Whilst cruising thru the new Hot Rod Deluxe, I chanes upon an article about Vern (I wish he was my neighbor) Tardel's shop. One of the photos was of a Frnch Flathead, and in the caption it stated that they were banned at Bonneville. Why??
There is a guy down here in Tucson with a home fab'd..A..with a French flathead. He said it was from an old military vehicle..maybe a small tank ? Knows a lot about these frogger fords..maybe he knows..?? I'll ask next time I see him. Here's a history site http://www.sfflatheads.com/history/ and better http://www.flatheaddrag.com/french.html
its because they are an amalgam of ford flat engines, and modified internally... 8ba style front of the block, 59ab style rear integrated bell. oil passages are massaged as well as the cooling passages. they were never in a production ford car, thus banned. they DO however use all stock ford internals
I think I've read that you can get more cubic inches of displacement out of them than the originals too, so it's kind of cheating.
didnt Halibrand get most of the surplus french flatties a few years back? i thought i read some where that they bought everyone they could get there hands on along with a bunch of NOS merc cranks.
FuelPump sold one a few months back. That's correct, it came out of some French (I think) military vehicle, like a six man personel carrier.
im sure thats not the case. they do come with 4" cranks as std. though. as someone else said they are an amalgamation of the 8BA and 59AB, IIRC they were produced up until 1993 so the metal is not old and rusty as some of the original blocks are. they were all sold for not a lot of money, when they first surfaced over here in the UK you could buy them for £400 for a complete engine which is $800, i think the guys who got them in the states stripped them and then priced everything accordingly and sold the engines as parts so they could make a killing from them - they still come up for sale regularly over here but they are a little more expensive nowadays but not overly so.
The vintage class rules at Bonneville do not allow repro blocks. Like the Donovan. Th French engines were built much later than the real Fords and not by Ford so they were ruled to be repro blocks
In flatheadery, it's considered cheating to start with an engine that hasn't been sitting upside down in a ditch for 30 years. Tradition, you know.
Was flipping through that (too cheap to buy)and read most of it. If I remember correctly(which would be a first) I believe they said you can go out to .250 over, but really who would want to do that.
That's funny. I was lucky enough to get one of those French 4" cranks NOS. Sure looks nice. Waiting to be stuffed into out FED 286 motor.
the french flat was in this : it's called a "Marmon" made by "SIMCA" the marmon got a 4" crank. I beleive it's was made until the early 70's. You can found sometime "military rebuilt" or new ones, in sealled nitrogen box..... There is also a french flat called "Cargo", but it's the same crank than Ford. Watch out when you buy one. picture from : http://r2087.free.fr/new/pages.php3?num=138
And on the Frech flathead...as in a previous discussion, I strongly suspect that it is actually a German flathead...I wish I could get one of each side by side to compare. Far too many correspondences of odd features and dates there...and France, I believe, had only 60HP tooling of its own... German flathead went out of production circa 1955. I think the tooling may have gone a bit south...
I thought the German flathead had the distributor in an odd place (different from the American)? Someone in Europe posted a build some months back that was using a German flathead- wish I could remember...
french flathead are french .. and german flathead are german. Flatordead is the german flathead guru, do a search, it's called the G29T, the distributor is at the back of the engine. French flathead were cast and assembled by S.U.M.B. (Simca Unic Marmon Bocquin) -"so french" name - in Suresnes until 1973. And YES Marmon truck are ugly -the one picture is the nicer ...- The V8-60 was very popular, Ford France use it in his "Vedette" car until the late 50's, they were made in France, and I think, after the "239". I don't know if in the 30's the V8 were made in France or in US. At this time, some Ford cars were made in France, some other were imported.<!--flatordead-->
Yes, the Bosch distributor is in the back where the French engine has the governor. I've had my hands on both, but not to tear down & inspect. Limey on here has, as has Mart & monkeybiker. There are some subtle differences between them, but overall remarkably similar. I've got a brand new French block that will be the subject of my next full build (blown 284) for my '40. The ports bowls on the French engines are extremely restricted (as you'd expect in a governed engine) & require a fair amount of work to get flowing well. Otherwise, the casting itself is very nice. I don't know that they can be safely bored beyond "normal" accepted limits (like 3-3/8" or so), but it wouldn't really surprise me if the cyl walls were thicker - main webs are. As for the bunch over here - originally bought & imported by some fellowin Bryan, TX who sold them to Halibrand. After one of the times Halibrand when Ch 11, he got them back. Then SF Flatheads bought the bulk of them & are selling them now. Personally, I think the prices SF Flatheads are asking are a bit high (for the blocks, at least), but where else do you find brand new flathed parts? There are some valve train variations in at least some of the French engines too - longer lifters & shorter valves! So if you get a French engine, be sure to check this area out...
Heres my german flathead: Was in a wooden box from year of production on, produced in Cologne in 1963 for the german army. Its a G29T, found it in 2005.
Bruce i've not forgotten your request to see both French & German blocks side by side, as soon as the G29T comes out of its sheep dip ......or was it molasses i'll post the comparison pics. Here's a few not so good pics for now. French.... German.... Kev.
The things that lead me to my hypothesis: Last German flatheads had rear distrib drive, precisely where French one has a protruding drive which they used for something else. I don't think France manufactured big size flatheads before this. Using existing molds and tooling for an old engine suitable for application makes sense...all new tooling would seem not to make sense, especially flathead block tooling which is far more complex than just about anything else. Both used the mixed 99--8BA stuff. Both kept normal front on motor, Germany put on 1941 cover with a block off, France put on an 8BA drive. Misses...France used late hole pattern in head surface, German pics I have...no. Germany used early and late heads on versions of this engine...don't know if they altered block holes for late. Block shown does seem to have rear slots like 8BA... No proof, just a theory. Germany stops making it, France starts making it with similarities...at roughly the same time. Where did that come from?? I don't have enough pictures of casting details, especially German, to go any further. I've got a G29T shop manual, but they managed to position parts to avoid showing most of what I'd like to compare...like that drive off the oil pump in back.
Good luck with the huge overbores. My Frenchie ran really hot with only .125 over (with a 1/2" stroker and a 3-71 blower).
Mark Kirby (Motor City Flatheads) had a few of these things at his old shop in Dundee Michigan. He gave me a ride in one once and I thought we were tip the damn thing over. They are really pretty cool though.
I thought I remembered something about .250 in the article, I guess I'll have to wait for another time to recollect correctly
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