History Auto racing 1894-1944

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by Max Halstock

I believe it has a Hall-Scott aero engine, as does the Schneider in two of the other photos.

Welcome aboard Max.

[ehdubya]

(Jacques) Alezy sur Bayard-Clément, Salon 1908 [course automobile, 10 septembre]



Arrivée d'Alezy sur Bayard-Clément, Salon 1908 [course automobile, 10 septembre]

[Harley Gene]

I thought you might enjoy this video.
HG

http://tiny.cc/s6g89

[T-Head]

Originally Posted by Max Halstock

I believe it has a Hall-Scott aero engine, as does the Schneider in two of the other photos.

Thanks for the info Max.....

[Vitesse]

Strange statement in that video about fatalities in Bugatti T59s. Only two drivers have been killed in that model - the Duke of Grafton in 1936 and Kenneth Bear in 1949. Admittedly there were spectator fatalities involved in Bear's crash, but the T59 wasn't a killer as implied. Grafton was - sadly - a fool: an accident waiting to happen.

In fact, considering how many Bugs of all sorts were built they have a remarkably good safety record on the circuits.

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by ehdubya

(Jacques) Alezy sur Bayard-Clément, Salon 1908 [course automobile, 10 septembre]

Arrivée d'Alezy sur Bayard-Clément, Salon 1908 [course automobile, 10 septembre]

Ah ha. So it is. Thanks.
I have one question though. Do you think the Gallica photos are correct?
The 1908 car, with 4 cyl. 130HP engine is different and the only information i have regarding Alezy, in terms of results, is from the 1907 GP de l'ACF where he also drove a Clement-Bayard, i'm assuming the 80HP 6 Cyl. car.

[ehdubya]

For want of better info yes, a dirigible engine perhaps. The mechanician in the Kaisepreis pic looks like Duray's companion Franville

'Alezi' at Brescia http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv...r=alezi.langFR

[T-Head]

A very interesting and early Stevens-Duyea two-cyl. horizontal engined racer on the beach at Daytona.

The second photo shows the Packard Grey Wolf on the right with an Orient Buckboad in the middle and a early Peerless just behind it.....

[ehdubya]

This thread has become a great resource in itself

Originally Posted by The37Kid

Two Clement Bayard cars from the 1907 GP the four was driven by Alesy the six by Shepard

like the wire wheeled Renault Sheperd's postcard car doesn't match the race car, I imagine they were produced for sale at the meet.





A good part of the hoodless big 6 can be seen these pics of Alezy's car





if you go back to the 1908 GP cars the chassis likeness is more apparant and the blob representing chevalier radiator badge they probably adopted that year.

Some super cars with 12,963 cc six-cylinder overhead camshaft engines were built for the 1908 French Grand Prix.* Three of these cars took part in the race

The complete encyclopedia of Vintage Cars - Rob de la Rive Box

http://www.heritageeditions.nl

[gnichols]

In the just wondering department...

Although I don't know their where abouts, I suspect there are a lot of these grand old machines, or slightly newer pre-rear engine GP / oval racers out there and that, restored or not, those cars rarely see the light of day. Other than major concours, are there any other "Big" events where large groups of these cars come together each year?

Perhaps one of you guys could start a seperate thread on that?

I have been to the Indy Museum, but that was many years ago. I plan to revisit it this Labor Day weekend after the US Nats. And I've made a couple of Miller meets in Milwaukee. So... what other museums, car shows, track days / vintage races out there are well attended, seminal events for old GP or oval racers to attend each year? Private collections that might be open occasionally? Restoration shops that might entertain a cruise-in?

I don't know a lot about these cars, but I just LOVE to oggle over them in person, wonder at their construction and in doing so get a better appreciation for how large your "balls" had to be to drive them at speed.

Thanx, Gary

[T-Head]

This Hudson of which I found a photo of is unfamiliar looking to me. I am thinking that I was possibly raced in Europe? because of the design on the rear of the body.

Only Pope-Hartford and late Mercer racing cars used this type of a tail here in the US. Can anyone enlighten us about this particular car?

[T-Head]

This photo has notations on it stating that it is a racing car made by the Marion Motors Company. It is dated 1905 and has some writing on the back noting the driver was Fred I. Tone (He may have been associated with the American Underslung later on). The notations also tell us the car raced at Grosse Pointe track in Detroit, Michigan as well as the Fort Erie track in Buffalo, NY.

Marion being from Indianapolis home of the Premier and also Carl Fisher has me wondering if both this car and the Premier race cars both may share the same DNA?

[T-Head]

Originally Posted by gnichols

In the just wondering department...

Although I don't know their where abouts, I suspect there are a lot of these grand old machines, or slightly newer pre-rear engine GP / oval racers out there and that, restored or not, those cars rarely see the light of day. Other than major concours, are there any other "Big" events where large groups of these cars come together each year?

Thanx, Gary

Sadly for open wheeled oval track racing there is really only the Miller Milwaukee gathering, the Indy Carburation day and five lap run and the now three day event at New Hampshire Raceway. There is also the event at the California Speedway but I an unsure if it is still running.

I have been fortunate to have been to all three and have also driven at all of them. The Miller meet is great and some wonderful cars and people always show up. There is plenty of track time but the flag man has a radar gun and the speed limit is usually around 65 MPH.

At Indy there are usually about 33 cars on pit road and the five lap run but it is usually paced and the only way to get in a good fast lap in is to hang back or be in one of the oldest cars which they put in the back.

The New Hampshire event has the best driving experience but usually only a handful of prewar cars and maybe 4-5 Offy Roadsters attend. There are also sprints and midgets attending. But the drivers that attend get to really run the cars as fast as they care to and it can be very enjoyable to see and listen to.

The Monterey Historics has quite a few oval track cars in attendance also and they really do race there so it is also enjoyable. For a serious racing fan you should really try to take it in as it is one of the best with plenty of prewar cars.

Many of the other vintage racing events allow oval track cars to run in their events but unless they are set up to turn both ways they have a handicap against the road racers.

Vintage Motorsport Magazine and website gives lots of info and dates for everything.

http://www.vintagemotorsport.com/

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by ehdubya

For want of better info yes, a dirigible engine perhaps. The mechanician in the Kaisepreis pic looks like Duray's companion Franville

I hadn't seen a photo of Franville before but the mechanic in your photo link has a remarkable resemblance to Fernand Gabriel.

I also noticed the cosmetic changes that appear on the cars over a two year span. The cars in the postcards look to be two different models. Shepard's car sit's just a tad higher.

The Clement-Bayard of Achille Fournier at the 1906 Targa Florio. He actually wore the #1 during the race but did not finish.

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by ehdubya

From the Bentley University archives simply titled : Lucia Fiat

There was a Lucia that entered the 1907 Targa Florio but did not appear.

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by T-Head

This Hudson of which I found a photo of is unfamiliar looking to me. I am thinking that I was possibly raced in Europe? because of the design on the rear of the body.

Only Pope-Hartford and late Mercer racing cars used this type of a tail here in the US. Can anyone enlighten us about this particular car?

Trying to identify faces from B&W photos is somewhat difficult at times.
My initial thought was A.H. Patterson in the driver's seat.

[gnichols]

Originally Posted by T-Head

Sadly for open wheeled oval track racing there is really only the Miller Milwaukee gathering, the Indy Carburation day and five lap run and the now three day event at New Hampshire Raceway. There is also the event at the California Speedway but I an unsure if it is still running.

I have been fortunate to have been to all three and have also driven at all of them. The Miller meet is great and some wonderful cars and people always show up. There is plenty of track time but the flag man has a radar gun and the speed limit is usually around 65 MPH.

At Indy there are usually about 33 cars on pit road and the five lap run but it is usually paced and the only way to get in a good fast lap in is to hang back or be in one of the oldest cars which they put in the back.

The New Hampshire event has the best driving experience but usually only a handful of prewar cars and maybe 4-5 Offy Roadsters attend. There are also sprints and midgets attending. But the drivers that attend get to really run the cars as fast as they care to and it can be very enjoyable to see and listen to.

The Monterey Historics has quite a few oval track cars in attendance also and they really do race there so it is also enjoyable. For a serious racing fan you should really try to take it in as it is one of the best with plenty of prewar cars.

Many of the other vintage racing events allow oval track cars to run in their events but unless they are set up to turn both ways they have a handicap against the road racers.

Vintage Motorsport Magazine and website gives lots of info and dates for everything.

http://www.vintagemotorsport.com/

T-head thanx for the ideas. Funny thing, I got the new Coker catalog in the mail today... perhaps these events will be fun, too, if you have an old car or a replica, or a newly created speedster. Gary


www.cokertirechallenge.com

[Rootie Kazoootie]

Originally Posted by gnichols

In the just wondering department...

Although I don't know their where abouts, I suspect there are a lot of these grand old machines, or slightly newer pre-rear engine GP / oval racers out there and that, restored or not, those cars rarely see the light of day. Other than major concours, are there any other "Big" events where large groups of these cars come together each year?

Perhaps one of you guys could start a seperate thread on that?

I have been to the Indy Museum, but that was many years ago. I plan to revisit it this Labor Day weekend after the US Nats. And I've made a couple of Miller meets in Milwaukee. So... what other museums, car shows, track days / vintage races out there are well attended, seminal events for old GP or oval racers to attend each year? Private collections that might be open occasionally? Restoration shops that might entertain a cruise-in?

I don't know a lot about these cars, but I just LOVE to oggle over them in person, wonder at their construction and in doing so get a better appreciation for how large your "balls" had to be to drive them at speed.

Thanx, Gary

Not too far from you, they have a historic festival at Darlington in the fall and usually have quite a few 50s/60s Indy cars and such. Scroll down this page for some pics from last year.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...t+car&page=371

[gnichols]

Originally Posted by Rootie Kazoootie

Not too far from you, they have a historic festival at Darlington in the fall and usually have quite a few 50s/60s Indy cars and such. Scroll down this page for some pics from last year.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...t+car&page=371

Thanx.. neat pix. I'll have to try and find out who sanctions that event. Gary

[ehdubya]

Originally Posted by kurtis

I hadn't seen a photo of Franville before but the mechanic in your photo link has a remarkable resemblance to Fernand Gabriel.
.

T-Head posted that photo not so long ago, how about Howard's wonderful swinger pic? .... http://www.vanderbiltcupraces.com/in...s/driver/duray

Originally Posted by kurtis

I also noticed the cosmetic changes that appear on the cars over a two year span. The cars in the postcards look to be two different models. Shepard's car sit's just a tad higher.

Shepard's car appears to be a similar chassis with everything set forward to accommodate a longer engine and a forebear of the hoodless monster. It's hard to imagine it was under the 8 litre kaiserpreis limit.

Originally Posted by kurtis

The Clement-Bayard of Achille Fournier at the 1906 Targa Florio. He actually wore the #1 during the race but did not finish.

I have Achille and Henri in #4, Maurice in #7 and Lancia #1