T5 behind a my 235 chevy!

First of all I took no pictures but followed the tech articles from here on the hamb.....So what I did...and we will see if this works when I get my driveshaft back tomorrow. Anyway...I got a T-5 with a s-10 chassis I bought for another project so I figured I would put it behind the 235 in my 57 wagon.
I started by cutting the input shaft and sleeve for the throwout bearing enough so the tranny would slide into the stock bellhousing and pilot bearing...had to trim it twice to get it right. Then I got the throwout bearing from a V8 with a T5...and decided to use the stock s10 clutch disk since it fit OK...just much smaller than the stock 57 disc....so this is the part that may not work.....miles will tell I guess. I had to shorten the driveshaft a few inches and get a conversion U-joint so I could use the T5 yoke with the 57 shaft. I put it all together and went for a spin....got some driveline vibration and couldn't get enough throw on the clutch to get in reverse while it was running.
Soooooo....out came the driveshaft and off to the machine shop to get done right. then while I was at it I grabbed the 57 throwout bearing and found that it fits the T5 fine! I also found the linkages were very loose on my clutch so I shimmed and bushed everything I could and then found the Ball on the frame side was very loose....so it got a nice fat tack weld or two...put the trans back in and hooked up the linkage now it has a full throw...and should work just fine.
While I had the tranny out I followed another tech thread from here on making the T5 a short throw shifter...basically just made a 1/2 inch aluminum spacer to raise the shifter and then extended the shift ball down 1/2 inch by welding a piece of bolt in.
Now the point of all this is I wanted to say if you are doing this swap....
1. Yes you need to shorten the driveshaft and have it balanced
2. you need the T5 yoke and an adapter Ujoint
3. looks like a stock 3 sp. throwout bearing works (at least mine does)
4. stock s10 clutch disc fits the stock 235 ...probably not the best choice but if your t5 comes with a nice clutch it should work (I am not racing and drive somewhat mellow...so it should be fine)
5. check your clutch linkages when you are under the car...make sure all are not loose!

Just wanted to throw this out there as I never read this stuff in the tech articles (maybe I just missed it???)

 

Good tips - it's the details like this that are priceless to someone who has never done a conversion like this. Thanks for taking the time to write it all down!

 

thanks for the tips! did you end up reusing the stock 57 pressure plate also? and do you know if the bell housing on your 57 is the same as the bell housing on a 54?

 

This is amazingly timely. I ,or I should say Spoons pulled my Saginaw out today and a 'new' T5 will be going in as soon as I can get the right clutch disc; now that I have the right part number... again, thanks to the HAMB!

Thanks for thinking about the rest of us and documenting what you've done.

Vance

 

nooo problem...these were just the questions I had before I did the swap...but never asked because I'm hardheaded like that.

I used the stock pressure plate with the s10 T5 disc...I figure I've seen a bunch of overloaded s10's running around so the little clutch disc should be OK for my stock 235 and wagon....but time will tell I guess!

 

No. Your 54 bell won't work with a t5. you need a 55 and up car or 48 up truck. I did a post on how I put one in my 53 a while back.

 

i am planning on running the stock s-10 disc behind my rover 3.9, the disc looked fresh when i pulled it out of the truck, i dont see the point of going to the 11" astro van clutch as i think ill break the trans before i have slip issues. if i ever find a camaro t5 for a fair price ill do that upgrade and worry about a good clutch then. i found a 4" aluminum truck driveshaft in the bed of a pickup, the slip yoke fit the t5 so ill be using that, just needs about 3' cut off of it.

 

When you say you cut the sleeve, is what I have circled what you're talking about? If so, how did you do that? Also, you said it took a couple times to get the right amount trimmed, how much was what you needed and how did you determine that?



Sorry to barrage you with questions, I would like to be able to get this right without screwing it up. That would be a pretty costly mistake.

Vance

 

Vance, I used throw out bearing retainer from the 3 speed that was in my truck as a guide. Took them to a machine shop and had him make them the same size. I am using the 4201 clutch disc. with the re-man pressure plate and had my fly wheel re drilled to match the pressure plate, same machine shop. I have a 56 engine going in my 54 truck project. I still have to shorten the input shaft on the T-5 yet. The pilot bearing from the 56 fits nicely over the T-5 input shaft. Since I am using a 86 Camero rear end, I can use the S-10 drive shaft to match the T-5. So far so good. Dennis

 

How's that '57 looking? This tech is great. What is the milage forecast?

 

can you give a link to that post please?

 

Yes thats what I was talking about...if you still have your 3 speed laying around you can take some measurements from what is on that . I sold mine already so I used a cutoff wheel on a little 3 inch air grinder and took off about 1/2" (because the tech articles I have read say this is the right amount) then I put the tranny up to the engine and pushed it all the way into the pilot bushing and it was still not allowing it to mate up so I took a little more off (the amount that the tranny still needed to move forward) The amount I took off is of the sleeve is(probably not the correct terminology) the same as what I took off the shaft. just be careful not to cut into the shaft as you are cutting the sleeve....it's easy to do but a few tiny gouges shouildn't kill anything.

The way I work just kills some of my friend that have to measure everything exactly and use precision instruments to work....I just don't usually work that way.

 

I also found that the bearing retainer/sleeve should be the same lenght as a 3 or 4 speed trans. And 1/2 inch off the pilot bearing snout, just so it doesn't bottom out in the crank.

Also test fit each modification as you go along to make sure each step is gonna work before you button everything up.

And be sure that your bell housing diameter matches the trans bearing retainer.I think it's 4 11/16? The trans will make noise if that's not right.

Frank

 

There you go with all those damn accurate measurements....hahaha....what the heck is a trans bearing retainer and where is it and why does it matter so much if it's 4 11/16 ???? (too late now anyway....mine ain't coming out again unless it just doesn't work!)

 

Ha, the hole in the bellhousing that the bearing retainer/sleeve for the TO bearing on the front of the trans fitzinto.
I have a truck iron bell, the hole was too big, need to make a big washer/ring to get it to work.
I have a 63 Nova bell the hole was way too small for the trans to fit, needed to bore the bell bigger.

 

gotcha...guess mine was about right...didn't think to check that! Thanks.

 

Great help! I am trying to mount a T5 from an S10 behind a '69 camaro 230 straight 6 and have been reading all I could find, a dizzying amount of info. I ended up with the wrong bell housing from an ebay sale, 60 degree 88 camaro, then found that the input shaft had to be trimmed, and on and on. WOW, not for the faint of heart as they say. I am still looking for a 153 tooth flywheel too. I guess I don't travel in the right circles! Thanks much. perley

 

You shouldn't have any trouble with the clutch disc being smaller than the pressure plate. Back in the day, it was something that was done commonly, can't remember why, though.....performance thing....

 

As long as you are not pulling too many hole shots, the smaller diameter clutch disc should be fine. If you are not doing the T-5 change over on the cheap, there is some one out there that makes an adapter plate that eliminates the modifications to the trans. Can't remember who makes it though. I estimate the gas mileage to be in the 20's for my application. 3.43 rear gear should run around 2000 rpm at 65mph with a 26 to 27 inch tire.

 

Also, if you haven't seen this post by flathead ernie, it was very help full.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171291

 

Ok, here’s what I did, how I did it and how I determined what needed to be done.

After comparing the input shafts and sleeves from the T5 to the Saginaw here’s what I saw;

• The overall lengths were slightly different. The T5 was 3/16” longer. The pilot bushing portion on the T5 was 3/16”, so this is where one problem is. I cut off that 3/16” and re chamfered the newly cut edge.
• The exposed amount of the splined portion was also different. The Saginaw was showing almost a full 3” of splined shaft where as the T5 showed a little over an inch. I did notice that the portion of the clutch disc that slides on the splined area was thicker on the Saginaw’s clutch disc, by about 3/8”.
• The length of the sleeve was also very different. The Saginaw was about 1 ½” shorter then the T5. I decided to mark and cut off the length of the sleeve that prevented the sleeve from seating into the bell housing. I did this by removing the 4 bolts that mounted the sleeve to the trans. This way there was no risk of cutting into the splined portion at all. It also made it easier to place the sleeve in and out of the bell housing; it ended up being a little lighter without the trans bolted to it. This amount ended up being 11/16”. This allowed the sleeve to go all the way into the bell to the point where it would be when on the trans, plus a 1/16” so it wouldn’t be smashed up against the flywheel.

One other thing that I noticed that no one else mentioned in all the threads I’ve seen; the four mounting holes that are used to bolt the trans to the bell were a little small on my T5 compared to the bolts I was using on the Saginaw. I opened these holes up from the 7/16” that they were to the ½” that I needed.

Once all these modifications were made, the trans was a snug fit and the clutch seems for be working properly as well.

Now all I have to do is modify the rear trans mount; make a new floor because I had to cut up the one I made and was oh SOOOO proud of; shorten my drive shaft (AGAIN!); find a shifter because the guy who sold it to me can’t seem to find the one that was supposed to be with my T5. Oh and run the speedo cable which is the reason for ALL THIS HELL! Stevo was over last night helping me with all this and he kept reminding me of this; Thanks Steve.

I think I covered everything. If you want to ask me about something go ahead. If I can answer one question to help one person from getting overly disgruntled I’m game. I’ve been there since Friday.

Vance

 

I didn't mention the drilling of the holes on the T5 just because that was in most of the tech things I had already read, but glad you mentioned it again! I think if the 4 holes are drilled for the 1/2" bolts that should be enough to index the tranny on the bellhousing.
I got mine all together and am still having problems with it grinding pretty hard going into reverse...not sure if it's clutch adjustment or the tranny has a problem.

 

The first one I did, did not do that, That was an 11 inch Astro.
The last one I did, did drag, That was a small 153 tooth flywheel and a 4201,(I think) 9 5/8 inch disc. It took 500 miles to smooth the fuzzies off the disc, now it is fine after about 1000 miles.

I was putting it in 5th then reverse to stop the gears from turning.

Frank

 

I've been told by an S10 guy that the grinding into reverse is a common thing and that going from 5th to reverse is the simple and cost free remedy. If that's the only problem I end up with after all this, I'll be a pretty happy guy. The Saginaw I replaced already did that so I'm used to it.

Thanks to all for the help!

Vance

 

I would never, ever use just bolts to index an tranny to an engine/bellhousing. The runout tolerance for a tranny is quite small - you're looking for numbers in the single thousandths .00x for crankshaft concentricity.

You need a machined lip on the bellhousing side of any adapter plate for the plate to register in the bellhousing. Then you need a machined in recess in the adapter for the input shaft/bearing retainer to index in. These two circles need to be concentric with each other.

Incorrectly indexed transmissions will eat themselves - input shaft goes first. This is usually indicated by bearing noise in all offset gears (typically 1-3, 5, & R - 4th is straight through so noise is minimal).

Reverse is not synchronized, so some minor grinding going into gear is not completely unexpected, but proper clutch adjustment minimizes this.

 

well I added about a quart of lube and went for a drive up to about 65mph....man it's nice having a 5 speed! The reverse grinding went away already too .....Paso Maria here I come!

 

I've included this in the links on the T5 Tech page...loads of great info - thanks for sharing.

 

Vance, I have a stock shifter, handle and plate if you need one. I found a Hurst short throw shifter for the T-5 at the Randolf swap meet last year for $80 NIB. Let me know. Dennis

 

I'm not trying to hi-jack this thread, just trying to add more info to help others.

After installing after the above mods, the clutch wasn't moving far enough to move the coupe and really pissin me off. So after talking to our local guru, I came home from Blktopbandit's get together and proceeded to lop off yet another 1/2" of the sleeve that covered the input shaft. This allowed the clutch to move another 1/4" or so and this was enough to get the coupe moving. WHEW!

Funny thing happened too. I had a neighbor come over to help me muscle the trans back up into place and as I was bolting it all in, he left. As I was reconnecting the clutch linkage, I realized that I had put the throw-out bearing in backwards! Not willing to embarrass myself to the neighbor, I managed to slide the trans back on the floor jack and turn it around.

That's enough for now.

Vance