Ok, so blakes are bled, I have a pedal, but its spongy, seems the brakes need adjusting. The worm/shell gear whatever you want to call it obviously gets tighter/looser as you rotate it, however is there a good rule of thumb for how they "Should" be set? I am starting at completely free rolling, all of the way loose, i always go for the slightest drag of shoes, is this the way to go, or do you guys have some advice? Les
If you are using original 39 brakes, I would suggest you take the drum off one and see how they operate. I could explain it here, and I'm sure others after me will chime in and try to tell you, but once you see how they operate, then adjusting them will become a whole lot easier. HellRaiser
I have had them all apart and rebuilt them, I am just wondering how I should adjust them, front shoe and back shoe have own adjuster, should all be loose, moderate, tight, etc. Should the front shoe or back shoe adjustmenst be equal, etc.
I have to pull my drums on my truck this weekend to do what your asking. I like to have a slight drag, then back it off one click. You don't want them freewheeling imho. Also, on the later with the spoon adjuster. We always did adjustment by lifting car, spinning tire, and adjust till the shoes just started to drag. All wheels.
Also you could have the shoes grind arched to drums. If needed. http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40674&highlight=arched+shoes
you may want to try this way. Remove drum center shoes bottom equal amount,now expand to 1/8 less then drum 12 -11 7/8 if they hit on top grind off whats in way. That should get you good to go close enought.
Saxon, I do the same thing, getting it in the air seems to be best way, ok, than I have it right, have to look at lines and M/C next.
don't forget about the top adjuster's.......lots of guy's only do the bottoms. start with the back shoes then go to the front with slight drag at all four drums.... if pedal is still spongy you have air in sys.or another problem this is how I do mine pedal is very firm......
Hate to say it ,but do a search. The 39-42 style with the bottom adjustable anchors take a very specific adjusting sequence for proper operation. And if your drums are over .040 OS and the shoes were not arced to the drum even with the correct adjustment you likely will have a spongy pedal until the shoes get seated.
I don't like bad answers. You're on the right track having them all loose. Adjust the bottoms first till they just start to resist then back off just a hair. Then adjust the tops until they do the same...You're done, further adjustments as brakes wear will be just the tops. What you have are excellent front brakes for a light hot rod. Don't ever let anyone tell you you need to upgrade to discs for better braking...
********************** BRAKES ********************** ‘39 THROUGH ’48 FORDS AND MERCS: These brakes were designed by Lockheed. Hydraulic pressure expands the wheel cylinder cups which push the shoes against the drum. The shoes are NOT self-energizing. The Lockheed system is a front/rear shoe design with the bottom pivot for each shoe firmly anchored to the backing plate. These require considerably more pedal pressure to stop than self energizing brakes because they rely solely on hydraulic pressure. The front shoes do most of the stopping and use the longer friction band. The rear shoes have the shorter friction band. ‘39-’48 LINCOLNS (and ‘49 and up Ford/Merc): These are manufactured by Bendix. They are self energizing (often referred to as duo servo) brakes. The shoes are linked to each other at the bottom, but are not attached to the backing plate like the Lockheed design. The system is a primary/secondary shoe (not forward/rear) design. The primary is the front shoe in all wheels. The top of the primary shoe is moved outward by hydraulic pressure to contact the drum. The rotation of the drum “wedges” against the primary shoe and moves it downward. Since the bottom of the shoes are not attached to the backing plate, this movement is transmitted through the bottom of the secondary shoe. This force moves the bottom of the secondary shoe outward where it now “wedges” into the drum. This increases braking and decreases brake pedal effort. This results in considerably more braking force than the sheer hydraulic pressure design used in the earlier Lockheed brakes. Since the Bendix uses self energizing action, the primary (front) shoe has the shorter friction band and the secondary (rear) shoe has the longer friction band. F-100 BRAKES FOR EARLY FORDS: These are Bendix brakes. Conversions require drums, backing plates, and hubs from a ‘53-’56 Ford F-100. These drums use the same large bolt wheel pattern as the ‘40 through ‘48 Fords do. One pair of Timken 14116 inner bearings, one pair of CR Services 15214 oil seals, and both ‘37-’48 Ford spindles are needed. The ‘39 through ‘41 spindles have a round flange and require modifying because the wheel cylinder won’t clear the spindle flange. Grind off the top of the flange that interferes with the wheel cylinder. The ‘42-’48 spindles have a somewhat square flange which clears the wheel cylinder and grinding is not required. On both round and square flanges, the new inner bearing has a square shoulder which conflicts with the rounded race on the spindle. Grind the inside of the bearing race to round it slightly so the bearing will fit snugly against the spindle’s mounting face. Every thing else is a bolt up. EARLY WIRE WHEELS ON ‘40 THROUGH ’48 DRUMS: When using early spoke wheels, spacers are needed between the drum and the wheel because the early drums have a taper where the wheel meets the drum. The ‘40-’48 disc wheels did not have this taper. If the drums are bolted up without the adapter, the drum won’t be seated tight against 2 the drum and all force is transmitted directly to the wheel lugs... not a good thing. SQUEAKING BRAKES: Squeaking can be caused by oil or brake fluid on the brake linings. But squeaking can also be inadequate lubrication in some locations. Put a small film of grease, or a single drop of oil, wherever the metal part of the shoe contacts anything metallic. This includes; the shoe to backing plate rub points, where the emergency brake cable connects to the actuating arm, the emergency brake actuating arm pivot pin and wave washer, where the emergency brake cable exits the cable’s housing, the brake shoe holding pins and washers, and wherever the springs etc. come into contact with the shoe or backing plate. An old trick we used to use was to stretch a screen door spring around the brake drum to dampen drum vibrations. This worked..... sometimes. If your brakes have been in use for some time and they begin squeaking, try going over the linings with 80 grit sand paper to remove any glaze. Just scuff them enough to break the glaze. ************************* ADJUSTING BRAKES ********************* ADJUSTING ANCHOR PINS ON ‘39 THROUGH ’48 FORD/MERC BRAKES: These are Ford Lockheed (not Bendix) brakes and use special brass washers in conjunction with eccentric anchor bolts to position the shoe. The top of the shoes are controlled by eccentric cams. The anchor bolts at the bottom of the backing plate control the shoe position by rotating eccentric washers at the bottom of the shoes. Make sure the anchor bolts turn freely. ‘39-’41: These anchor bolts have locating marks indented on the elongated head adjusting bolt. These anchor bolts extend through the backing plates and are adjusted externally after loosening their large external lock nuts. The elongated ¼" head has either a punched dot or a stamped arrow for reference when making anchor adjustments. After adjusting the shoes, the adjustor lock nuts are tightened without permitting rotation of the anchor pin adjusters. ‘42-’48: The anchor pins are essentially the same as the ‘39-’41 brakes but do not have any reference marks. But, unlike the ‘39-’41 brakes, the lock nuts are located internally on the inside of the backing plate. The large round bolt heads on the outside of the backing plate have no dots or stamped arrows, but have a plain round head (similar to a carriage bolt). The drum must be removed to loosen/tighten the anchor adjustor’s lock nut and to adjust the anchor pins. Removing the drums to adjust the anchors is next to impossible during brake shoe adjusting (the top adjusters have to be adjusted so the wheel cannot be turned). It’s a lot easier if a groove is ground across the rounded head for a bladed screwdriver. Then a screwdriver can be used on the outside as a substitute for the 1/4" elongated bolt used on “39 through ‘41 models. After adjusting, The drum has to be removed to tighten the anchor pins lock nuts. Always rotate the wheel in the same direction the wheel turns as the car moves forward. 3 (1) Slightly loosen both anchor bolt lock nuts on one wheel. On ‘39- ’41, turn the 1/4" adjuster so the locator marks on the two shoes face each other. On ‘42-’48, remove the drums and turn the anchor pins so the wide part of their brass washers face each other and re-install the brake drum. All further adjustments are made by turning the anchor bolt adjusters in a specific direction..... (a) The front anchor bolt adjusters on both wheels on the drivers side are turned counter-clockwise (looking at the back side of the backing plate)...... the rear anchor bolt adjusters are turned clockwise. (b) The front anchor bolt adjusters on both wheels on the passenger side are turned clockwise (looking at the back side of the backing plate)......... the rear anchor bolt adjusters are turned counter-clockwise. (2) Back off the upper 11/16" cams on both shoes until the drum turns freely. (3) Turn one of the upper adjusting 11/16" cams until the wheel cannot be turned. Then adjust its 1/4" anchor bolt in the correct direction until the wheel turns (this lowers the shoe and moves the toe of the shoe away from the drum which will result in fuller shoe contact). (4) Now repeat previous step (3) over and over on the same shoe until turning the anchor bolt will not free-up the wheel. (5) Back off the anchor pin very slightly until the wheel will just barely turn. Tighten the anchor pin lock nut and proceed to the backing plate’s other shoe before going on to the next wheel. TIP: If you’re installing new shoes which have been arc-ground to fit a newly turned drum, you normally won’t have to go through the preceding exercise. Turn the dots/arrows on ‘39-’41 models (or the wide part of the brass washers on ‘42-’48 models) until they’re facing towards each other. This correctly positions the brake shoes and you don’t have to go thru the anchor pin adjusting..... just adjust the upper 11/16" cam adjusters. ***************** WHEEL & MASTER CYLINDERS ***************** WHEEL CYLINDERS ON FORD LOCKHEED BRAKES: Because these brake systems rely solely on hydraulic pressure to push the shoe against the drum, the shoes which have the longer frictional bands need more pressure than the shoes with the shorter amounts of frictional material. Most Lockheed wheel cylinders use two different sizes of cups. The larger size cup is for the forwardmost shoe (longest friction band). HONING: Honing wheel and/or master cylinders during rebuilding is critical. Use of cutting oil in place of kerosene or solvent when honing hydraulic cylinders will produce a superior surface in considerably less time. The hone scores made using cutting oil provide a much better sealing surface than when using solvent or kerosene. Be sure to thoroughly clean the cylinder after honing. 4 BLEEDING A REPLACEMENT MASTER CYLINDER. This is used only when replacing a master cylinder. Because all of the air is usually located at the master cylinder’s fitting connections, it will often bleed back into the master cylinder with a little coaxing. Top off the master cylinder and install the cap. Pump the brake pedal about 10 pumps quickly (it’ll be close to the floor). Then allow air to dissipate for a minute or so. Repeat another 10 pumps and wait. Top off the brake fluid. Repeat it once more. After the third time, the air should have bled off and you should have a firm pedal. If you don’t have a firm pedal, try it a couple more times. If you don’t have a firm pedal, there is air elsewhere in the system and you’ll have to bleed the whole car. Beats jacking up the car and bleeding each wheel. If you’re going to flush the system you get to bleed all four wheels. SILICONE BRAKE FLUID: Neat stuff and it doesn’t eat paint. I don’t use it except in something that’s primarily a show car. Reasoning? I find the brake pedal feels softer than when using regular DOT 3 brake fluid. Also, the Rocky Mountains where I live, have some fairly high mountain roads and passes. And for some reason I don’t know, frequent and/or abrupt altitude changes will often cause the silicone brake fluid to become somewhat cloudy because it’s absorbed a very minute quantity of air. This makes for a soft brake pedal that may go clear to the floor. After the car sits for a few hours, the air dissipates from the silicone and the pedal returns to its former status and feel. If I’m hauling it at speed into a neat corner (we all play don’t we?) I sure get nervous if the brake pedal feels spongy or like it’s going away..... my heart can’t stand too much excitement anymore! However, many use silicone with absolutely no problems. As with all this garbage, this is just my opinion. (From rodnut on 1/30/03: Another problem is it will damage the diaphragm in hydraulic brake light switches. Use a mechanical type brake light switch.) BLEEDING A DRUM/DISC BRAKE SYSTEM: If you’re running a combination brake system (disc front and drum rear) you’re probably using a proportional valve to limit hydraulic pressure to the rear brakes. Bleeding this type of system is different than bleeding an all-drum system. The proportional valve for the drums shuts down when it senses any pressure in excess of the proportional valve’s pressure setting. Consequently we can’t just have a buddy stomp on the brake pedal and bleed the system. Pressure brake bleeders are mostly limited to 15 psi to keep from activating a proportional valve or metering valve. If you don’t have a pressure bleeder, have your buddy push the brake pedal gently (like with only his big toe) so the pedal applies very little pressure while you bleed the system. SOFT BRAKE PEDAL ON A DISC/DRUM BRAKE SYSTEM: Sometimes after you’ve worked on either the disc or drum brakes the pedal is soft and feels like “it’s going away” when stopping. Scary isn’t it? The cause is often the rear drum brakes are out of adjustment. Especially 5 if you’re just converting to front disc brakes. Adjust these puppies fairly snug and see if it doesn’t help the pedal. A disc brake rubber flex hose expands considerably due to high hydraulic pressure unless it’s new or in top shape. Some come with multi-bands of steel wrapped around them to strengthen them. Have a buddy stomp on your brake pedal hard when your hand is wrapped around your rubber flex hose. Does it expand? One cure I use (instead of replacing it with another new rubber hose) is to use a steel braided flex hose. These are usually cheaper than a stock Ford rubber flex hose and help firm the brake pedal. ************************** BRAKE DRUMS ************************* PULLING A BRAKE DRUM WHEN A PULLER IS NOT AVAILABLE. These can try the patience of any man. The following is certainly not intended to replace a correct puller, but it’s saved me several times when the correct tools weren’t available. I use a bumper jack and the weight of the car to help break the drum loose. Let’s say you want to pull the right brake drum. Get the car on a reasonably level surface and block both ends of both front wheels to prevent forward or backward motion. Release the emergency brake and take it out of gear. Leave the right side wheel bolted to the drum and remove the right axle nut and washer. Invert the nut and put it back on the axle sans washer (don’t want to pound on the castellated part) until it’s flush with the axle end. Jack up the left rear side of the car with a bumper jack. Get it high enough so the left rear wheel is off the ground a few inches. Grab a hand sledge hammer (to persuade the drum to loosen). Go back to the right rear wheel. Plant your butt against the fender or body and lean against the car. Lean hard enough so it feels like it’s about to rock off the bumper jack. Then hit the axle nut a few times while you’re leaning hard against the car. The tipping weight of the car pulls against the right wheel that is still on the ground. The drum will usually come loose after only a few healthy swings. And if the flathead gods are smiling down on you, you didn’t damage the axle threads so bad that a couple of swipes with a file won’t cure. INSTALLING AN EARLY REAR BRAKE DRUM: When installing a rear brake drum on a ‘48 and older car, wipe a light coat of anti-seize compound on both the axle taper and the key. This makes future drum removals a lot easier. Tightening the axle nut is covered in the GEAR SECTION of this garbage pile
Holy shit Striper thats a 101 on Ford brakes, just putting a set in my car at the moment so that info couldn't have come at a better time. Thanks for posting
Have a look at this previous thread. In particular the Service Bulletins that set out the procedure. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=463568&highlight=brakes