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Old 11-14-2008, 11:43 AM   #1
the SCROUNGER
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Default the dangers of urethane paint

the original urethane thread got long and unwieldy- but if you want the lowdown on the health effects of urethane, or any paint with a catalyst using isocyanates, the MSDS sheet starts here

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...1&postcount=84



the entire thread is here

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...light=urethane
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:45 AM   #2
Kona Cruisers
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

dude enough already. I got your point.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

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Originally Posted by Kona Cruisers View Post
dude enough already. I got your point.
Ditto. We get that you got bit by the stuff. We're happy your OK.

We really don't need you to preach anymore.
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Nothing personal fellas, but I think this post sucks.
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:31 PM   #4
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

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Originally Posted by Kona Cruisers View Post
dude enough already. I got your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowandLow63 View Post
Ditto. We get that you got bit by the stuff. We're happy your OK.

We really don't need you to preach anymore.
Hey ,

I'd say keep posting 'till YOU get tired of it!!!!!!

If this and the other post saves even one guys ass, it's probably the most valuable post on this board in some time!

Most younger guys commin' up figger "it will never happen to me"! that things like this always happen to somebody else, 'till they don't!

They may not remember your post, but maybe they'll remember your zeal!

I don't have any "old" painter friends left, living!

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Old 11-14-2008, 07:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

Good info.

I noticed on the MSDS you posted it cleary states that if you "DO NOT SPRAY, BAKE,ETC", then you can use a charcoal mask.

So, I assume (because of Eastwoods site) you thought you could spray it?
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

ok I have to say this In this age of "Right to know", OSHA, EPA, and the fact the the label on the paint can said TO BE USED BY PROFESSIONALS ONLY that well not my problem. people that dont use the correct PPE are freakn Tards. Sorry. Now again I am sorry you had your problems.
For instance don't bitch to me about flash burn cuase " I was just tacking it together"

People that dont educate themselfs about safety for the tools and products they use get NO sympathy from me.
Again.. How many people have a MSDS at home. I do

PPE= PERSONAL protective equipment... your own responsibilty

your at home no boss to blame no company to blame.

again get well soon. I hope you do feel better.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

I'm glad it got posted again, I've never delt with urethane but I've been thinking about playing with the kustom shop stuff and this is making me think twice about it without a fresh air suit. Mainly just because I didn't know any different. I've sprayed quite a bit of enamel, but urethane seems quite a bit more toxic?
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

I have thought about using Hot Rod Flatz in the past and it looks like they are urethane too. I had no idea this shit was so brutal!
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:28 AM   #9
the SCROUNGER
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kona Cruisers View Post
ok I have to say this In this age of "Right to know", OSHA, EPA, and the fact the the label on the paint can said TO BE USED BY PROFESSIONALS ONLY that well not my problem. people that dont use the correct PPE are freakn Tards. Sorry. Now again I am sorry you had your problems.
For instance don't bitch to me about flash burn cuase " I was just tacking it together"

People that dont educate themselfs about safety for the tools and products they use get NO sympathy from me.
Again.. How many people have a MSDS at home. I do

PPE= PERSONAL protective equipment... your own responsibilty

your at home no boss to blame no company to blame.

again get well soon. I hope you do feel better.

listen pal- I'm a college educated person with 2 degrees, one of them is in AUTOMOTIVE TECHNOLOGY- I've been wrenching on cars now for 25 years- and had my own shop for 12. I've built more engines than you'll live to see in your life- and have been involved with painting for 25 years. I've built cars from the frame up in my own back yard. The last IQ test I took scored a 130 on it, that's top 2% of the population in rank- in comparison, you can't even SPELL the English language. Your reply is enough to make any spellchecker go into fucking overload.

so no, people who get bit by this urethane shit are not "tards"- had you read the other thread, you'd see how 3M and Eastwood concealed and confused the critical safety information. The can says one thing, 3M says another and the MSDS sheets say yet another. I researched it and was craftily misled by 3M and Eastwood- because I thought both were standup American companies and thought I could trust them.

when you buy the paint, you only get the CAN LABEL warnings. You don't get any other information- until after you have a problem, and start researching it further. You don't get the MSDS sheets with the paint. If you did, no one would use the paint in their right mind, after reading them.

saying "professional use only" is no excuse- then why the fuck are they dumping this paint on the market dirt cheap now, and shipping it to residential addresses ? If some 2 year old breathes this overspray and DIES, what do you think the judge/jury is going to do to Eastwood and 3M and the paint mfr., whoever that is ?

they'd get sued to death.

there's been multiple lawsuits already over this shit, and the paint companies lose- but the plaintiffs are under a gag order after the settlements, so they can't divulge the details.

there's way to control stuff like this- for instance, when you buy a GUN, it has to be shipped to a FFL holder, for the transfer-

yet anyone can buy this lethal paint, even a 14 year old using him mom's credit card and ordering it on Ebay

and I bought this fucking paint on EBAY from Eastwood

the scientific community looked at this paint and stateds, it's not safe to use under any circumstances- and the best way to avoid getting dosed with the iso's, is use another paint- people using fresh air hoods are even getting sick and sensitized now- what about that ??

I don't want to sue anyone for a nickel, I'd rather just have my health back- but I want to get the word out this paint is dangerous to all the other hot rodders- without a high-dollar spray booth, supplied air respirator, and space suit- no one should use it.

they made the urethane dirt cheap so people would stop buying straight enamel and use the urethane- at one time this paint was $300-400 a gallon- what happened ?

now they are flooding the market with urethane for only $90/gallon to your door- and they'll ship it anywhere, business or residence-I talked to a 73 year old painter last night who's retired, and he painted cars for 50 years with lacquer and enamel- I told him this paint that used to be $200-400/gallon is now only $90, his exact words were:

"yeh, that's because no one wants to buy it or spray it anymore, it's too hazardous to use- eventually they'll have to stop making it, that stuff is too dangerous- when that first happens to you it's scary (in reference to being sensitized to iso's), you get allergic to the chemical in the paint- just like being allergic to peanuts, if you then eat a peanut it can kill you- don't paint anymore, stay in the clean air"

Last edited by the SCROUNGER; 11-15-2008 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:32 AM   #10
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

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Originally Posted by PBR Allstar View Post
I'm glad it got posted again, I've never delt with urethane but I've been thinking about playing with the kustom shop stuff and this is making me think twice about it without a fresh air suit. Mainly just because I didn't know any different. I've sprayed quite a bit of enamel, but urethane seems quite a bit more toxic?

you got that right, what they don't tell you is, urethane is "acid cured"- the "catalyst" containing "iso's" is a fancy name for sulfuric acid, nitric acid, formaldehyde (Raid bug spray ingredient), and phosgene (WWI military gas agent) mixed with the paint, to make it harden. What you have is an ACID MIST just like mixing bleach and ammonia and while it's reacting, spraying it into an aerosol, like a gas chamber. It's DEADLY. It burns your lungs and gets right past charcoal filter masks, and in about 1 hour the charcoal mask stops working.

the "catalyst" is an ACID- plain and simple

if you don't have a professional high dollar downdraft spray booth with water in the floor, and a complete space suit with supplied air respirator- then DON'T USE URETHANE- AT ALL

the overspray must also be captured, it can go downwind and hurt kids, people, pets, etc. in their homes or business

I'm getting better now, but when it first happened, about 3 days later it felt like I drank bleach and it went in my lungs- your lungs burn and you can't stop the pain- I was taking 6-8 motrin a day just to ease that up a little

and I'm still not recovered yet fully

for anyone reading this, if you have been dosed- go to Walmart, get a bottle of garlic geltabs, take 2 at night, 2 in the morning- they boost your heart/respiratory system against the iso damage and help repair it- also get EQUATE 1-a-day vitamins- and eat a bag of dried cut peaches per day, Sun Maid brand- these natural meds have greatly improved my condition over the past 9 days. The peaches are loaded with fiber and potassium, and keep clearing your gut out

one of the worst effects is, stomach gut spasms causing excessive pain/gas- you can't eat normally

Last edited by the SCROUNGER; 11-15-2008 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:36 AM   #11
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

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Originally Posted by 3Mike6 View Post
Good info.

I noticed on the MSDS you posted it cleary states that if you "DO NOT SPRAY, BAKE,ETC", then you can use a charcoal mask.

So, I assume (because of Eastwoods site) you thought you could spray it?


no, what it says is, if you have adequate ventilation and the levels in the air are not too high, then you can use charcoal mask for 1 hour

which is a bullshit statement, because how are you going to measure the ISO levels in the air, without test strips and a high dollar meter to monitor air quality ? That meter alone would cost $15,000, more than a spray booth

they are merely covering their ass with that statement

it also says use charcoal mask elsewhere in the MSDS, with no qualifications or disclaimers- that is downright dangerous- it implies one is protected by a charcoal mask- truth is, charcoal mask does not protect against iso's, the iso goes right through them

I called 3M respirator tech line, they told me this, here's the email- and I used the mask/filters they recommended- they also told me break the job down into parts, spray it outside, which I did- guess what, it still didn't protect me

I suggest you read the other thread in completion, to understand what really happened

----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: respirator/cartridges for spraying urethane paints w/isocyanate hardeners ? >

>
> 3M generally recommends an organic vapor cartridge with a 95 class particle
> prefilter for spraying paints and coatings, including those containing
> isocyanates. The 3M 7500 Series Respirator (7501/7502/7503 for S/M/L) with
> the 6001 Organic Vapor Cartridge, 5P71 P95 Prefilter and 501 Retainer is
> suggested. This assembly offers protection up to 10X the OSHA PEL. Attached
> is a product file. Additional information, including where to buy, may be
> found on our website at www.mmm.com/Occsafety
>
> Regards,
>

Last edited by the SCROUNGER; 11-15-2008 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:14 AM   #12
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

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Originally Posted by the SCROUNGER View Post
listen pal- I'm a college educated person with 2 degrees, one of them is in AUTOMOTIVE TECHNOLOGY- I've been wrenching on cars now for 25 years- and had my own shop for 12. I've built more engines than you'll live to see in your life- and have been involved with painting for 25 years. I've built cars from the frame up in my own back yard. The last IQ test I took scored a 130 on it, that's top 2% of the population in rank- in comparison, you can't even SPELL the English language. Your reply is enough to make any spellchecker go into fucking overload.

Hmmm.... and you didn't know that this paint was dangerous? Dude, calm the fuck down already, there are lots of dangerous things we have to deal with everyday. Hell people are still using Moth Balls and they're super dangerous too. You go off about how smart you are and how long you've been doing this and that makes you look pretty silly to just be finding out about things like this.
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:30 AM   #13
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

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Originally Posted by the SCROUNGER View Post
the original urethane thread got long and unwieldy- but if you want the lowdown on the health effects of urethane, or any paint with a catalyst using isocyanates, the MSDS sheet starts here
Quote:
Originally Posted by the SCROUNGER View Post

Dude- I feel your pain.
I know people think you are beating a dead horse here but I cant say enough about using the proper masks etc for ANY painting.

After 25 years , Ive developed severe isocyanate allergies: I'm not supposed to paint.(I love it too much to stop...)

I have asthma that is related to the years of painting without masks (which we all did back in the 80's) using badly ventilated home garages before I had a proper spray booth and shop etc etc etc. I now use a professional fresh air system to paint in a porperly ventilated 4 year old booth .

I wake every morning hacking like a TB patient and have to take 3 different meds just to be able to breathe.

I am hoping the young guns (OK- younger than me) here read the thread and understand - follow the guidelines-Hell- go overboard and OVER protect if you arent sure or if you r chest feels tight when you stop painting. Wwear a freash air system/mask /whatever to protect your lungs .

You cant just go to the local Wal Mart and get a new pair.
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:14 AM   #14
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

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Originally Posted by the SCROUNGER View Post
no, what it says is, if you have adequate ventilation and the levels in the air are not too high, then you can use charcoal mask for 1 hour

>
I don't want to seem like I'm arguing with you, but go back to the original thread and re-read the scanned copy you inserted, it states (on post #79...I have to paraphrase it, I suck at uploads)

Where :"MDI is not sprayed.......then an organic filter....for up to 1 hour"

Which leads me to believe that the ony time you can use a non-freshair supplied mask with the paint is if it's rolled on or dipped?

I assume the scan came from the MSDS?
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:21 AM   #15
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

Here's another perspective:

If you expect to get a decent paint job on your car, then its essential that you have proper ventillation in your painting area. If you try to paint in a closed room you are:
1. Going to get a shitty paint job because you can't see what you're doing.
2. Increasing the health risk by 10 times or more because of the increased vapor concentration.

Do your car and yourself a favor - paint in a properly ventilated area. I use a $20 yard sale squirrel cage blower and some furnace filters placed in openings in the ceiling and it works great.

Also, a lot of people our doing our hobby a disservice here. By not using proper safety equipment an then complaining about the health effects from "cheap urethane paint" virtually guarantees that that paint will be banned for individual use and we'll be stuck with expensie paint that lays down like latex wall paint.
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

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Originally Posted by henryj429 View Post
Here's another perspective:

If you expect to get a decent paint job on your car, then its essential that you have proper ventillation in your painting area. If you try to paint in a closed room you are:
1. Going to get a shitty paint job because you can't see what you're doing.
2. Increasing the health risk by 10 times or more because of the increased vapor concentration.

Do your car and yourself a favor - paint in a properly ventilated area. I use a $20 yard sale squirrel cage blower and some furnace filters placed in openings in the ceiling and it works great.

Also, a lot of people our doing our hobby a disservice here. By not using proper safety equipment an then complaining about the health effects from "cheap urethane paint" virtually guarantees that that paint will be banned for individual use and we'll be stuck with expensie paint that lays down like latex wall paint.
The last paragraph pretty well sums it up. Too many people are a bit too careless and or don't understand or follow the safety instructions.

I've seen more than one case where the guy sprayed catalyzed paint in the attached garage on his house and made his family sick in the process.

The guy I was planning on having paint the truck just quit doing paint and body work due to 20+ years of being exposed to the the stuff in body and paint shops. He is one of my former students who preached safety from the day he walked into the highschool auto shop as a sophomore. He grew up in a garage/bodyshop and wrecking yard.

In my book there is no such thing as preaching safety too much and one has to remember that we have new guys showing up every day who have never had any training of any kind (including safety) on paint work who are attempting it for the first time.
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:56 AM   #17
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

I married my current wife in 1988. I helped her burry her younger brother in 1989. He was 35, three kids. He didnt read the words on the back of the can. If you cant read, dont buy the product.
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Old 11-15-2008, 11:27 AM   #18
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

I'm all about safety when it comes to painting, don;t get me wrong. And it is best to inform people on the dangers of certain solvents and chemicals in relation to the paint they are using. But we have a whole nother thread with 5 pages of tech sheets and msds and opinions. No need to add another thread, the point has been made. Give it up. You can't force feed people safety information. The info is out there.

You can lead a horse to water...

We are at the god damn water, you've done your job.
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Nothing personal fellas, but I think this post sucks.

Last edited by SlowandLow63; 11-15-2008 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

Making me think more and more about lacquer.
(And I know you still have to take precautions even with that.)
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Old 11-15-2008, 01:58 PM   #20
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Default Re: the dangers of urethane paint

Actually using any PPE (Personal Protection Equipment) is always a tough thing to achieve with most people.

I buy a full set of PPE's for each and every employee, from goggles to gloves to masks to full welding leathers and helmets (we don't paint) and after a few months and numerous reminders lot's of the stuff sits unused somewhere around their toolbox.. they just don't want to bother and when you ask, it get's in the way, the welding leathers are too hot, I can't see well with the goggles, the grinder won't throw pieces in my face, I don't need the facemask.. and what ever else.

I've seen friend get sick from paint and I've had the doctor give me that dreaded line "you've got (skin) cancer" I use my safety gear religiously and I still won't paint or use most solvents.. Warm soapy water with some added elbow grease cleans away any dirt.

Or in other words, you can warn people, tell them what could happen and give them every opportunity to use the right gear but if they don't want to listen they won't until something happens to them.
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