28/9 Model A's full hood w/stretched frame question

I am looking for info(and pics) on Early A's that are running Deuce frames with full hoods. Also if you stretched the front of the frame to fit a longer engine......ie: BBC, anything with a blower, Inline 6 etc........

I would love to see some profile shots of them if you know the specs.

This is such a precise request that the search function wasn't getting me the data I was looking for.

 

That roadster in ryans JJ entry today looks nice, wonder if the front of that is stock Duece measurments? As in 32" like the Wescott blueprints?

 

Morning bump

 

Since the Model A frames 28-31 are all the same and from what I've measured on the cockpits of 29, 31 and 32 I believe the body sizes of the A's are all very close in length.

The 29 cowls are narrower, but that's a different set of problems when you drop it onto a 32 frame.


My 31 on 32 rails roadster ended up with a 105" wheelbase.
A wheelbases are 104" and 32's are 106".

Hood lengths measured down the middle of the hood top.

28-29 = 27 3/4"

30-31 = 31 5/8"

32 = 32"



The 31's 32 frame is built to stock specs - except where the rear was pulled out 3/4" each side - with the re-pro A front crossmember in the stock 32 location.
Some guys move em forward a touch, but go very far at all and the car doesn't look right.

My hood top is 32 3/8" long.



So heres the weird part:

The 455 Buick engine is fairly compact - but wide - for a big engine.
It fits the 32 just fine, but there's a touch of hassle.
The 32 has the flat firewall.

When the Deuce Factory built the frame they set the jig for an SBC back 1".
The engine fit ok, about in the right location, but I would have had to use an electric fan.
Imo electric fans suck in more ways than one.

I cut the Deuce Factory crossmembers out and built a new crossmember setup duplicating their nice design and installed it 2" further back . . . 3" total if you're counting.

To get the engine in further back I had to make a 1" deep dimple on the right side of the firewall.

The 32 has a Walker 4-core radiator so there was now a fan/radiator conflict.
That solved by machining one sheave off the three sheave crank pulley and setting the fan directly on the water pump hub with no spacer.

The fan had to be a Hayden (17") since its blades are mounted to the rear of the flange and other brands are mounted with their blades centered on the flange which brings the blades too far forward.
The fan is a fat stainless blade model.
From tests I've read the narrow blade aftermarket fans don't pull near as much air as the fat blades do.
Bad part is, the fat stainless blades are sharp, very sharp.
Even with the engine off you can get a bad cut if you're not careful.

The trans cooler tank in the radiator was plugged off with a couple of flush allen plugs.
There's just enough clearance for the low-hanging Buick fan in that area and not enough to use 90 degree fittings to accept a trans line.
Ok by me, I'd rather keep the trans fluid heat out of the radiator anyway.

The fan does end up very close to the V-belt, but when the engine fires the fan blades flex forward and no problems there.

I have very solid engine mounts so the engine stays where it should whether running or not.

Only disadvantage in all this is I only have room to run one V-belt.
So far - 48,000 miles and 14 years down the road - no problems.

Here's the really weird part.
The 31 on the stock size 32 rails ends up with a shorter wheelbase and a longer hood.

Along with that, the 31 has a 4" recessed firewall.
And more leg room than the 32, but that's another story.
The 455 Buick engine in the 31 sits in the same place longitudinally speaking that the 32's engine does.

The 31 ended up with a 15" Hayden fan and I'll probably replace it with a 17" Hayden later on.
The 15" fan had to be used to clear the 1" shorter than stock 32 Walker 4-core radiator.


So everything is cool in the boiler room semantically speaking . . . except . . . the hood is too high at the front for a good hood flow line from the cowl.
The car looked a bit strange with an uphill running hood.

The Walker rad was pulled, a couple of simple brackets that adjust height-wise etc. were bolted to the grille shell and the hood brought down to the point where it looked right.
That 1" makes more difference than you think it does.

What would work now is a 2" shorter than stock 32 radiator.

I had a local builder knock out an aluminum radiator and there's even more room between fan and rad.
Regardless, the engine can run a three crank sheave pulley and two V-belts with either rad.
Both the cut down to two sheaves crank pulley on the 32 and the stock three sheave crank pulley on the 31 have a smaller inner diameter sheave that is not used.

And as a small fwiw, the Buick engine crank pulleys are not all the same size.
You could get away with using the two front sheaves if you ran the right length V-belt for each.
What I did here was get a Ford two sheave aluminum pulley for the Pinto alternator.
The water pump hub got an aluminum pulley for an SBC which was a simple bolt-on altough it's spaced out 3/16" via a spacer between hub and pulley.
The crank got an aluminum pulley for an SBC that required a 1/4" thick adapter to go between crank flange and the SBC pulley due to three 3/8" bolts for the Chevy and six 5/16" bolts for the Buick.
The pattern is wider on the Buick so that made life easy.

Ok, a lotta stuff here and much of it pertains to Buicks, but it should give you an idea of what you can do and what you may run into.

Stretched frame 29's on 32 rails look great.
I believe about 2" is the usual stretch, but I've seen them out to 4".
A 4" stretch looks ok on a 32, but it's a bit much for the A.

Since the 29's radiator is so short you'll need to cut the grille shell down, about 4" is the usual, but measure first.
On the 32 framed 31's you can trim 2" off the bottom edges.
The grille shell sits down between the frame rails nicely and with the lower part of the shell hanging down it adds to the illusion of lowness.
My 32 looks low in front, but isn't.
Same deal with the 31 and it looks even lower.

Low cars - and not overly low - look good, but I like to err on the practical side since I go more places with my car than the Saturday night rod run.

Geez, last Saturday we did a 120 mile poker run aroun the local mountains with about 200 Harleys.
My two pals and I had the only hot rods in the group.
Fun time, Harley guys & gals were cool and for sure, they know how to have a good time.

Anyway, if you do the 29 on 32 rails bit, you may want to think twice about pinching the frame rails.
Most times it looks good, but it brings other problems.
Narrow engine bay, grille shell no longer drops down between the rails and all that.

Even so, do it right and the 29 on 32 rails roadster is about the best looking hot rod ever built.

Yeah, I know, some are asking, so hows come he's building a 31 on 32 rails.
Simple answer, I like the look, my car etc.

Maybe next time around on a 29.

Right after the full fendered 32....

 

Tman, Are you running the 28/9 grille shell or a '32?

 

i stretched my 32 frame 1.25", i did this by moving the front crossmember one rivet hole forward and then extending the base of the K-member to let the stick 32 wishbone still attach

heres a pic
Zach

heres the best profile shot i had sorry the other car is in it too
although thats stock 28 length for comparison

 

28/9. I am not worried about the width pinching the frame.

 

Thanks Zack. I am wondering what 2" stretch would look like?

 

Thanks Jay, lots of info there. After the wide W motor, I am not building anything like that this time around!

As for ride height, this car will actually sit fairly high compatratively, might not even split the bones.

 

3/4" longer

you'll have to watch getting into the downward sweep of the frame horns if you go too much
unless you are actually adding to the frame?

good luck
Zach

 

Thanks for the good question, and all the good info. I'm (someday) going to start on my '29 with '32 frame. Answers a lot for me.
Anyone ever extend the cowl instead of the hood? Might add foot room and not look weird, maybe 1 1/2" ?

I dunno, just thinking here.................

 

i wouldnt mess with the stock body if i was you
everyones eye is trained to see what it should be like

this is the reason that a coupe turned roadster can look good but it usually doesnt look "right"

with a thinner seat theres a good bit of leg room in these things...

 

Yes, rails will be scratchbuilt. Still undecided about frame horns.

 

Jay,I re-read your thread in depth this time. Some very good info, I will make sure my A shell fits like a stocker. From what I have seen I think you are right witht he 2" stretch. I may play with pictures and see what 3" does...........yer right, they get to looking "schnozzle like"

 

speaking of grill shell and hood line

when i mounted my body, i sliced a little out of the cowl to let it sit down on the frame rather then have the gap that alot of the 28/9's on 32 frames have

the problem with this was that it made the standard 3"chopped 32 roadster too tall, i had to eliminate the 2 center grill mounting points and set the shell down tight against the top of the tank
it seems to have a nice line now though

just something to keep in mind

 

Thanks for the headsup. Since I am starting from scratch I should be able to work around all these little issues.

 

bump for the night crowd

 

Hey Trent --

My Deuce chassis is the stock 106 inch, with an A front crossmember in the stock position. I agree with Jay, you start moving the crossmember forward and the proportions go whacky. I even moved the front spreader out to the end of the frame horns to accentuate that downward arc:


By cruzpch at 2007-08-18

I centered the rear fender arch of the bed over the rear axle (in the stock position, again with a 106 inch wheelbase), then worked my way forward, dropping the body onto the chassis. This gave me a hood length of 30 inches:


By cruzpch at 2007-08-18

30 inches, with some recesses on the lower part of the firewall, gave me enough room for a Nailhead, and I'm running a fan. I really think that if the hood gets much longer, it begins to get kind of snoutish -- especially on the 28s and 29s with their little cowls. I think I had to drop my grille shell about three inches to get it to line up with the cowl height.

 

Detonator, thanks for you input. It all adds up!

BYW, once again that is one of the BEST RPU's on the road!

 

Tman...I used 30/31 hood sides on my sport coupe. According to C9's measurements that would be about a 4" stretch. I just wanted to use the hoodsides. I have a sbc with an uncut firewall.

I did the same as Zach at the firewall. Had to notch the bottom of my grill shell.
Clark

 

Also put the axle just infront of the grill.
Clark

 

Thanks Clark, maybe I miseed a pic of the axle? Got a shot of it?

 

I didn't realize I stretched the thing so much. I would guess the wheelbase is about 8" over stock.....should help the ride.
Clark

 

You can telll it is stretched now that there are pics of shorter cars to compare too.

 

Here's a couple pics that may help.

I'm 6' tall with a 32" inseam and even with the 4" firewall recess no probs with legroom.
Even more than the 32 which isn't too bad.

And . . . I ain't as weird as I look, end of a long hot (100*) day in the garage and only one beer.









Note that the seat is not set back under the rear cockpit rail so it should work ok in a coupe.

Since the 29 & 31 A roadsters along with the Deuce roadster have just about the same cockpit measurements - with the Deuce being 2" deeper - more than likely the same is true with the coupes . . . but like always, measure first....

 

One of the most beautiful pics on the hamb. Gorgeous cars, man, espicially that 44C. Spot on!

 

wow, thanks!

 

you can make a model A hood about 2" longer, and it isn't all that noticeable. Anything more than that, and it starts to get the Pinnochio look!!!

 

look at the speedway catalogs...i know that they give very preicse dimensions for their t frames but i never looked at the a frames.

 

I followed pretty much the same plan as Detonator did with my 29 roadster. I had to lengthen the Model A hood about 3".