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Technical SUSPENSION, how to make your airride RELIABLE...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kustombuilder, Dec 10, 2003.

  1. kustombuilder
    Joined: Sep 18, 2002
    Posts: 7,750

    kustombuilder
    Member
    from Novi, MI

    ...OR, the longest tech post EVER!!

    Air ride suspensions can in fact be a dependable and reliable suspension system if you take the time to set it up properly and use a little common sense during the install. follow these simple tips and you will be on your way to many happy miles of trouble free cruising with your air ride suspension....

    Tip 1. make sure NOTHING can come into contact with the bag at ANY point in it's travel. err on the side of caution and make sure you have MORE than enough room around the bag.

    Tip 2. use some type of thread sealant (the goop or the tape, i've had good luck with both) on all fittings BUT be careful not to get any anywhere that it might get inside the air system. it can cause problems with the valves. better to stay away from the first thread or two with the sealant.

    Tip 3. make sure to keep the plastic airline as far away from any and all heat sources as possible. it will melt even if it isn't TOUCHING anything hot. exhaust systems get VERY hot.

    Tip 4. keep all air lines away from sharp edges that could cut the line or rub through it with time. if you can't run it elsewhere try wrapping it with some type of hose protector or take a piece of thin wall tube (or conduit)that the line will just fit into. slide the hose through it and place the tube at the point of contact. then place a hose clamp or zip tie at either end of the piece of tube to keep it in place. also, anywhere that an airline has to pass through metal (like a firewall) use rubber grommets to protect the hose from the sharp edges of the metal.

    Tip 5. secure all air line so that it will not drag or otherwise get tangled up in anything or rub against any moving parts. take your time when running the lines and THINK and you will have alot less problems with your air system.

    Tip 6. proper bag angle. a lot of people set there suspension up so that the bags are comletely collapsed and laying flat (top and bottom plates parralel) when teh air is let out. what this does when mounted between the frame and the lower A-arm is to make the angle of the top and bottom plates, at ride height, very steep. you want the bag to be as paralel as possible AT RIDE HEIGHT. there will have to be a little comprimise here but the thing to look out for is extreme angle on the bags when inflated to ride height. this does not allow the bag to function properly and it puts all the forces on one side of the bag rather than evenly around the entire bag. your ride will be effected if this is not done correctly and the bags may fail prematurely.

    Tip 7. use a braided stainless "leader hose" for at least the first 12" off from an electric compressor. they do get hot and they WILL melt the plastic line if it runs right to the compressors outlet port. hard line is another option but remember the compressor vibrates and it needs a flexable link to allow it to do so. a little bonus tip is to use a two foot stainless leader hose from the bags as well. it will help eliminate leaks near the bag where they are difficult to get to (plastic line tends to leak "off and on" where it goes into the push fittings). it will also help with abbrasion of the air line where the line has to pass through the frame. this is mostly usefull on the front suspension but it is good to do it all around.

    Tip 8. BUY QUALITY PARTS!!! buy from a reputable distributor. it is better to pay a little more in the begining than all the headaches you will cause for yourself when it breaks down on the side of the road in the middle of BFE on sunday night. don't cut corners or you WILL have problems. isolate the bags so that each one has it's own "fill" valve and it's own "dump" valve. this will not only insure that if there is a problem the entire car will not drop but it will also give much better handling. on that note... keep your sway bars if you have them and add them if you don't. it helps ALOT.

    it costs more to do it "right" but it WILL be worth it.

    and finaly for those that are still a bit paranoid. keep a couple feet of air line and a few fittings (including a couple "butt" fittings) in your trunk with your tools and a sharp knife or air line cutter. just in case... you could even carry an extra bag if your real worried about it, but if it is set up correctly you should be good to go for miles and miles.

    when i worked on semi trucks the only time we ever replaced an air bag on a truck was because it was very old and weather checked or because something had come off the road (ie., they ran something over they should'nt have) and damaged the bag. and semis get WAAAAAAYYY more miles on them than your hot rod is likely to. happy cruisin [​IMG]

    Mike Brimm Kustombuilder
     
  2. Thats some good straight forward advise Mike.
    No. 6 Is something that is over looked quite often Im sure. I have seen what you discribe when the top an dbottom are not paralel at ride height, the bag will bow out on one side.
    Also No.7 Is some thing most people wouldn't think of, the heat generated by the pump motor affecting the plactic hose. I surly didn't consider it.

    Thanks for the input.

    Tech week "KICKS ASS"
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  3. Scrapyard
    Joined: Dec 3, 2003
    Posts: 86

    Scrapyard
    Member

    Good stuff. Number 8 I can vouch for. Don't cut corners on these things. I've been straneded on they side of the road because I tried to save a couple of bucks. Ended up having to pay for the right stuff in the end anyway.
     
  4. I've put at least 30,000 miles on my 48 with only one problem. One of the front bags came loose in the brackets and rubbed the side of the frame causing it to blow. I did everthing in his list and I have no problems. I takes about a mont of sitting for my bags to leak down.
    For those that don't think they are traditional. Caddy and a few others had them in the 50's. Besides I drive the piss out of my truck and I got tired of tearin up fenders and I use my 48 as a truck. It helps to add a few pounds of air when you're pullin a trailer or have a bed full of stuff.
    Clark
     

  5. Could you give a couple of names for reputable distributors or brands to look for? It seems like everyone and their brother is selling air ride stuff now.
     
  6. Smokin Joe
    Joined: Mar 19, 2002
    Posts: 3,770

    Smokin Joe
    Member

    So, how do you keep the neighbor's dog from chewing a hole in your bags? [​IMG]

    Keep it up, I'm going to try bags one of these days.
     
  7. Don't know if this tip would apply to aftermarket air suspensions but when I worked for a Mercedes-Benz dealer years ago there were several model MB's that used Hydropneumatic(air)suspension notably the 600 limousines and the 300sel's.Troubleshooting leaks in the air ride could be a real problem.We had a 600 that would leak air if left outside overnight but not if it was in an unheated garage.Finally by luck traced the leak to a bad fitting located in the rocker panel(from compressor to rear bags).
    Our shop foreman developed kind of a neat way to check the suspension quickly for leaks although today it might be a trifle expensive:He would charge the system with a shot of Freon and use a standard "freon sniffer" to locate the leak.Worked great!Afterwards it was a simple matter to discharge the freon and refill with air.Again I don't know how this would work on aftermarket systems but it sure worked great on Mercedes!
     
  8. Rocket88
    Joined: Jul 11, 2001
    Posts: 912

    Rocket88
    Member

    I got all my stuff from Air Lift. I didn't know enough about air bags to try and piece together my own system. So I bought this kit from them, it has absolutely every thing needed for a complete installation. One safety feature that it has is line and fittings for a shrader valve for each corner. It gets installed between the bag and the deflation solenoid. This allows you to manually put air in the bags if you have too.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Michigan Rick
    Joined: Mar 21, 2002
    Posts: 259

    Michigan Rick
    Member
    from Owosso Mi.

    I like old school air-ride??????
     
  10. Stay away from AIM and all the other names they go by!!!
    Most of the stuff can be gotten at the local big rig shops.
    Clark
     
  11. kustombuilder
    Joined: Sep 18, 2002
    Posts: 7,750

    kustombuilder
    Member
    from Novi, MI

    i am a dealer for Airlift (you should have gotten ahold of me Rocket88. i woulda hooked you up) and i REALLY like their products. they are located about 20 miles from me so i know everyone there quite well and have the inside scoop on new stuff. Airride Technologies is very good as well. i have used their stuff in the past but for obvious reasons i pretty much just use the AirLift stuf now. very good products, a waranty and good tech support is just a call away.

    Mike Brimm
    Killer Kustoms
     
  12. kustombuilder....can you explain the use of YORK/Tecumsah
    a/c compressors for tank fill, such as mounting and drive options if you also have air con. in car? Thanks.
     
  13. james
    Joined: May 18, 2001
    Posts: 1,064

    james
    Member

    Here's a schematic- http://onboardair.com/faq.htm
    You can do it with a junkyard compressor, it just has to have it's own oil resevoir (like a york). I've seen other types used, but then you need to add an oiler and that can open another can of worms. Basically you put a filter on the suction side, then run the other hose to your tank (with a water filter in line). Put a pressure switch on your tank wired to the comp clutch. You should run a check velve to keep the air pressure flowing only one way, and I think that's it. You can even tee off to a ball valve so you can fill tires and stuff. Do a search for 4x4 sites-- they do this for airing down their tires on the trail.If you can fab brackets you can set this up pretty cheap, or spend the $700 or so most of the companies want.
     
  14. Glen
    Joined: Mar 21, 2001
    Posts: 1,789

    Glen
    Member

    I would also suggest you use check valves on the back side of solenoids this will prevent the bag from deflating if the tank was to loose air pressure. The electric solenoids need a little back pressure to keep them up. The manual solenoids will do the same, Try to use a check valve just before your tank feed line goes into your solenoids.

     
  15. truth
    Joined: Oct 27, 2003
    Posts: 401

    truth
    Member
    from Boston, MA

    Kustombuilder, I sent you a PM...
     
  16. Nappy
    Joined: Jul 6, 2001
    Posts: 797

    Nappy
    Member
    from York, PA

    OK- dumbass rookie question here, maybe, but since all the Airride pros are weighing in...
    What component is most important in assuring you're ride's fast getting up and down? Bigger lines, bigger tank, better valves? What has the biggest effect and what limits your inflate/deflate speed most?
    I've noticed a big difference in systems on diffent rides. Not that it makes a huge difference, but if you come up on railroad tracks or something and wanna go up in a hurry what makes the difference? Just the tank?
    Thinking about airride eventually and just wondering.
    Thanks-
    ~ Rob
     
  17. Glen
    Joined: Mar 21, 2001
    Posts: 1,789

    Glen
    Member

    pressure, line size, and solenoid size.

    I ran 1/2" line, 3/8" SMC valves, 145 psi max and it made the car move way too fast.....I installed small brass ball valves which can be adjusted to get it just right.
    especially on the exhaust side, smashing the frame on the ground is not very cool.
     
  18. Rocket88
    Joined: Jul 11, 2001
    Posts: 912

    Rocket88
    Member

    Nappy, Glen hit the nail on the head.
    On my set up I used 1/2" line and big solenoids so that the car will go up fast. On the deflation side I am using a small solenoid so that I have control for setting the ride height.
    As for air pressure, some guys are using dive tanks instead of a compressor. A dive tank has like 3000 PSI in it, they regulate it down to 150 or so depending on what they want to do. It's kinda cool because you don't have a compressor continualy running.
     
  19. Glen
    Joined: Mar 21, 2001
    Posts: 1,789

    Glen
    Member

    Dive tanks are pretty and have nice clean regulators without the big brass mickey eared regulators that look way too dangerous to me. This little bottle lasts me about 6-8 weeks on average and costs $2 to fill.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. autocol
    Joined: Jul 11, 2002
    Posts: 589

    autocol
    Member

    hey glen - isocyanate?

    you funny bastard!

    great post guys. saved away...

     
  21. kustombuilder
    Joined: Sep 18, 2002
    Posts: 7,750

    kustombuilder
    Member
    from Novi, MI

    [ QUOTE ]
    I would also suggest you use check valves on the back side of solenoids this will prevent the bag from deflating if the tank was to loose air pressure. The electric solenoids need a little back pressure to keep them up. The manual solenoids will do the same, Try to use a check valve just before your tank feed line goes into your solenoids.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    this is true with some "cheaper" valves but if you get good valves and and they are installed properly you should not have this problem.
     
  22. kustombuilder
    Joined: Sep 18, 2002
    Posts: 7,750

    kustombuilder
    Member
    from Novi, MI

    there is'nt really a SINGLE thing that would make it faster. it is realy a combination. having the air capacity is a big one (big tank) but the size of the line and the valves is also important in making it go up fast. i usualy instal 15mm fill (1/2") and 10mm dumps (3/8) with 1/2" line and AT LEAST one 5 gallon tank. i think it goes up plenty fast (some say TOO fast) and it goes down nice and smooth but not so slow you have to sit there and hold the button a minute. make sense?? [​IMG] anyway, this is the setup i have come to like best and i have'nt had one customer complain about it either. the only thing most want to change is to add more capacity so they can "play" more. even the %100 duty electric compressors take time to fill the tank so some people want to add a second one. the engine drivens ROCK and wil give you all the air you need right now. keep in mind you don't want TOO MUCH air tank either cause it'll take forever for the compressor to fill it to the max PSI (145 psi typicaly).


    now as for the ENGINE DRIVEN COMPRESSORS. they are great, but pricey and if you have limited space under hood they may be a challenge to install. AirLift has kits for most "popular" applications (late model stuff mostly) but they also offer a DIY kit that includes the compressor and a clutch with either V-belt or serpintine and you can make your own brackets to make it fit your motor and your vehicle. there is no better way to go (in my opinion).

    i have never used the dive tank like Glen has but i have heard of alot of people using them. also compressed nitrogen but those are usually the guys who crank it up to 300- 400 psi and try to "hop" their shit. good way to blow a bag. i think the dive tank would be great if you had an electric compressor and small tank so when you run out you don't get stranded with your car on the ground. with my luck i'd be playin around and not paying attention to how much air i had left until it was too late. nice lookin setup Glen.

    you guys that PMed me, i will get back to you later today. i have to look up some prices and what have you and i'm to tired right now [​IMG]...

    Mike Brimm
     
  23. Glen
    Joined: Mar 21, 2001
    Posts: 1,789

    Glen
    Member

    KB....Your right on the scuba tank....I run a big compressor too. The scuba tank is good for cruising around town, the Buick's ride height is so low you have to raise it to get out of any driveway

    Autocol: I actually removed that plate, I got tired of people stopping me at red lights asking what it means
     
  24. [ QUOTE ]
    also compressed nitrogen but those are usually the guys who crank it up to 300- 400 psi and try to "hop" their shit. good way to blow a bag.

    Mike Brimm

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Just a footnote on using nitrogen:There are 2 types of nitrogen(at least there used to be):water-pumped and oil-pumped.All this means is the type of pump used to compress the gas was either lubricated with water or oil.When I was in the service,the tires on our aircraft(F-4's)were filled with nitrogen(about 450psi for carrier ops)and it was specified that only water-pumped nitrogen be used because oil vapors in the other type could not only rot the tires from the inside but cause an explosive atmosphere within.
     
  25. [ QUOTE ]
    Dive tanks are pretty and have nice clean regulators without the big brass mickey eared regulators that look way too dangerous to me. This little bottle lasts me about 6-8 weeks on average and costs $2 to fill.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    At the risk of sounding stupid.....why do you have to pay for "air"? Is it because of the high pressure involved?
     
  26. Glen
    Joined: Mar 21, 2001
    Posts: 1,789

    Glen
    Member

    the tank is filled to 3000 psi. That requires more than your average home depot compressor..... [​IMG]
     
  27. Ayers Garage
    Joined: Nov 28, 2002
    Posts: 1,382

    Ayers Garage
    Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    the tank is filled to 3000 psi. That requires more than your average home depot compressor..... [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Your local fire station is the place to go. Take junk food up there and ask them to charge your bottle. Our SCBA breathing tanks run 4500 psi and of course we have big ass compressors to fill them. I fill bottles for guys all the time at my station. Only takes a second.
     
  28. If I want to build a system from scratch,
    how do I know what size bags to get?I imagine vehicle weight might have something to do with it.

    And how do I know how high the bags will be when inflated?Might come in handly when designing brackets.
     
  29. Unk... Firestone has a small book with a chart on bag sizes and their dimensions. It has the height inflated and deflated. Check with your local big rig parts house. Meanwhile I'll see if I can find the copy I had.
    Clark
     
  30. Unk...It's more like a flyer about 3 or 4 pages. Didn't want to mislead you with that "book" remark.
    Clark
     

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