History Auto racing 1894-1944

[Mac the Yankee]

Originally Posted by model.A.keith

Mac,





article is here, at the bottom of the page......

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...26tbs%3Disch:1


.

.

Keith

Thanks Keith!!!

[T-Head]

Originally Posted by Vitesse

Michael, Don and I have all - at various times and in various places - challenged some of the myths and fairy-tales which have made their way into the literature: the Eifelrennen paint scratching, the Indianapolis champagne-quaffing and team orders at Monza in 1956 being just three. I also want to know who concocted the story about Emilio Villoresi being killed testing a car after drinking too much at lunch: total poppycock, but you can find it all over the internet!

Yes - this thread is all about pictures, and much appreciated as such, but a picture with a wrong caption is worse than useless ...

Corrections and discussion are always welcome here but not comments about how the poster is a total ignoramus for posting something. This is about pictures and education, not about putting the other person down because they do not know as much as the "experts". This is a community here and regardless of who they are, people need to be treated with respect.

There are people on here from all walks of life, from all over the world. We are have different interests and areas of expertise and we need to work together to make this a better place where we can all learn from and help each other.

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by Vitesse

Cris: I'm quite happy to agree to disagree. I shall merely quote from kurtis' first post in this thread:

Michael, Don and I have all - at various times and in various places - challenged some of the myths and fairy-tales which have made their way into the literature: the Eifelrennen paint scratching, the Indianapolis champagne-quaffing and team orders at Monza in 1956 being just three. I also want to know who concocted the story about Emilio Villoresi being killed testing a car after drinking too much at lunch: total poppycock, but you can find it all over the internet!

Yes - this thread is all about pictures, and much appreciated as such, but a picture with a wrong caption is worse than useless ...

Hmm. It must be 'pick on Kurtis day', or is that everyday?

It seems i have contradicted myself. But why? Hmm.

It also seems you have missed my point of view regarding the discussion with Don, or didn't you, or was your post something of another nature. Was it in support of Gerald Rose or in support of....hmm.

If it was in support of Mr Rose then i'm assuming that you do in fact agree with my points of what i deem to be race.

You say a picture with a wrong caption is worse than useless. I agree. This is one of many reasons why this thread is of benefit to all who are interested on this subject.

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by kurtis

Any info on this particular car?

1907 GP de l'ACF @ Dieppe.

Degrais stopping for fuel in the #2 Germain.
Finished 14th.

Now, are we going to blabber and blahdy blah blah about individual theories concerning a particular subject or can anyone please help me with any information regarding this particular car? Anyone.

[model.A.keith]

Originally Posted by T-Head

Corrections and discussion are always welcome here but not comments about how the poster is total ignoramus for posting something. This is about pictures and education, not about putting the other person down because they do not know as much as the "experts". This is a community here and regardless of who they are, people need to be treated with respect.

There are people on here from all walks of life, from all over the world. We are have different interests and areas of expertise and we need to work together to make this a better place where we can all learn from and help each other.

Amen

.

.

[Michael Ferner]

Not wishing to prolong this useless discussion, but it was Kurtis who first accused Don of being ignorant. And that in spite of the fact that Don had, correctly, identified the one-mile "trial" at the Fairgrounds as the first race, and not the whole 200-mile "reliability contest" of hauling, plowing, threshing etc. Next thing you'll know somebody will come here and expalin to us why the Glidden Tour or the New York Auto Show was a "race"...

The Germain, what do you want to know? It's all here or there, somewhere, not sure if I want to dig it up if all I can expect is abuse.

[White Brothers]

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by Michael Ferner

Not wishing to prolong this useless discussion, but it was Kurtis who first accused Don of being ignorant. And that in spite of the fact that Don had, correctly, identified the one-mile "trial" at the Fairgrounds as the first race, and not the whole 200-mile "reliability contest" of hauling, plowing, threshing etc. Next thing you'll know somebody will come here and expalin to us why the Glidden Tour or the New York Auto Show was a "race"...

The Germain, what do you want to know? It's all here or there, somewhere, not sure if I want to dig it up if all I can expect is abuse.

Originally Posted by Michael Ferner

The "Paris-Rouen Trial" or, more correctly, the Concours des Voitures sans Chevaux was not a race, it was a mass road test for want of a better word. The objective was to promote the usage and sales of cars by awarding prizes to the manufacturers who demonstrated their products. The distribution of the prizes was done by a jury, composed of journalists and engineers, and the main objectives were safety, practicality and economy - speed was not considered essential, except for a minimum speed target that was chosen (and eventually lowered), presumably merely for organisational reasons (i.e. to get the event over with in an acceptable time frame).

Of course, one main selling point of the new voiture automobile was its speed, and most manufacturers were keen to demonstrate the possibilities of the cars in that respect, so that there was a certain element of pride at stake from the beginning, but the trial was not timed as such as speed was never part of the regulations. Subsequent to the event, times of arrival were published, and used in many publications, but these were generally ignorant of the many compulsory stops on the way, and only very vaguely reflective of the actual speeds that had been achieved.

In short, to call that event a "race" is simply ignorant of facts. None of the competitors "were there to win a race", they were there to win a prize that was in no way connected to any speed objective. There was no race.

Ah, no. Actually a big NO to put it so bluntly.

I have never posted something accusing Don of being ignorant although it can be interpreted that way, depending on what side of the fence one is sitting.

Everything you mentioned in your description of the Concours des Voitures sans Chevaux is correct. My point was the 'race' between the builders of the vehicles, not in the trial or contest but during the actual building of the cars themselves. Unfortunately Vitesse and yourself have taken my comments out of context. I never did mention speed when i referred to the 1894 event but i did talk about it when on the subject of the 1878 Wisconsin contest/race.

Michael, i suggest you re-read the last paragraph in your post to see who is calling who ignorant. It's also bewildering to me why you don't wish to do something but go ahead and do it anyway.

I'm not here to argue, only to learn. What about you?
I would hope for the same but also to teach. You have done the latter so well up to this point, why stop now.

Now, onto the Germain and my interest. I'm not looking for a full description of the car to be written on these pages, although i won't argue against it, but a link of any sort guiding me in the right direction. I've searched but nothing relevant seems to be mentioned. I have a book here telling me the engine was of 5 liters and of Panhard influence but in computer land it's telling me it was a 4.2 liter. Again.

If you don't wish to help, well, i can understand, sort of.

Cheers.

[kurtis]

Originally Posted by T-Head

Photo one shows all of the parts laid out. The main jet is inside the vertical cylinder at the very bottom which is open and is the low speed venturi. The high speed jet is the yellow brass tube w/the dog leg just to the left and also on the bottom. At above 800 RPM the air that comes down thru the auxiliary air valve and passes over this jet draws in extra fuel in for higher speed operation in direct proportion to the speed.

Thanks. Another aspect that makes this thread like no other.

This Fletcher could be considered as an earlier version of a vacuum secondary carburetor.

BTW, did you find out any more on the Breese carb?

[T-Head]

Originally Posted by kurtis

Thanks. Another aspect that makes this thread like no other.

This Fletcher could be considered as an earlier version of a vacuum secondary carburetor.

BTW, did you find out any more on the Breese carb?

Thanks, but no. I did find a little info on the Breeze car which was assembled in the NYC area.

[White Brothers]

[fur biscuit]

Will let Harry talk about the carby, and I will post the pictures: here is a break down of a Miller/ Master barrel throat carb:

Patent:



Patent:




Patent:





Left side of carb, throttle arm:



Top of carb down, barrel closed (idle):



Top of carb down, barrel open, jet bar view:



Right side of carb, choke arm detail:



The whole mess apart:



Float bowl and throttle barrel:



Float bowl, choke plate (open) , and jet bar:



Up the barrel closed:



Up the barrel open:

[fur biscuit]

Originally Posted by Cris

It's an Offy 110. Runs Methanol at 15:1 compression ratio. Has been in the car for a long time.

Hey, by the way, guys from TNF...please try to refrain from bringing your old, un-won arguments over onto this site. This is a good thread and a few of you seem intent on picking scabs. The opinions and the semantics and the agendas are threatening to soil one of the better threads on this site.

Cris

Did I miss something? maybe need to fry a few silly new comers in the flames of the HAMB.

[twin6]

Re: post 2321. Jim, if you didn't have your sources at hand, you have an astonishing and accurate recollection. According to Dick Punnett's book, Racing on the Rim (1997) which chronicles much of the Daytona racing between 1903 and 1910, Croker's mechanic was Alexander Raoul. Newton Stanley was indeed a nephew of FO and FE Stanley. The account given was that Croker and Raoul were heading north from Daytona and overtook Stanley. As they did so, a wave forced Stanley to swerve left into their path. The Simplex rolled several times, and Raoul was killed instantly (Croker died the following morning). Stanley suffered a broken leg.

[kurtis]

Enough is enough gentlemen.

Let's get back to the discussion of auto racing.

Or i'll tell Ryan.

[kurtis]

Re: Crocker's accident.

This is The New York Times article the following day.

Very much what Jim stated.

[jimdillon]

Originally Posted by twin6

Re: post 2321. Jim, if you didn't have your sources at hand, you have an astonishing and accurate recollection. According to Dick Punnett's book, Racing on the Rim (1997) which chronicles much of the Daytona racing between 1903 and 1910, Croker's mechanic was Alexander Raoul. Newton Stanley was indeed a nephew of FO and FE Stanley. The account given was that Croker and Raoul were heading north from Daytona and overtook Stanley. As they did so, a wave forced Stanley to swerve left into their path. The Simplex rolled several times, and Raoul was killed instantly (Croker died the following morning). Stanley suffered a broken leg.

I wish my memory was that good. I collected some pictures of the beach racing on Ormond (1905) and had several pictures of the accident. I researched it a bit and found the newspaper article on the accident and a couple of other little blurbs on the accident and made some notes on it. Many of my notes are on 3x5 cards as I started doing research back when that was high tech I guess.

Some of the pictures are disappearing on the paper and I have preserved some of them, others are pretty well gone. They appear to be pretty original so figure better post them before they are gone as well.-Jim

[T-Head]

The carburetor is now back on the car and it is running well. You can see now why it was patinated as its cleanliness and bright and clean bronze color would have been out of place.

Now all I have to do is put a 100 miles on it and it will look totally undisturbed.

[Flipper]

Originally Posted by kurtis

First time i've seen that photo. Thanks Buildy.

This is the car as it sits today.

That is such a pretty car.

Anybody know the purpose of the reversed louvers in the tail section?

[ehdubya]

Originally Posted by Flipper

That is such a pretty car.

Anybody know the purpose of the reversed louvers in the tail section?

No but I think you can expect to see this and the other one getting their legs stretched together this summer.