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Old 09-24-2012, 08:46 AM   #61
mk e
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by islerodreaming View Post
So Mark

Well, here we are on another forum following another crazy engine build..

The hot rodder in me is really looking forward to this one but please, please, finish the ferrari first - some of us are not getting any younger!!

John
And after the engine build we can all move to the boat forum for the boat build

http://www.glen-l.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17404

I need to get the Lincoln torn down, cleaned up and out of the way, then I'll get back to finishing up the ferrari.

I've have a set of 308QV heads coming for the laying on of hand the end of Oct I think........I'd like to have my TR heads ready to go on the flow bench right behind them and then I'll probably slide some basic flow measurement work on the Lincoln in behind that.

I think Lana and I have come to terms on the fact that after about a year shop time should return as scheduled as a normal event and it looks like we've settled on Sat/Sun mornings. This is really what the hold-up has been lately and the current goal is for the ferrari to run in the spring. Lana is kind of excited about the idea of having a boat and she knows the Ferrari is ahead of it so that seems to be helping
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Old 09-24-2012, 06:14 PM   #62
Bruce Lancaster
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

On the pump...find a way to grip it as close to the block and try to rotate the casting. Anything else will likely snap it off. Look into '49-51 Lincoln as a POSSIBLE high output pump...it goes into a V8 with minor mods.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:10 PM   #63
mk e
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

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Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster View Post
On the pump...find a way to grip it as close to the block and try to rotate the casting. Anything else will likely snap it off. Look into '49-51 Lincoln as a POSSIBLE high output pump...it goes into a V8 with minor mods.
Thank you Bruce!

doesn't somebody make a high volume pump for the ford....Melling? or is that what you're talking about?

Ah, this guy:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mellin...ume,21497.html
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:13 PM   #64
Bruce Lancaster
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

Well, the Lincoln 337 pump is a real Lincoln part, which fits into a V8 Ford block by just hacking off its distributor drive...just cooler than a repro aftermarket pump. Not really need for Ford, but the V-12 is not noted for its oil pressure...
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:03 PM   #65
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

Something to think about down the line, as your build progresses . . .

The Lincoln V12 shares some of the troubled cooling system design of the early Ford V8 -- essentially poor circulation. It wasn't until 1948 with the 8BA motor first seen in the F-1 truck, intro'd some months later in the 1949 passenger car, that cooling-system problems were substantially reduced, if not completely eliminated.

Hardly a major redesign, the new solution could have come from the re-think of the post-war cadre of young techies, if not within the established Ford engineering departments that had been re-educated and upgraded during the war years. No matter, it worked, and I believe it's an upgrade that should be incorporated on any Ford L-head V8 that lacks it.

I feel that this simple upgrade of encouraging a substantial amount of coolant flow to the back of the block before sending it back to the radiator might work as well on the Lincoln V12 block as it does on the Ford V8.

Here is Ford's pre-8BA deck; pardon the image, it's not my work, but it does illustrate the standard early coolant transfer passages.


Here are the coolant transfer passages in the Lincoln V12 block -- rather restrictive.


Here are the coolant transfer passages on a typical 8BA/8CM block -- Ford's cool-running flathead. This is a simple mod to make to your Lincoln V12 block as well as to the heads. And remember to alter your head gaskets to accommodate the new transfer ports.


Mike
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:01 AM   #66
mk e
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

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Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster View Post
Well, the Lincoln 337 pump is a real Lincoln part, which fits into a V8 Ford block by just hacking off its distributor drive...just cooler than a repro aftermarket pump. Not really need for Ford, but the V-12 is not noted for its oil pressure...
I guess I need to take a good long look and see who's got the biggest pump that will fit. I'd much rather waste a little hp with maybe unneeded oil pressure than change wasting a crank with insufficient oil pressure.

The V12 has it's distributor on the front so I'm guessing the "hacking off its distributor drive" would also apply to getting that pump into the V12.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:51 AM   #67
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

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Something to think about down the line, as your build progresses . . .

The Lincoln V12 shares some of the troubled cooling system design of the early Ford V8 -- essentially poor circulation. It wasn't until 1948 with the 8BA motor first seen in the F-1 truck, intro'd some months later in the 1949 passenger car, that cooling-system problems were substantially reduced, if not completely eliminated.

..................

Mike
Thanks Mike, those are great pics.

I am concerned about the cooling and the more I read and look at the parts the more concerned I get. A while back I spent a couple years designing the air, fuel and coolant flow on fuel cell systems (they are insanely sensitive to temperature differences) so I feel pretty comfortable saying the stock Lincoln system breaks nearly all of the basic flow and flow distribution rules.

I think you're right that the wholes in the deck need some attention. Modern engines tend to send the water in the front into a fairly large volume area in the block so they get fairly uniform pressure in the block. Then they all but block the inside hole int he deck which forces the water to flow into the head from the outside (where the exhaust heat is), then again they have fairly good volume to get uniformish flow over the combustion chambers and to the exist. The ferrari's go a step further and use a large chamber in the the valley of the block to get extremely uniform pressure (within about 0.1 pis) flow to each cylinder and then "U the coolant flow past each cylinder up into the head, then out the head at each cylinder into another coolant manifold...really well designed, flow distribution just doesn't get better.

The Lincoln does none of this as far as I can tell

I think the first thing I want to try is putting the heads on opposite sides to move the coolant outlet to the rear. In theory this will help a lot in getting equal flow to each cylinder because pressure drops front to back in the block are exactly countered by pressure drops in the head front to back. The heads I ordered also have more generous flow area which should also help even things out a bit more.

Then it's on to the sizes of the passages in the deck. From the pics it looks like Ford gave that some thought and increased the flow past the exhaust runners in their re-do, but on the Lincoln just as much of the flow is directed past the intake runners that aren't hot so that is just wasted coolant flow. I'm thinking open up the exhaust and restrict the intake to get the coolant where it can cool and hopefully get a better balance....hopefully.

I really want to figure out some kind of insulation inside the exhaust ports. At the moment I'm leaning toward Calico coatings CT-2 thermal barrier coating.....but the search continues
http://www.calicocoatings.com/indust...motive-racing/
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:59 AM   #68
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

Look over the 1946 cooling changes (with retroactive application published) on the V-8. And of course look at the gaskets, as block holes are frequently not the restriction, opening size is finally dictated by the holes in the gaskets.
8BA pushed most of the coolant all the way aft, then forward length of head, a design that could be applied to the V-12...but not to the '39-48 V8's because outlet is at middle, hence the design of feeding water upward at ends thence to center. The changes in 1946 which were designed to be applicable to earlier with minor work throttled the center more, and slightly biased flow to rear to compensate for the longer trip...
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:02 AM   #69
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

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Originally Posted by Bruce Lancaster View Post
Look over the 1946 cooling changes (with retroactive application published) on the V-8. And of course look at the gaskets, as block holes are frequently not the restriction, opening size is finally dictated by the holes in the gaskets.
8BA pushed most of the coolant all the way aft, then forward length of head, a design that could be applied to the V-12...but not to the '39-48 V8's because outlet is at middle, hence the design of feeding water upward at ends thence to center. The changes in 1946 which were designed to be applicable to earlier with minor work throttled the center more, and slightly biased flow to rear to compensate for the longer trip...
Yeah, the outlet could be kept on the front then get things balanced better with throttling. Throttling solutions are flow rate sensitive which means rpm sensitive when the pump is crank driven, but I guess it doesn't really much matter if the cooling is 100% at low rpm because you tend not to be making a lot of heat at lower rpms.

A lot to think about........it seems like getting the holes sizes right would take some trial and error type work to translate the V8 solution to a V12.

A buddy of mine had a BB ford cooling system on his flow bench once. It was a drag car that belonged to one of his buddies and has all kinds of trouble with over heating on the line if staging went long. I know there was grinding on the water pump itself and I think some in the block with the final result being a 100% increase in floe (on the head flow bench with air)which translated into and no more heat issue at the track. I guess something similar could be done on the lincoln.......hmmm this is also kind of the opposite of a throttling solution I guess.

The more I think about it the more I'm leaning toward a "back to basics" approach and just start fixing things that break standard good design rules.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:27 AM   #70
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

Here's where my brain is headed on the piston......I guess I really need to draw up the cylinder and head so it's a little more clear what this shape does exactly.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:30 PM   #71
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

I have installed a pair of these water pump deflectors made of brass in the block cavity directly behind the water pump to help the water flow toward the back of the two cylinders the furthest from the pumps # 11 and 12. Prior to installing these deflectors the water pump impellers would rush water directly behing the water pump block cavity and not having enough volume to help the water flow to the two rear cylinders. So by adding these two deflectors it is helping the cooling.

Thanks
Frenchy
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:07 AM   #72
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

Frenchy, are those something you made up or did you find them somewhere?
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:20 AM   #73
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

I've been playing a little with what maybe could be done piston/chamber wise and very honestly it's hurting my brain a bit. Here's a couple screen shots that show what I was talking about when I said the head could be built up to make it drop into the cylinder a bit to help the air make the turn down into the cylinder.

I still show a sharp edge that would obviously need to go away and it doesn't quite match the piston I showed earlier (which needs to change to match the head)....but this is what I'm thinking concept wise.....very open and smooth through the center flow area.

I may do a little more filling to start the turn down a little more toward the valve side of the piston. I only play solid modeling about 1 week a year these days so I'm slow and it takes me a bit to figure out how to make it draw what's in my head......I'll keep playing.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:25 AM   #74
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

They use to sell them back a few years ago. But if you need a pair I'll send you a pair at no charge let me know. E mail me your address.

Thanks

Frenchy
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:53 PM   #75
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

I have a bunch of lincoln v12 stuff I probably going to sell.Great build by the way
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:20 PM   #76
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

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They use to sell them back a few years ago. But if you need a pair I'll send you a pair at no charge let me know. E mail me your address.

Thanks

Frenchy
Thanks Frenchy!

I'm scared to take them though because I'm not exactly sure what I'm planning cooling system wise and would hate to have you send them and them end up not using them. Hopefully you'll still have them once I realize my "reverse the heads" plan is silly and what I really need is flow directors just like the ones you have.
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:25 PM   #77
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

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Thanks Frenchy!

I'm scared to take them though because I'm not exactly sure what I'm planning cooling system wise and would hate to have you send them and them end up not using them. Hopefully you'll still have them once I realize my "reverse the heads" plan is silly and what I really need is flow directors just like the ones you have.

No problem let me know when you are ready for them.

Frenchy
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:04 PM   #78
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

Following this build!

Love this lin in one of your posts:

...I'm going to have to rummage through the shop and see what I have for ebayable items kicking around.....becasue I didn't tell Lana about the cool new heads I ordered yet either
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:52 AM   #79
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

I've really been struggling to find time.....


The oil pump is out thanks to my 3ft crescent wrench. I guess the issue was it is seized so it had to be rotated out.

With the oil pump out of the way I could finally pull the crank.....that thing is frikin HEAVY! I after a couple "how am I going to grap this thing and not hurt myself" attempts it finally occurred to me that I wasn't and really needed the crane. Now I have to figure out how to get it into the press to get the flywheel and balancer off.

Normally I like the tear-down part......but this is not a fun tear-down so far. Everything is either stuck, covered with waxy/oil gick, too heavy to lift or in the case of the crank all of the above.

I guess figuring out how to get the pistons out will be next.....I'm not looking forward to that.

The only good news so far is a buddy will be sending a set of heads for porting in a week of 2 and which will mean unbudgeted cash to pay for the cool new finned aluminum Lincoln heads so Lana won't kill me....the bad news is of course that I need to set the time aside to actually do the work.

The other good news about that porting job is it includes a request for a solution to convert a mechanical injection system (bosche CIS) to programmable electronic control that leaves it looking stock. This is basically exactly the system that was going through my brain to fuel this project when I get to that point... something that looks 1940's/50s correct but functions to modern standards so now I have a real reason to design it.

I have played a bit more with the head...and solidworks is still not completely cooperating .....I'm getting closer thought I think.....baby steps.....
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Old 11-02-2012, 03:36 AM   #80
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Default Re: V12 lincoln build thread

Hi Mark

I'm assuming you have seen this:

http://blogs.hotrod.com/blown-v-12-l...eah-32555.html

It brings to mind what I expect yours will look like when it is done.

John
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