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Old 07-01-2009, 02:41 PM   #1
sun down
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Default when was the first four barrel carb introduced

someone asked me this the other day, I had no idea and after looking it up
I was sort of surprised.... any idea without doing a search and even my search may have been wrong but I will go with it...

just trying to up my post count a little...lol
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:43 PM   #2
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

WCFB "Will Carter Four Barrel" i'm not 100% positive on the year, but my '58 Studebaker came with one stock. I'm sure they were out before '58 though...

EDIT: come to think of it... wasn't '52 the first year for the four barrel... it was still a WCFB... and '57 they came out with the Carter AFB "Aluminum Four Barrel"?
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Not sure myself but I have a '52 Packard in the shop with one.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:47 PM   #4
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

I have no clue if this is correct, but I read it was a Holley "toilet bowl" in late '54 or '55.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

The Stromberg 4A Aeroquad was produced from 1952-1954 and was Stromberg's only four barrel carburetor. It was used on Buick engines (that Olds and Cadillac borrowed for 1952, to Buick's displeasure).The 4A was probably the first four barrel carburetor, appearing shortly before the Carter WCFB . Here's an old thread http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s....php?p=3751329

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Old 07-01-2009, 03:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

buick didnt v-8 till mid 53,olds and caddy put one on in 52 called a 4GC they were rodchesters,wcfb also came out on caddys and olds models in 52 believe packard also had a 4 holer in 52
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Haystack Holley 4bbl in '54 for Ford, maybe earlier? I think Lincoln had them in '52 or '53.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

51-52 Buick Roadmaster, there is a 4bbl intake for the big straight eight.


I'd bet you can find one older though if you dig.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

looks like I might need to do more research but according to what I found it was the 55 ford/ Merc..........which surprised me ..
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Good question, never thought about that one before. (and, there's one more post for me.............)
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

looks like my first idea was wrong..
I found this from a Hemmings Motor article..

The biggest jump in horsepower could be found exclusively in the 1952 Roadmaster. The 320.2-cubic-inch engine with its 3.4375 x 4.3125 bore and stroke--unchanged since 1936--carried a four-barrel carburetor for the first, and only, time.

so we now have one for the Buick.. which is for sure prior to 55.
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:23 PM   #12
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Cadillac had a small base 4bbl WCFB just like the Buick and started in 52.
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Here's an early oddity that never quite happened, presumably quashed to keep within budget: Look at pics for patent 2104178.


http://www.google.com/patents/about?...=0&as_maxy_is=

This is a very important patent, covering the dual plane manifold adopted by Ford in 1934 as a two barrel with the Stromberg.
Note that the drawings call for a four barrel...vaguely drawn, apparently to be based on the big E Stromberg!
Ford went with the familiar EE two barrel, and no four barrel actually appeared as far as I know in the thirties.
This patent represents the birth of the modern manifold used henceforth on nearly all carbureted V engines...
1952 saw the trio of new four barrels from Rochester, Stromberg, and Carter, but it seems Ford and Bhnalite were considering pushing towards one probably from Stromberg in the early thirties.
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Sure looks like an early Offenhauser manifold Bruce. Do you suppose someone out in California got a copy of the drawings?
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:01 PM   #15
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Wouldn't surprise me...I knew Ford and Bohn aluminum collaborated on the 2 plane manifold, but I was shocked when I found the actual patent and saw the hypothetical four barrel! It even looks like the normal early fifties pattern dimensionally. I would assume suggesting such a non-existent carb probably involved some involvement at Stromberg with preliminary commitment to develop the hardware! Any carb company would have given at least a kidney and a lung to get the Ford contract, and of course Stromberg did supply Ford for the actual 2 barrel version.
I think the Carb sorta shown there ls based on the Licoln Stromberg, which looked about thus. The manifold cured the roughness that had been a part of V8's since their inception before WWI.
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

This could be a tricky question, depending on if the criteria were "four barrel" or "four-venturi".

As far as I am aware, the first production four-BARREL automotive carburetors in the USA were 1952. This included alphabetically Carter (WCFB), Rochester (4-GC), and Stromberg (4-A). Holley followed in 1953 with the 2140.

As an aside, I have both the Carter and Stromberg prototype four-barrel carbs in my "museum".

If the criteria is "four venturi", a whole can of worms is opened; as there were a number of multi-venturi one-barrel carbs produced back in the 1930's (and possibly earlier).

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Old 07-01-2009, 05:12 PM   #17
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Bruce - I have seen the patent before. Just for grins, I did a search on the Stromberg experimental files. I checked from July 1 1933 through July 1 1934, and there is no record of Stromberg having built a prototype four-barrel.

My take on the manifold was (and is) someone had done their homework based on the Seldon patent (no intent to produce, just want to collect royalties if someone does produce). Just my opinion, others will differ.

Jon.
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Chevrolet had a WCFB in 1955.
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Old 07-01-2009, 07:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Me and my Dad are putting together a '52 Buick Roadmaster right now, and it has the 4 barrel Stromberg Aeroquad. I'm fairly certain it's the first use of a 4 barrel by GM, not sure about industry-wide.
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Old 07-01-2009, 08:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

4bbl carbs more or less synched up with the introduction of overhead valve V8s and ended up with a staggered rollout across manufacturers.
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

The first four barrel that came on a standard American made production car was the Stromberg 4A which came on the '52 Buick Roadmaster (70 series). Buick was also the first manufacturer to offer hydraulic lifters ( '37? ).
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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Originally Posted by Dan1955 View Post
Chevrolet had a WCFB in 1955.
As did Desoto on the Fireflite 291 v8. Maybe even earlier on a Chrysler.
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

The Stromberg 4A Aeroquad was produced from 1952-1954 and was Stromberg's only four barrel carburetor. It was used exclusively on Buick V-8 engines. The 4A was probably the first four barrel carburetor, appearing shortly before the Carter WCFB
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:31 PM   #24
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

I heard that the guy that engineered the 2 carb setup on the 1941 Buicks was responsible for the 4 barrel design. Whether thats true or not the 4 bbl looked just like a pair of Strombergs siamesed together, same for the Carters.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

WW 2 aircraft had them before being retrofitted with fuel injection. I think a allison in the early p51 had 4 4barrells,, Its been a long long time so its hard to rember all the info,,
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:21 AM   #26
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Thumbs up Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Cadillac had its first 4 barrel (Carter and/or Rochester) as did Buick and Oldsmobile in 1952
Packard, in 1953 straight eight, V-8 in 55
Nash and Hudson used Packard's V-8 with 4 barrel
Lincoln and Mercury, 1954
Ford, Chevrolet, Pontiac, DeSoto, Plymouth, Studebaker, 1955
Chrysler, Dodge, 1954

Have I bored you yet?
GM made a bid deal over the four barrel in the Cadillac. It was Caddy's 50th anniversary. First year for dual exhausts and optional power steering.

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Old 07-02-2009, 06:44 AM   #27
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

The two most commonly used new four barrels today,the Holley 4150-4160 and the Edelbrock clone of the Carter AFB first appeared around 1957 or so.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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Originally Posted by k9racer View Post
WW 2 aircraft had them before being retrofitted with fuel injection. I think a allison in the early p51 had 4 4barrells,, Its been a long long time so its hard to rember all the info,,
The Allisons that I have seen have a BIG two barrel on the back before the supercharger, they have venturis but no float bowl as far as I know for inverted flight.
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

I know olds used the 4gc from rochester by '53 but maybe even before that.
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:46 PM   #30
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Will have to check...I have an early one, I think I identified it as '52 Olds in the Rochester manual.
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:48 PM   #31
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Std modern holley 4 bbls came out in the late 50's early 60's, '57 rings a bell
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:55 PM   #32
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

I think a version of the 600 4160 much like the familiar 1850 was used on '57 Fords and was the first use.
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Old 07-02-2009, 03:33 PM   #33
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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I think a version of the 600 4160 much like the familiar 1850 was used on '57 Fords and was the first use.
That's what i though wasnt sure, i belive i've seen 'em on t-birds
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Old 07-02-2009, 05:52 PM   #34
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Off topic:

Now that everyone is up on the four-barrel; how about the first three-barrel???

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Str...3bblbottom.jpg

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Stromberg3bblside.jpg



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Old 02-10-2010, 02:41 AM   #35
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Question Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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Originally Posted by carbking View Post
Off topic:

Now that everyone is up on the four-barrel; how about the first three-barrel???

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Str...3bblbottom.jpg

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Stromberg3bblside.jpg



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I know this is a pretty old thread, but.... What the heck is that 3-bbl. carb????!! Inquiring minds *NEED* to know!!!

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Old 02-10-2010, 03:27 AM   #36
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Would think the link would tell you. Only one I'm familiar with is a race carb that wasn't very successful. Looks like a 4bbl with a big oval secondary. 1970s era.
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:13 AM   #37
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

My old Buick had a 4 barrel in 1952, as far as I know it was one of the first.

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Old 02-10-2010, 07:22 AM   #38
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Quote:
Originally Posted by mart3406 View Post
--------------------
I know this is a pretty old thread, but.... What the heck is that 3-bbl. carb????!! Inquiring minds *NEED* to know!!!

Mart3406
=========================
The pictured Stromberg three-barrel was a prototype produced about 1935~1936. Its intended use was dual three-barrels on the V-12 Cadillac. However, Cadillac discontinued the V-12, and the three-barrel project was "mothballed".

I have the prototype in my museum.

Carter made a "three-barrel" AFB for Pontiac in 1963. Part number is 3636s. Measured CFM by flow test 939 at 1.5 in Hg, 1128 at 3.0 in Hg.

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Old 02-10-2010, 08:01 AM   #39
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Quote:
Originally Posted by mart3406 View Post
--------------------
I know this is a pretty old thread, but.... What the heck is that 3-bbl. carb????!! Inquiring minds *NEED* to know!!!

Mart3406
=========================
Its main purpose was to provide maximum airflow in situations (like NASCAR) where rules limited you to one carburetor. It's also the reason for that clearance notch in the plenum divider on an Edelbrock C3B intake.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:17 AM   #40
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

I had a "56" Dodge with a "hemi head, 4 barrel, torqueflite (push button, on the dash) that was totally stock.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:25 AM   #41
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

The Lincoln 317 y blocks got a 4 bbl Holley 2140 in 1953.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:33 AM   #42
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Had a '54 Merc with a "Towering Inferno" Holley 4bbl. "Teapot" carb. Also had a couple 3bbl's. Mechanical secondary, hit it too soon and you could hear the bog for miles! The only thing it worked on was a Racer Brown cammed 440 magnum. I even tried it on a wild little 283! After 5000 RPM it went insane, below that, nothin'!
The WCFB was a good, but small, carb, as was the early "rock catcher", but the teapot Holley was an abomination.
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:44 AM   #43
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

3 barrel Holly I don't know if I still have It after a shop fire , i had a 3 barrel holly about 1100 CFM , secondary was a big oval. poor response untill 5000 rpm.
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Old 02-10-2010, 09:44 AM   #44
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Actually, from all the data I have read the Stromberg 4a Aero was indeed the first production 4 barrel carbie used, as has been stated above, on the '52 thru'54 Buicks exclusively and from there were used on aircraft engines, hense the verbage "aero". Next up was the WCFB, and allyall know the rest. It is also interesting to note, that the 4a was a hotrodders choice for a while and one of the reasons why so many early 2x4 intakes had the small 4 barrel bolt pattern , as did the 4a.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:03 AM   #45
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

When did the Olds get a 4bbl? they went overhead in what...1949? I thought they had a 4bbl early on.

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Old 02-10-2010, 10:08 AM   #46
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Quote:
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When did the Olds get a 4bbl? they went overhead in what...1949? I thought they had a 4bbl early on.

Frank

Olds started offering 4bbl carbs in 1952. Both Rochester 4GC and Carter WCFB carbs were used.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:17 AM   #47
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

I ran a WCFB off of a 56 Chrysler in my 8-BA flattie for several years back in the mid to late 50's. Still have it and the flattie.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:48 AM   #48
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Stromberg had a 4A carburetor for the 1955 Dodge, until Carter came in with a lower bid.

All of the early (1952~1954) four barrel carbs used the almost square (3.75 x 3.875) flange. Some models were switched to the rectangular pattern in 1955. Not everyone switched at the same time. Some makes continued to use the 3.75 x 3.875 pattern up through about 1975.

As to bog on the three barrels: the Carter three barrel was one to one linkage (the primary and secondary opened together). The carb was designed STRICTLY for NASCAR use on the 421 Pontiac. We have set up a couple for street use, and modified the linkage such that the carb actually had a primary and a secondary. This is quite easy to do by transfering the secondary linkage from a Carter Competition Series 4760s to the Carter three-barrel 3636s.

The Holleys came in two sizes (950 and 1050). Interestingly (at least to me), the Holley 1050 is smaller than the Carter which flowed 939. Truth in advertising??? Holley used vacuum secondaries, although there were aftermarket gear sets to convert to mechanical secondary.

Jon.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:20 AM   #49
mart3406
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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Originally Posted by carbking View Post

The pictured Stromberg three-barrel was a prototype produced about 1935~1936. Its intended use was dual three-barrels on the V-12 Cadillac. However, Cadillac discontinued the V-12, and the three-barrel project was "mothballed". I have the prototype in my museum. Carter made a "three-barrel" AFB for Pontiac in 1963. Part number is 3636s. Measured CFM by flow test 939 at 1.5 in Hg, 1128 at 3.0 in Hg.

Jon.
-----------------------------
Thanks for that. That's the first I've ever heard of the Stromberg 3-bbl. Great pics of it on your link too! That is one unique piece! It's too bad Stromberg canceled the carb after Cadillac decided to drop the V12. I imagine in the midst of the depression though, that other than the discontinued Cadillac V12, Stromberg probably didn't see much of a market for it with other manufacturers. If it had ever been produced, a pair of them would be so, so cool, mounted sideways on an inline 6!!!

I love odd-ball and experimental and prototype stuff - like your Stromberg and AFB 3-bbls. The closest I've ever come having any really cool 'weird' stuff', was when for a few weeks back in the late- 70's I owned a pair of Autolite inline 4-bbls mounted on a - 'modified to take two of them' - Ford "Cross-Boss" Boss 302 cross ram from an early 70's pro-stocker. At the time, the carbs and intake were considered just so much 'obsolete racing junk' and I think I bought the whole set-up, for $350. Somebody wanted it more than me though and I sold it a few weeks later for $500! I wish I still had it now though! About your museum - I'm wondering what other weird and wonderful carbs you have in your collection? If you have pictures of your more unusual stuff, that would make for a great new thread here on the HAMB!

Mart3406
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:53 AM   #50
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

I believe the carb that was on my '52 Buick was a Carter, I am pretty sure it wasn't a Stromberg - however it may have been replace before it got into my hands.
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Old 02-11-2010, 07:03 AM   #51
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Mart - glad you enjoyed the pictures of the Stromberg. While we have a LOT of experimental stuff, most of it is pre-war. Here are a couple of pictures of the Carter three barrel:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/SD3636bottom.jpg

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/SD3636top.jpg

Also have some two barrels that flow 900 CFM, and an experimental job that flows over 1200 CFM, but no pictures at present.

Other experimental units in my "museum"

Holley auto choke carburetor for model T Ford
Kingston two barrel for 1934 Ford V-8
Stewart-Warner prototype for Ford T
Holley prototype for 4 cylinder Chevrolet
Holley prototype for V-12 Lincoln

Many others, but most are older stuff.

Jon.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:35 AM   #52
HEATHEN
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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Originally Posted by Probesport View Post
I believe the carb that was on my '52 Buick was a Carter, I am pretty sure it wasn't a Stromberg - however it may have been replace before it got into my hands.
It was probably the original carb--Buick used both Carter and Stromberg from '52-'54.
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Old 02-13-2010, 02:34 AM   #53
Kandy Drippa
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

my 53 cadillac 331 has a Carter 4bbl, also got a Rochester 4bbl with it too
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:02 PM   #54
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Buick offered "Dual Compound Carburetion", consisting of two, two barrel
carburetors and a split exhaust manifold on their OHV straight eight in 1941 and
'42. On the 320 cube engine, it was rated at 165 hp. Cadillac, with 150 hp from
their flathead V8, complained to GM brass that this was an insult to their (Cadillac's) status. With our involvement in WWII, and the halting of passenger car production, Caddy's whine became a moot point. Apparently Buick continued to expirament, and a Buick engineer named Braun developed the four barrel carburetor, which made its production debut on the 1952 Buick Roadmaster's
320 cid OHV straight eight.

First four barrel carburetor: Buick, 1952.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:39 PM   #55
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

a little off topic sorta
i bought a 1927 Garwood boat that had a V12 flathead with gargood cast on it
this had a small 4 barrel on it
at that time they said this was the original engine in it
the boat was a Rum Runner that was run outside the gate bridge San Fransisco to
Pt Reyse area
i think it was 33'
right after purchased some one with lots of $ bought it from me
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:44 PM   #56
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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The two most commonly used new four barrels today,the Holley 4150-4160 and the Edelbrock clone of the Carter AFB first appeared around 1957 or so.
According to Smokey Yunick, he and Murray Jensen were working on the 4150 design in his shop in 1957. I know theres something very wrong with the grammer in that sentence, so I am expecting to get smacked by the HAMB grammer police...
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:47 PM   #57
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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Would think the link would tell you. Only one I'm familiar with is a race carb that wasn't very successful. Looks like a 4bbl with a big oval secondary. 1970s era.
Actually the 3bbl disappeared because 4500's were cheaper to make. Thats what I heard anyway. I have 2 3bbls, and a couple dominators, so I dont have a vested interest one way or the other.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:49 PM   #58
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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Mart - glad you enjoyed the pictures of the Stromberg. While we have a LOT of experimental stuff, most of it is pre-war. Here are a couple of pictures of the Carter three barrel:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/SD3636bottom.jpg

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/SD3636top.jpg

Also have some two barrels that flow 900 CFM, and an experimental job that flows over 1200 CFM, but no pictures at present.

Other experimental units in my "museum"

Holley auto choke carburetor for model T Ford
Kingston two barrel for 1934 Ford V-8
Stewart-Warner prototype for Ford T
Holley prototype for 4 cylinder Chevrolet
Holley prototype for V-12 Lincoln

Many others, but most are older stuff.

Jon.
I have seen the carter 3bbl before, not sure where, but you see that odd-shaped throttle plate once, you arent likely to forget it any time soon.
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:55 PM   #59
falcongeorge
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

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Stromberg had a 4A carburetor for the 1955 Dodge, until Carter came in with a lower bid.

All of the early (1952~1954) four barrel carbs used the almost square (3.75 x 3.875) flange. Some models were switched to the rectangular pattern in 1955. Not everyone switched at the same time. Some makes continued to use the 3.75 x 3.875 pattern up through about 1975.

As to bog on the three barrels: the Carter three barrel was one to one linkage (the primary and secondary opened together). The carb was designed STRICTLY for NASCAR use on the 421 Pontiac. We have set up a couple for street use, and modified the linkage such that the carb actually had a primary and a secondary. This is quite easy to do by transfering the secondary linkage from a Carter Competition Series 4760s to the Carter three-barrel 3636s.

The Holleys came in two sizes (950 and 1050). Interestingly (at least to me), the Holley 1050 is smaller than the Carter which flowed 939. Truth in advertising??? Holley used vacuum secondaries, although there were aftermarket gear sets to convert to mechanical secondary.

Jon.
The booster venturi in the primary side of the carter is bulkier, and presents more of a obstacle to incoming air than the downlegs used in the primary side of the Holley 3bbls. That probably accounts for the difference in flow numbers. Theres more to airflow numbers than just venturi/throttle plate area. I have a 650 double pumper that picked up 40 cfm on my flow bench just from switching from nozzle bar boosters to undercut downlegs.
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Old 01-15-2012, 12:44 PM   #60
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Any photos of the V12 Gar Wood flathead? That would be neat to see! Both the engine, and the beautiful wood of the boat itself! Thanks.
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Old 01-15-2012, 03:14 PM   #61
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced

Dad was in mechanic school in Calgary in about 1954. They got the first 4 barrel in and the instructor had the class gather around while he took it apart. A very solemn occasion.
Dad had the top off a spark plug in his pocket which he slipped into the parts tray.

Everything went according to plan until there was one part left. The plug top. The instructor was baffled for a while till he realized he had been punked.
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Old 01-15-2012, 03:44 PM   #62
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Default Re: when was the first four barrel carb introduced



The Carter looks so happy....
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