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Where did I go wrong on my Floating Hubcaps???

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by COS, Jul 1, 2009.

  1. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
    Member
    from KCMO

    So I did it made me some floating hubcaps!! Love them!! BUT I do have a problem!! They are eating outer wheel bearings!!!! I have had to replace them twice on the Drivers side and once on the Passenger side,almost lost the wheel that time :confused:...

    So here is the set up tell me what I did wrong.. (got all the info I could off this great site)

    1. I drilled and taped the spindle and fitted 3/8 fine grade 8 all thread.

    2. Cross drilled it for the cotter once in spindel then I welded it in place...

    3. Made three inch disc (with rubber on the hubcap side) welded nut to it jam nut it to all thread just past dust cap


    4. Slid hubcap on

    5. Have matching disk in side 4-bar flipper with nut and rubber to sandwich the hubcap between the this and the first disk...

    6. Have flush mount valve stems

    7. cut all mounting tabs of caps to get a nice close fit to wheel!!!

    Works great looks like cap is on the wheel even up close!!

    NOW the problem...

    THE F#$KING cotter pins keep breaking coming out and then the spindle nut backs off then the shit hits the fan!!!

    WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!!!
     
  2. ka-zoo
    Joined: Oct 20, 2004
    Posts: 509

    ka-zoo
    Member

    pics, gotta see pics of this setup.
    I have no advice, it just sounds AWESOME!
     
  3. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 17,390

    Squablow
    Member

    The original spindle nut is still in place, right? Your new nut on the all-thread part isn't actually holding the hub on, is it? Seems like you're getting hub pressure which is making the nut want to spin off.
     
  4. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
    Member
    from KCMO

    Cap mounted...


    [​IMG]

    Cap hanging

    [​IMG]

    Back side of flipper..

    [​IMG]


    Second disk behind cap...

    [​IMG]

    Jam nut and dust cap...

    [​IMG]


    Ugly stick...

    [​IMG]


    This is on the drivers side the passenger side did look like this before I tried to get to the Rocket in Fort Scott :rolleyes:
     

  5. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
    Member
    from KCMO

    Here are the pics above..



    Yes using castle nut/cotter pin that came with the Hedits kit... The all thread is screwed in to the end of the spindle (drilled and taped it) the cotter pind goes through the all thread also.. and then welded around end of the spindle in the hopes to keep vibration down...
     
  6. r8odecay
    Joined: Nov 8, 2006
    Posts: 787

    r8odecay
    Member

    wouldn't you want a wafer bearing outboard of the dust cap?
     
  7. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,817

    BJR
    Member

    Does the washer behind the castelated nut have a tang on the inside of the hole that goes into a groove in the spindle? It should have, that's what keeps it from spinning with the bearing and if missing it may be what's causing the cotter pin to shear off as the washer tries to spin the nut. Brian
     
  8. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
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    from KCMO

    I wonder is I just have too much weight out there for the 3/8 all thread??

    Was thinking of welding a threaded tube aka extend the spindle out and attach to that???

    I was wondering about that... I called Heidts when I was instaling it and they said that when using GM rotors on Mustang II that you have use their special nut that is thiner to make it all work together and now there is not a tang on it...
     
  9. cleatus
    Joined: Mar 1, 2002
    Posts: 2,277

    cleatus
    Member
    from Sacramento

    You may want to PM 'mikes51' - he has had floating caps on his Merc for years.
     
  10. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
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    from KCMO


    WTF is a wafer bearing??
     
  11. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,957

    gas pumper
    Member

    Wheel bearing adjustment too loose or too tight?

    The inner race of the bearing needs to be a slip fit on the spindle so it can actually rotate a little as the hub turns. If it is a tight fit it will eat the bearing.
     
  12. cleatus
    Joined: Mar 1, 2002
    Posts: 2,277

    cleatus
    Member
    from Sacramento

    It looks like you could just mount the caps to the rim like normal and then just have your flipper 'float'
    That would take some weight off.
     
  13. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
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    from KCMO


    I will try that but I just looked him up and it looks as if he has not started a thread since 06':eek:
     
  14. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
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    Would this make the cotter pin fail????????????
     
  15. brewsir
    Joined: Mar 4, 2001
    Posts: 3,278

    brewsir
    Member

    Little late now but I don't see any reason to have welded the 3/8 to the spindle...the cotter pin would have kept it from trying to come loose.
    I am also thinking that the washer needs a tang..not the nut, but the washer itself should have a tang that rides in the groove in the spindle.
    The weight of the hubcap has nothing to do with it unless it looks like it is spinning the dustcap somehow...I think you did a fine job and it has nothing to do with the problem....did you have any problems before you added the floaters?
     
  16. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,817

    BJR
    Member

    No tang on the washer will make the cotter pin fail. Think about it, every car I have ever worked on or seen has had grooved front spindles and a tang on the washer that goes between the nut and bearing. The purpose of the tang is to keep the washer from spinning with the bearing, should the inner race of the bearing start to spin under load. GM, Ford and all the rest have been doing this for ever, there must be a reason or the bean counters would have put a stop to it. The other thing you may try is to clean off the spindle and the inside of the bearing where it goes over the spindle and use some locktite bearing retainer on it. This should keep the inner race of the bearing from spinning.
     
  17. Hackerbilt
    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 6,254

    Hackerbilt
    Member

    No washer with a tang?
    That can't work.
    It'll keep turning your nuts....

    HEIDTS can't be marketing something like that...??? Seriously!?!?
     
  18. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,957

    gas pumper
    Member

    I don't think so. but if the washer behind the nut don't have the tab, it could put stress on the cotter pin? As the washer might try to rotate the nut then shear the cotter. That would take a lot of force.

    If the tab is there, there can't be enough movement to shear the pin, IMO


    I would think the cotter pin going thru the spindle extension would be enough to locate and hold the entension, even without the weld.

    I always admired the floating hubcaps on customs. We don't see them much on the east coast.
     
  19. r8odecay
    Joined: Nov 8, 2006
    Posts: 787

    r8odecay
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    Sorry, speaking Okie,...thrust bearing.
     
  20. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
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    from KCMO



    I thought this was odd too!! I have the Heidts Installation Instructions in front of me from there site... NO TANG WASHER!! The washer is built in to their special nut???? Why is this?? They say it is for clearance issues using a chevy rotor on mustang II spindles....
     
  21. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
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    Just had a thought how about at threaded tube the same diameter as the end of the spindle welded to it that is threaded but will still allow the castle nut to slide pass it to thread on the spindle???

    Then attach cap and spinner to welded on tube no cotter pin involved...
     
  22. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
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    I started out with a jam nut to the spindle would not stay tight and thought that the vibration was what was causing the cotter pin to fail... so I welded it to keep it from vibrating...
     
  23. Hackerbilt
    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 6,254

    Hackerbilt
    Member

    Ahhhh...how can a tang be built in? How would you screw the nut on????

    I've seen self locking nuts on spindles but only on the type that you torque to a predetermined level, as the bearings use a spacer between them so that bearing adjustment is completely unnecessary. The required clearance is actually machined into the unit.
    Even most of those will use some form of additional locking such as an outside cage with a cotter pin (Most FWD) or have a nut with a lock flange you peen over into the groove with a punch or small chisel...like on some output shafts for 4x4's.

    I'm actually shocked if your right about NO locking at all...other than a soft cotter pin!!!!
    Does the nut have a setscrew or anything that you might have missed???
     
  24. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,817

    BJR
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    Have you called Heidts and told them what was happening? I don't see how your current set up can work with or with out hub caps. You need the tanged washer and grooved spindle or it will sheer cotter pins.
     
  25. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,957

    gas pumper
    Member

    I really think you need to get a tang washer in there.

    So the hub is acutally too wide for the spindle lenght. Mickey Mouse street rod shit.

    I would...bore the hub where the outer race of the outer bearing sits. Same diameter and deeper to get a washer with a tang and then a normal castle nut on there. Maybe 3/16 to 1/4 should do it if there is enough depth and thickness left in the hub to do this. Simple lathe job.
     
  26. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,817

    BJR
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    Another thought, you could try a hardened roll pin of the correct size in the cotter pin hole. The problem is if these fixes don't work you could loose a wheel and someone could be killed while you are testing them.
     
  27. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,957

    gas pumper
    Member

    Does the spindle have the keyway cut for the tang washer????
     
  28. COS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 729

    COS
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    from KCMO

    No tang built in... See pics attached just got the new ones in the mail form HEIDTS!!!


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  29. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,817

    BJR
    Member

    There can't be a tang built in as it's part of the nut and the whole purpose of the tang is to keep the nut from spinning!
     

    Attached Files:

  30. I'm left wondering if there isn't a bearing issue. A cotter should be able to resist turning as the inner bearing should not really be trying to turn, unless there is a bearing problem such as lack of grease or undue wear causing the inner bearing to seize slightly to the rollers.

    Seriously, have you ever tried backing off a castellated nut with a seized cotter in it?? If you've got this much force transmitting through the inner bearing to the nut, thereby breaking a cotter key, you need to go through the whole spindle, every bearing and clearance.

    Cosmo
     

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