nothing in the records of the Contest Board meetings for 1911 that makes any reference to the Contest Board not sanctioning events on half-mile tracks for the remainder of 1911 or for 1912. However, there are gaps in the minutes of the meetings so that announcement could be missing.

The Contest Board meeting in which those involved with the unsanctioned event on 4 July at the County Fair Grounds Track, York, Pa., were disqualified from further participation in A.A.A. events was held on 18 July 1911.

I did write something on the Catlin issue, but on one seems to have bothered to read it, which is fine. I do not have a "plethora of contacts" since there are very, very few scholars or historians who take automobile racing history with any level of seriousness, so I have spent many years building up resources and reference materials, which is a never-ending and very time-consuming task. Obsessing on the cars is easy, dealing all the other stuff is hard.

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A Marmon racing car in what appears to be its retirement years.

[deuce354]

Hello ,Been following this thread since the beginning, the information is amazing. I have a few vintage race cars, and trying to find out anything about a midget i just bought. I bought this car a few months ago from a guy in Cleveland. He has NO history on this car. He bought it with 5 other cars from a estate in Toledo a few years ago. My good friend Jim Etter went with me to pick it up. This car is really cool a & the workmanship is excellent . This was a first class car in its day, alot of chrome. Jim thinks this is a very early midget maybe 1934-36 vintage, and probably built in California. Jim & I have looked thru the Jack Fox book, the Ron Pollack book, all of Crocky Wrights books, the Floyd Dreyer book, NO luck. Alot of similar cars in the Fox book, but not mine. The car has some unique features, 12" lockring knockoff wheels, a Atlas Chrome look a like grille shell, handmade front axle & steering linkage, a crank driven Bosch Magneto. The guy also told me it had a early Willys engine. Well it is not a Willys, Jim & I have searched the for all the options, NO luck yet. We think it is out of a small car , because of the matching 3 speed transmission & clutch. Bolts right up, NO adaptors, clutch pedal out the side of the bellhousing. Engine has NO provision for a starter, so it was probably hand cranked. When it was raced im sure jt was roped towed because there is no rear bumper or push bar, or no evidence that there ever was one. One Hamber suggested it could be a tractor engine because of no starter. I really need to find out what engine it is ,because i need a few parts. NO numbers or letters on engine or transmission . This car is really cool, and the condition is amazing. I am not going to restore it , going to leave it original. I am taking it to the Winchester Old Timers weekend, maybe someone there might know something. Hoping to find out anything about it, Thanks in advance Deek

[deuce354]

A few More pictures

[T-Head]

This car is really cool, and the condition is amazing. I am not going to restore it , going to leave it original.

Good decision....To many cars have been ruined just so the owner could have a shiny perfect car. Conserve it and leave it just the way it is.

[Don Capps]

Originally Posted by kurtis

....for my research into the mess that was American motor racing.

I would suggest that the use of the word "mess" is more a subjective opinion based upon anachronistic thoughts and opinions than a completely accurate portrayal of the contemporary automobile racing scene. That there were issues and difficulties that existed is quite true, but it must also be kept in mind that during the second decade of the 20th Century the sport scene in general was very fluid and dynamic. During this period you will find that baseball, horse racing, football, boxing, and a number of other sports were all experiencing significant challenges of varying kinds and some level of turmoil or stress as a result.

When one takes a step back, it becomes clear that several sources have influenced and shaped subsequent opinion, for better or worse, of automobile racing in the early 20th Century. Helck being an example of the former and Catlin, generally, of the latter. There is also the long-standing problem that few scholars and historians, even those studying automotive issues, have turned their attention to the overall automobile racing scene and not just the automobiles and some of the personalities that were a part of all this.

While it is fortunate that much is being done in recent years to provide a better assessment of these years, as is the case with such things, it is slow -- even plodding -- going. The answers are still fewer than our questions in this endeavor.

Looking at the other end of the time span, only in very recent years have scholars even begun to seriously examine certain aspects of American automobile racing in the decade prior to the US entry into WW2. That the folklore, legends, and mythology that surrounds stock car racing and its "origins," time and again credited to the moonshiners of the Southern Appalachians, is only now being seriously challenged seems to suggest that the inmates have long been in charge of this portion of history and are very reluctant to see this mythology exposed for what it is -- myth.

Perhaps the moonshiner/stock car myth will finally bite the dust in a few years. The issue is not that those either hauling or producing illegal liquor were not involved in stock car racing, rather it is their role, there being much to suggest that it was less on the driving and promotion side and much more concerned the money-laundering aspects that such an activity presented. I have long thought that to swallow the moonshiners as being the originators of stock car racing, that you had to be about as "smart" as a box of rocks. There certainly seem to be many boxes of rocks out there.

Since it seems obligatory to post some sort of eye candy, generally without any attribution, much less any rhyme or reason, here is the Kilpatrick Hotchkiss that participated in the 1908 Jamaica time trials (Motor, July 1908, pg. 395).

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I found this photo of the Grey Wolf at Daytona but could not find it here on the thread in the past. I posted it as it gives a nice clear view of its construction.

[T-Head]

I have seen these photos scattered here and there but found their origin and this interesting story about......Nina Vitagliano and the Speederettes. The tragic story of an Italian-born American race driver at velocetoday.com, follow the link below.

http://www.velocetoday.com/people/people_39.php

[floydjer]

Originally Posted by Don Capps

I would suggest that the use of the word "mess" is more a subjective opinion based upon anachronistic thoughts and opinions than a completely accurate portrayal of the contemporary automobile racing scene. That there were issues and difficulties that existed is quite true, but it must also be kept in mind that during the second decade of the 20th Century the sport scene in general was very fluid and dynamic. During this period you will find that baseball, horse racing, football, boxing, and a number of other sports were all experiencing significant challenges of varying kinds and some level of turmoil or stress as a result.

When one takes a step back, it becomes clear that several sources have influenced and shaped subsequent opinion, for better or worse, of automobile racing in the early 20th Century. Helck being an example of the former and Catlin, generally, of the latter. There is also the long-standing problem that few scholars and historians, even those studying automotive issues, have turned their attention to the overall automobile racing scene and not just the automobiles and some of the personalities that were a part of all this.

While it is fortunate that much is being done in recent years to provide a better assessment of these years, as is the case with such things, it is slow -- even plodding -- going. The answers are still fewer than our questions in this endeavor.

Looking at the other end of the time span, only in very recent years have scholars even begun to seriously examine certain aspects of American automobile racing in the decade prior to the US entry into WW2. That the folklore, legends, and mythology that surrounds stock car racing and its "origins," time and again credited to the moonshiners of the Southern Appalachians, is only now being seriously challenged seems to suggest that the inmates have long been in charge of this portion of history and are very reluctant to see this mythology exposed for what it is -- myth.

Perhaps the moonshiner/stock car myth will finally bite the dust in a few years. The issue is not that those either hauling or producing illegal liquor were not involved in stock car racing, rather it is their role, there being much to suggest that it was less on the driving and promotion side and much more concerned the money-laundering aspects that such an activity presented. I have long thought that to swallow the moonshiners as being the originators of stock car racing, that you had to be about as "smart" as a box of rocks. There certainly seem to be many boxes of rocks out there.

Since it seems obligatory to post some sort of eye candy, generally without any attribution, much less any rhyme or reason, here is the Kilpatrick Hotchkiss that participated in the 1908 Jamaica time trials (Motor, July 1908, pg. 395).

With great florish and eloquence thou doth wax

[Bluto]

Seems to me one misses much when 'Bottle fed'

Or perhaps not...........

[Don Capps]

Originally Posted by floydjer

With great florish (sic) and eloquence thou doth wax

Literacy is a great burden that some must bear in this day and age.

[Bluto]

Capps

Is that a Leo Gorcey quote?

[Cris]

Hey boss, is that thing related to this thing? Is it this thing?

Originally Posted by Bluto

This is one of my BMWs but it's 1946+ so off topic

Note!! the photo doesn't go off the page