Electroysis Rust Removal

What do you need to make this work? Not much, really:

• A large non-conductive container that will hold the part in water - A Rubbermaid tub, a plastic bucket, or a large non-metal trash can all work great as long as they don't leak.
• A battery charger or other source of 12V DC power.
• Wires or cables to connect the electrodes together
• Sacrificial electrodes - iron re-bar works great, stainless steel is very bad (and the result is illegal and dangerous).
• Arm & Hammer LAUNDRY Soda, also known as washing soda.
• Some chains or steel wire to suspend the part in the solution - copper wire is bad and messy.
• Water

The basics are pretty simple.

1. Find a container big enough to hold your part, plus some room to spare for the electrodes - they must not touch the part for this to work.
2. Fill the container with water and add 1/3 to 1/2 cup laundry soda per every 5 gallons of water. Mix thoroughly.
3. Position the sacrificial electrodes around the edge of the container and clamp them in place so that you have at least 4" of electrode above the water to connect to. The more the merrier - this is essentially a "line of sight" process between the part and the electrodes.
4. Wire all of the electrodes together so they are, electrically speaking, one big electrode. Make sure all connections are on clean metal and sufficiently tight to work.
5. Suspend your part in the solution using the wire/chains so it is not touching the bottom and is not touching any electrodes. The part must be electrically connected to the support mechanism and not connected to the electrodes for this to work.
6. Attach the battery charger NEGATIVE lead to the part and the

1. POSITIVE lead to the electrodes. Do not get this backwards! If you do, you'll use metal from your part to de-rust your electrodes instead of the other way around -the positive electrodes are sacrificial and will erode over time. That's how the water becomes iron-rich.
   [*]Double check everything to be sure the right things are touching, the wrong things are not touching, and the cables are hooked up correctly.
   [*]Turn on the power - plug in the charger and turn it on.

Within seconds you should see a large volume of tiny bubbles in the solution - these bubbles are oxygen and hydrogen (very flammable!). The rust and gunk will bubble up to the top and form a gunky layer there. More gunk will form on the electrodes - after some amount of use, they will need to be cleaned and/or replaced - the electrodes give up metal over time. That's why re-bar is such a nice choice - it's cheap and easy to get in pre-cut lengths.
The process is self-halting - when there is no more rust to remove, the reaction stops. This is handy because you don't have to monitor it, and because you can do large parts where they are not totally submersed at one time (aka, by rotating them and doing half at a time) without worrying about "lines" in the final part.
Once you are done, the part should immediately be final cleaned and painted - the part is very susceptible to surface rust after being removed from the solution. There will be a fine layer of black on the part that can be easily removed, and once it is removed, the part can be primed/painted as needed.

Safety Precautions


You're playing with serious stuff here, so stay safe. It's not rocket science, but if you're new to this, you might not know all of this - so read up before you do any of this.

• This process produces highly flammable and explosive hydrogen gas (remember the Hindenburg?), so do it outside, or in some other well ventilated area. Hydrogen is lighter than air (like natural gas), so it will collect near the ceiling - not sink to the floor like some other flammable vapors will (like propane and gasoline). If you have open flames near this (Hint: gas appliances like water heaters and furnaces have pilot lights!) you will most likely severely injure or kill yourself (and others near you) and become a contender for the Darwin Awards in the process.
• Assuming you used re-bar and steel wire/chain like you were told to, the waste water resulting from this is iron-rich - it's perfectly safe to pour it out onto the grass and your lawn will love it. Beware of ornamental shrubs that don't like iron-rich soil though, unless you like making your wife mad at you.
• Make sure the battery charger (or whatever source of power you use) stays dry. All of the usual cautions about any electrical device in a wet environment apply here.
• The solution is electrically "live" - it is a conductor in this system. Turn off the power before making adjustments or sticking your hands into the solution. You can get a mild shock if you stick your hands into the water with the power on.
• The solution is fairly alkaline and will irritate your skin and eyes. Use gloves and eye protection. Immediately wash off any part of your body the solution comes into contact with with plenty of fresh water.
• Don't use stainless steel for the electrodes. The results are toxic and illegal to dump out.
• Don't use copper for the electrodes and anything else in the water - the results are messy.

If you are unsure of any of this or unsure about your safety - STOP! Get help before you do something stupid. Use common sense, be smart about what you're doing, and stay safe so you can finish your restoration project and enjoy it.

 

Bitchin', cheap rust removal
Will this process just remove rust or does it damage paint as well?

 

Cool! Thanks for the tip. I'm guessing that on a heavily rusted part this process will still leave pitting, won't it?

BTW, what does it create when stainless steel is used? Any idea?

 

I experimented with this last weekend. I only used one electrode and found that the line of sight effect is true

Dave

 

hey good tech mate
i've used this process heaps of times and it works realy realy well but you have to be carefull when doing the 'half at a time' method can leave 'tide' marks if not carefull.
a good tip that a old fella gave me is to use a piece of stainless sheet as one big electrode lining the container. this gives a large electrode area and the stainless wont break down as quickly as reo bar.

sorry for the hijack just thought i would pass on some tips that i was given.

james

 

Good info but we've been yapping on about this method many times here.
Do a search and you might find even more info and some great examples and methods.

I've attached a couple of shots of the bed sides for my truck.

Look into molasses-dip too.

James.. you didn't read the whole thing. Stainless = bad. Cadmium is produced (along with some other nasties)... bad stuff.

 

I have used this for a few years for degreasing and rust. I think you overplay the danger not that one should be careless. But comparing the Hindenburg to a cleaning tank? You would be very hard pressed to get an explosion here. The solution is just soap basically and unless you have rabies and are hydrophobic it is no worse than washing your hands. It works much better if you include a battery in the cicuit with the battery charger . I use an old torsion bar for my electrode. since you are plating the electrode essentialy it will last longer than you will. I remove it and wipe it off after every job. I also skim the water with a cloth net which removes the floatsam. I got a 45 gal plastic drum for free from an alky darg racers . it will hold a 440 block even. Stainless contains nickel whch is why it is recommended not to use it.as it can show up on your part so it should NOT be used . The process though is a good method. Not stinky and relatively safe. because the container is open and well ventilaed because of that the gases disapate before they can accumulate in signifcant amounts. It does work well. of that there is no discussion. We took a 318 poly head off the car and tanked it this way using a runnung vehicle to provide the power . it two hours it was just as though it was hot tanked and ready for rebuilding. Even removed the paint. We wiped it off with a rag and blew it dry. That was the first time we ever did it and was a few years ago now. I have been pleased with it since. Also works well for cleaning pistons etc.
Don

 

A car battery in the circuit sure does add some amps! You need heavier cables that way and you really could feel a jolt so don't stick your hands in while the power is flowing.
Also too many amps and the process is too fast... you introduce hydrogen into the metal, causing hydrogen embrittlement and make cracking easier.
Cooking (heating in an oven) the part or waiting a week or so gets rid of it.
Things like spindles would be a concern for that.
I discovered that personally. I found old body metal is "hard" to form right after this method (which is technically 'reverse electrolysis'). After a couple of days it seemed to be reasonably gone and the panels were 'softer'.
Less amps means a slower job but less embrittlement.
Degrease and descale first and the process takes less time.
Oh.. if you cover the container while the process is going you could gather enough hydrogen to make a "poof" but probably not an 'explosion'. Still.. be safe.
Electricity and water should scare you more. Some people just shouldn't be around electricity at the best of times.

 

Once you have been tricked into peeing on an electric fence as a child you get hardened to elctricity too since you figure it will never be as bad as that was! (Oh come on you guys I knowI am not the only one who got tricked into trying that!)

 

HAHAHAHHAHA!
I grew up on a small farm so I know of what you speak!
I never did but I know of others who did.
Cost of an electric fencer... depends on the era when it was purchased.
Watching someone get zapped.. priceless.

 

Just throwing in my thumbs up that this system does work. I have used it quite a bit also. Never had any issues at all.

 

Could a gas tank be done by hooking the negative to the tank, filling it with solution and suspending an electrode through the sending unit hole?

 

Don't use a stainless electrode - the water will then contain very toxic hexavalent chrome and you cannot dispose of it safely.

If you use a mild steel container then the waste is non-toxic and can be tipped down the drain over over the lawn.

 

I have known people to use this method. Understand that you are only getting the rust out of the inside and you will have to do the outside to get rid of any that is there.

If you have time... consider dipping the whole thing in a molasses dip for a week or two. If you haven't heard of using molasses.. do a search. SLOW but very good.

Acids (like vinegar and naval jelly) eat away at good metal too and have to be neutralized. Molasses doesn't.

Also.. Safest Rust Remover or Evapo-rust work well.

Be aware that fresh metal like this will flash-rust quickly and you will have to treat it quickly. You may have to seal the tank inside anyway after removing the rust.

 

Living on an Island, we OFTEN can't get things you folks take for granted. I have not seen Arm & Hamber washing solution, is there a alternative product. Ice man

 

Ice man... surely wherever you get washing supplies should be able to get washing soda of some kind for you in their next order.
Some reading for you... (head the warnings well!!! experimentation can be dangerous.)

From: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm
"An alkaline electrolyte must then be made up, and I consider a suitable one to be a solution of sodium carbonate, Na<SUB>2</SUB>CO<SUB>3</SUB>, as it is reasonably safe and also readily available at many supermarkets under varions brand names, although it is possible that a fair precipitation of calcium carbonate will result as it reacts with the calcium ions present in tap water in varying degrees, and this has a tendency to coat the piece and electrodes with a snowy deposit unless the solution is allowed to stand for a day or two first to give this precipitated chemical time to settle to the bottom, and the clear solution decanted off. An alternative would be to use deionised water, although this costs money and is not readily available in the quantities we require. Some sources suggest using caustic soda, NaOH, and this would work well, but it is a dangerous chemical and therefore I can't recommend it for safety reasons."

From: http://stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/electrolytic_derusting.htm

If you have trouble locating the washing soda, others have reported success with baking soda. Also household lye will work just fine. It's a tad more nasty -- always wear eye protection and be sure to add the lye to the water (NOT water to lye!!!) The solution is weak, and is not harmful, though you might want to wear gloves. NOTE: It is the current that cleans, not the solution; nothing is gained by making a more concentrated solution -- DON'T!

From: http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/tech-exchange/467718-rust-removal-electrolysis.html
Using a plastic, or non-conductive bucket (not metal), mix a solution of 5 gallons water to 1/3 to 1/2 cup laundry soda (washing soda). Mix well so all soda is dissolved. Adding more soda will not make it go faster. Do not try to use other salts. You won't get better results and dangerous effects may occur. Caustic soda, for example, is far too corrosive. Solutions of ordinary table salt can generate chlorine gas (toxic) at the positive electrode (anode).

Apparently some sort of PH control products are meant to adjust swimming pools and hot tubs. Make sure they are pure sodium carbonate thought because some are sodium bicarbonate which won't do.
Good luck.

 

That's funny right ther.

 

Ya, that was funny. I missed it first time I read it.

 

Hi Joe

You gettin the damn snow storm too?? Should be a fun drive to Halifax in the am. I cant wait to try this but I gotta wait for the warmer weather, I would like to do the front fenders and inner fenders of my 47 Ford, I was thinking of getting a plastic kiddies pool if I can find one deep enough, did you ever make the trip to pick up those model a parts ( I think) that you were heading up north to get??

Steve

 

Useing stainless steel is actually toxic!!

 

Hey Steve!

We've only got about 5 inches (you convert to cm if you need to. I'm old ) so far.
It's barely snowing now. Hope it stays away. We got our share before Christmas. Many folks were 3 or 4 days without power. Sucked.
How about you?
Yup.. Got up to Port Hawkesbury. Got the flathead and a bunch of spare parts for it
The body parts I was looking for turnd out to be memories of body panels.

I like electrolysis (actually it's reverse elect.) and I will continue to use it but I bought 4 litres of Evapo-rust and have set up a shower-type wash to clean some panels. Stuff looks promising. Just need some warmth. Can't wait for nice weather again.
I'm also considering the molasses dip too. Works well but slow.

Good luck driving!!!! How's the job? Family settling in?

And no.. stainless isn't good. Breathing 5 ppm is about all that's "healty". Striking an arc while welding it causes more than that. Should use fresh air supply when welding it.
Using it for electrolysis is very very unsafe.

Joe

edit: 5:45 plowed our 2 350' driveways just to say I did. Not much and it's done.

 

So what happens on items with more than just surface rust? I mean stuff that's pitted and the like. Does it all come out smooth or do all of the surface imperfections remain on the metal, just sans rust?

 

The imperfections remain.
Rust is gone. Good metal left but not smooth...

 

Thanks.

 

Hey Iceman-
If you can't find washing soda, you can also use plain old dish washing powder. The dish washing powder also contains calcium carbonate, just not in the same concentration as the straight washing soda...Or you could make your own

"Want to make your own "laundry soda"? Take baking soda, spread it out onto a cookie sheet and bake it in the oven at a little over 300 degrees for an hour or so it will drive away a water and CO2 molecule thus making washing soda.
At temperatures above 300o Fahrenheit (149o Celsius), baking soda decomposes into sodium carbonate, water, and carbon dioxide.
2NaHCO3 -> Na2Co3 + H20 + CO2" (http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp)

Calcium carbonate is a great non-toxic de-greaser and has been known to whiten yellowed plastic (at least with old Nylite kart rims). I know several 2-stroke motor builders that keep an old dishwasher in back of their shop for cleaning greasy blocks, nuts and bolts.

Dan

 

You know, I thought you were hardcore because of the 318 Poly stuff... but this takes the cake! That does it... I'm eatin' my Wheaties so I can be like YOU when I grow up, man!!

You totally rock, Don!

~Jason

 

I have also used electrolysis with good results, but I do it a little different and use carbon electrodes which are far superior to steel or stainless electrodes, and also the parts won't flash rust if you use carbon electrodes.

I've got a web page on my site with pics and info in details. Check it out.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/electrolyticderusting.htm

 

where do you get the carbon rods

 

Took the words right out of my mouth. Unfortunately, I think deuce is in Asia, so he may not be able to help us with getting them.

 

Are we talking about graphite rods? they seem pretty easy to find:
http://www.tracysworkshop.com/p-2422-carbon-rod025-x-12.aspx?affiliateid=10050