HA/GR #18 '09 build thread Link to '10 build thread. Link to '07/'08 build thread. Name: "Barn Job #18" (Build photos link) Status: Racing Team: "Geezerspeed" Engine: '60 225" Chrysler "slant" six Carbs: three HIF6 SUs Gearbox: '62 Valiant 3 sp. Rear end: '62 Valiant 7.25", 4.10>1 Wheelbase: 124" ET: 12.941 MPH: 105.50 Records: '07 first running HA/GR, left coast. '08 winner, 1st HA/GR (unofficial) "meet", left coast. '08 quickest HA/GR, left coast. '08 fastest HA/GR, left coast. '09 2nd place, ANRA I Open Wheel class. '09 1st place, ANRA II HA/GR sub meet. '09 2nd place, ANRA II Open Wheel class. '09 1st 12 sec HA/GR run, left coast.
Howdy, Well, I finally poked some holes in the last of the brackets and mounts, nothing left to do for the season but race'er. It'll be next "winter" that we'll tear'er down and do the frame. I'll put up some more build pictures and get the racing album sorted out & linked in this week.
OK, '09's ANRA 1, Dragfest and the Antique Nat's are in the bag, good times all. ANRA 2's next weekend, we'll run it with what we have now. We've made some changes to the carbs and pipes in order to accomodate the flattening stock cam (average of -.030" @ lobe so far ) 'til we can finish building the real engine (hopefully for ANRA 3). I'll have some updates in both the build and race albums later this week.
Bob, we're targeting the build mainly for mid-range and hope to see high 12s at the end of it. That'll be with tire and gear adjustments to suit however the engine comes out. We want as strong a reliable engine as we can build. The gearboxes and rears we're using we have multiple back-ups for but our engine's a one shot deal for us. We know it won't be chasing records but we neither have that sort of hobby money nor are we so inclined.
Is the new cam a Solid (forgive me if they all are, I'm no expert on the leaning tower of power). If it is are you going to use (or are they available for) lifters with the lube hole in the middle of the contact face to 'directly lube' the lobe? Or a parkerize job perhaps? I ask as I'm wondering what your solution is for the cams going flat (or do you think they were bad when you got them?)?
Erik, I'd suggest anyone running a flat tappet cam get on the internet and read all they can about the changes in engine oils since 1996. Do a Google search for "ZDDP". Prior to 1996 the oils available had a minimum of 1200 parts per million (PPM) of zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP). These are anti-wear minerals that help keep metal parts that rub against each other from wearing. Unfortunately these minerals also degrade catalic converters. Since the federal government mandated the catalic converters had to be covered by the new car warranty for 80,000 miles the OEM's required the oil manufacturers reduce the ZDDP to protect the cats. Since then cats have to meet a 150,000 mile warranty and the ZDDP has been reduced to the 400-600 PPM range. That isn't enough ZDDP to keep your cam from wearing and going flat. If you run a flat tappet cam I'd suggest you keep the valve spring pressure to the very minimun required for the rpm your engine will be turning. Also, use a racing oil with more than 1200 PPM of ZDDP or add Comp Cams ZDDP addative to your oil. Don't use a Fram filter. On our GMC with the aluminum roller rockers, flat tappets, SB Chevy valves and long and heavy pushrods I run #100 on the seat and #300 at 0.620" lift and turn the engine 6000 rpm without valve float. I'm pretty sure I could reduce the spring pressure even more. So far we haven't had a problem. Ron
Thanks. I'm up on the ZDDP issue, but didn't mention it as I didn't know what oil he'd been running. Just wondering what he chose for his fix (if he has gotten that far). FWIW I have gotten in the habbit of using the zinc addatives in oil changes and getting any flat tappet cams parkerized (sp?). I had a cam go bad shortly after starting that (the addative, not the parkerize) but I believe it was already on it's way south, once the damage is done, no ammount of 'addative' is going to help. For those that don't know, ZDDP also acts as a corrosion inhibitor, might be handy in an engine that runs infrequently (like a hot rod that's parked for the winter, or a HAMB Gas Rail maybe??).
Ron.. In my little 198"Chev. I have a flat tappet cam, 580 lift and 284 deg. duration. And George at Clay Smith recomended 140# at the seat. And why not a Fram.??. Thats what Ive always used..Whats the problem with them.??? ..Dick..
Basically the present engine's a bone stock '68 (twin of the '60 developed 225 with only a slightly better factory cam) that we put in to work out the chassis, running and handling functions of the new car during the first season at lower speeds. As such it was tired even before we got it and had been run with the wrong oils (as are many old engines now), doing some damage to the cam & lifters. No problem as it was only intended for the first season's use. Our subsequent running has incurred the expected further cam/lifter damage, to the point where it's over .030" below even the '60's lobes. We'd hoped to be able to start this season with the "real" engine but such, at times, are life. We still have a chance to have it for "Cool August Nights" but if that doesn't turn out it'll wait 'til next spring. I'm booked for the float for the last few months of the year. Slants only came with solids in the time slot HA/GR rules cover so we're sticking with that in our engine build. On a personal level, we feel slants are (correctly, as stand-ins for '50s sixes) at the limit of the rules "edges" and I shouldn't build ours past what was commonly at the strip on low-bucks cars of the early '50s period. Thus rollers, one-off custom pistons & rods, etc, aren't for us any more than quads or slicks would be. I don't recall center-hole oiling lifters on slants but that won't be necessary at any rate, there are a few "tricks" from the era that'll get the oiling job done nicely. We use Castrol's new "Classic Cars" synthetic brand (tailored for flat tappet engines), as I do in the Toad. Don't know if they're using Zinc & Phosphorus in it or a substitute but so far, so good. I figure it'll prove out (or not) in daily street use before it can harm the Barn Job's new engine. I may do an additive anyway, as a precautionary measure for the first fill (I'll have to check if they're compatible with synthetics). Thingy, a few folks've had occasional problems with Fram's filter material coming loose and wandering about the system, at times causing trouble. I've not seen it, nor heard of it first hand but the stories are told ......
ThingyM, In most cases I recommend you use the springs recommended by the cam mfg. However in my engine nothing was close to stock and nothing was available to compare to, so I went with what I felt would work with my combination of parts. So far, so good. Too often engine builders worry about valve float and increase spring pressure to be safe. You can get by with that with roller lifters but not all the time with flat tappets. I have personally seen 3 engines destroyed by Fram filters. When they were cut apart the insides looked like they had been beated with a Mixmaster egg beater. In fact, prior to cutting them apart the filter material was sticking out of the center hole. End results: no oil pressure. The Tech Editor of Chevy High Performance Magazine recommended not using Fram filters in the magazine about 2 years ago. I think he kinda got his tit in the wringer for making the statement. When the topic comes up on SpeedTalk.com the hardcore engine builders recommend not using Fram filters. I recommend Wix filters on the engines we build. When I drink beer I like Bud Lite. I'm sure there are lots of others that think it tastes bad. Different strokes for different folks. Whatever works for you. Ron
Second on the Wix, that's what I use both street and strip. Don't drink so I can't speak to the Bud, lite or heavy.
Well, ANRA II's in the books and it was a blast. I had a notion that a worn cam would be worn mostly on the lift face and the top, thus would be a lower ramp angle and less total lift but with more duration. I reasoned this should result in less "launch" of the valve train and I could tighten up the lash to get it to follow what cam was left better. In a nutshell, it worked. Less lift, but with a softer "throw" and a wider effective lobe and I got a lot of it back for these races. Ran a best ET only .107 slower than our previous best and even squeezed 1.03 more mph out of the top end. Now that's soldiering on ....... The cam kit came in while I was gone and we'll be getting started on the real engine shortly. Perhaps even have it in for August.
Ron... You got me to thinking now...I've lost a couple of engines in my Fiat Altered. And signs have pointed to not enough oil. But we do know that was not the case,As we had plenty of oil pressure and Kendall Oil..Hmmmmmm. Maybe Wix next time.
Dick, ZDDP is absolutely required in the oil if your running a flat tappet cam and even helps other parts of the engine resist wear. However, it's a sacrificial material and requires more frequent oil changes than conventional oil. Ron
My Fiat engine is a full roller motor..Oil and filter changed after every 4th pass.. But I do have a flat tappet in the HA/GR and will be looking at something different for oil AND FILTER....
Side issue at the meet, I got the guys to open the scales and weighed the car at looooooooong last. Disappointingly heavy at 1432 lbs wet. I'll be looking to do a bit of Jenny Craigin' on'er this year and early next (after the parade). And some on me as well.
I got this picture from the photographer at the spring ANRA meet, think I'll shrink it a bit and use it as my header for this thread as well.
That is so cool, an old style digger at a legendary track. Congratulations! It was nice of your team to have their fathers pose behind the car.
Well folks, We finally picked up our build engine cores, the specific block and the specific head we wanted, good clean pieces both. I'll be doing the block work here and will do the prep work on the head prior to sending it out for some machining (already stripped it and fished out the casting wires). Then back here for a spot of porting and final assembly. We're going to pull the very nice stock cam out of'er and pop it in the present stock engine when we swap'em. That engine'll then be set up for some eventual pure stock 1 barrel & 2 barrel record attempts. I'll try to get some preliminary pictures in the album next week.
Pulled the nice stock cam from the build engine, miked it and found it to be an early factory grind repro. I'm going to try to get it into the present engine for the August ANRA meet so we can start on that program. One result is that we won't have the build engine in 'til next season. I still need to update the album.
The Jalopy Journal
