Technical Dodge Plymouth flathead questions. Need Mopar guys help!

[dart165]

A quick back story: The motor on my '54 Plymouth Savoy decided to end its own life on the highway last week. I don’t have the money for a rebuild, plus I have a 241 hemi that will take the rebuild money when I do have it, so in the mean time I bought another flatty locally to swap in to get a few more seasons out of the car before the "real" resto starts. I pulled the motor, set the 2 side by side and now I have a few questions, and will probably have more before this is all said and done

Specs:
Blown motor coming out: 1954 Plymouth motor (I assume it's a 218)

"New" motor going in: 1951 dodge motor. Was in a running '53 m-37 military truck but owner did a 100pt resto, and wanted a numbers matching 53 date coded motor so took this out. I assume this is a 218 as well... though I can’t be sure.>>

Questions: (I apologize in advance if any of these are stupid)

1.) The motor mounts from the front of the engine, and the mount rubber on mine is pretty wasted. Does anyone know where I can find one? New would be great if anyone makes em, otherwise used and not shredded like mine is better than nothing.

2.) Were there any major differences in the 51 to the 54 motors? >>
-I see the crank case is sealed on the 54 motor, and the flywheel/mount is different.
-It also appears that the oil lines are in different places: where the 54 has active lines, the 51 is plugged... (I’ll add pics tonight to show you guys what i mean)
-Are there 2 different lengths of head bolts? Seems like some of the bolts from the head of the 54 motor are too long for the 51 motor.>>

3.) I pulled the bell housing off the trans (3 speed) to change the flywheel and noticed there was gasket that goes between the bell housing and the trans body. Anyone know where i can find one of those, or should I just gasket seal the snot out of it before it goes back together?

Thanks in advance!
-Chris


...And because threads without pictures are like 70's action flics without T&A, here a pic of the car pre-engine suicide.

[wallyringo]

You try can http://www.oldmoparts.com/l.htm for the parts.

[GeezersP15]

Hop over to the P15-D24 website. It's dedicated to Mopar flatheads. If you can't find the answers you need thru a search, post your questions and someone will come to your rescue.

[Bryan G]

Steele Rubber will rebuild ("revulcanize") your old motor mount; the catalog says 3 week turnaround.

[Bobacuda]

www.vintagepowerwagons.com will have the motor mount and the info on the engines.

[TomT]

I have no info for you (sorry) but I have to say that's a really nice looking car - good luck on the swap ...

[plym_46]

Depending on the time of year it could be a 218 or it could be a 230, thee was a mid year changeover. The difference is in the stroke. You can measure the stroke by removing the plug in the head over #6 cylinder. This access allows you to iesrt a piece of stiff wire (make sure it long enough) that will ride up and down on the piston as you hand crank the engine. 4 2/8 = 218, 4 5/8= 230. They should be a bolt for bolt swap unless the the car was equipped witht he HYdrive transmission system. this engine shared oil with the trans and they are not iterchangable for or with non hydrive units.

You may need to swap thing like oil pans, oil pickups and dipsticks as some of the trucks had dipsticks mounted to the oil pa and cars gennerally were through the block above the pan. MAke sure the engines are the same length as some of the military units may have used the 25 inch long block vs the Dodge and plymouth 23.5 You can use it if its the longer but you will have to move your radiator at a minimum and possible notch and reinforce the front ccrossmember. Some of the military spec engines used different oil filters and if they were water proofed different distributors and oil fill pipes and crank breathers.

The gasket between the bell and the trans is to keep oil in the trans. The gear rods ride in what is basically an open hole in the front of the trans. WO the gasket they will leak hard. The gasket is no longer available commercially but its easy to make one. Some folks have reported trying to seal the hole with silicone but with no good results.

Vintage Power wagons should have the rear motor mounts but do pay attention as the drivers side is different than the pass side and they need to bo back in the correct way. You might as well order a front mount at the same time they are only about 20 bucks and the old ones are usually delaminated if the rears are beat. You may alo have to change the frot motor mount plate from the car to the truck motor.

Also the Dodge crank flange may be thicker than the plymouth crank as they were designed to support the heavier Fluid drive unit used by dodge cars. so you may need to use the starter from the donor motor as the bendix is likely a hair longer to make up the reach difference. The Dodge crank will also have 8 holes, the Plymouth 4 or 6. The plymouth flywheel will fit but you have to rotate it to fing the correct aligment as the holes are not concentric. As for the other details just make the incoming like the one you pulled out as to where the oil pressure gauge feeds, and the older will be set up for a mechanical temp gauge and the later engines had a temp light instead.

[dart165]

Thanks for all the info guys. As far as the motor mounts, I used Oldmoparts.com (thanks Wallyringo), and have since picked up a few other odds, ends gaskets and fittings.

Plym 46, I checked, and they are the same block length, though i haven't checked the stroke yet. As to the crank flange, you are right. The Dodge motor's is a good 3/16" thicker (though it only has 4 holes versus the 54 plymouth motors 6). Luckily the motor I bought came with the fly wheel, or i'd have been SOL. They are totally diferent, as far as depth. After doing a whole bunch of measuring, i've found that the location of the teeth on the dodge fly wheel are within a 16th of the plymouth one, so my starter should still work.
Upon closer inspection of the oil lines, I've found that all they should match up, though there does seem to be a water outlet on the driver side of the dodge block that is blocked off on the 54 plymouth motor. I'll just switch the block off plug over.

Question : The new motor is missing one of the exhaust mainifold bolts...do auto parts stores have that kind of thing sittin on the shelf? Really it's just a double ended threaded rod. I will try and pull one from the old motor, though how much success i'll have with that is anyones guess.

Some pics of the motor comin out, and the ensuing clean up:

[kyvetteman]

I'm not able to offer any help with your questions, but man that Savoy is sweet! good luck with the swap!

[plym_46]

that is the same intake set up I am running on my 56 230 motor. If you can you might think about re reouting the fuel line from the pump to the block to run behind the heater plenum. these puppies are sensitive to fule perculation and any thing you can do to keep the fuel away from the exhaust manifold or headers is a good idea.

Another thing is with those 4 inch air cleaners. they really do not flow enough to provide a proper mixture. either stack them in pairs o each carb or try to find or make something with more filter surface. I made my own housing for a 4 x 8 oval filter and the plugs went from sooty black to nice toasty brown just with that change. the manifold stud is pretty common, pull another one take it to the parts store and match it up.

[dart165]

good thought, plym 46. The plan is to run the fuel line along the bottom of the block and up the firewall where the fuel splitter block will be mounted. Also, I would like to switch to the bigger pill shaped edmunds... i like the look more and they're for sure be better flow.... I just dont have the loot to make that happen... yet.

In the meantime, i've been answering my original questions by trial and error, and things are moving smoothly. I've got the new motor dressed up and have painted/polished anything worth painting or polishing. I decided to forgo the factory silver and shoot the motor in the same blue that I used on my steelies. I thnk it should make for a cool look.

Here's some more pics of the progress:

[RC Kid]

I just bought a 1954 Plymouth Savoy with the Hy-Drive option. It's a really neat car.

Good luck on your engine swap. I look forward to reading more about it as you go along.

[dart165]

Nice! and a good deal too. My buddy and I were eyeballing that car but he has his heart set on a Wayfarer. That's a solid little car though. Good luck with it!

[Rusty O'Toole]

The double ended threaded rod is called a stud, they are available at auto parts stores. Be sure to put thread sealer such as Permatex #2 on the studs, they go into the water passage and can leak if not sealed.

You can easily make your own gaskets. Buy gasket material if you are rich, or use brown paper bags and old cereal boxes like the rest of us.

Cut the gasket by holding the paper or cardboard against the work piece and tapping around the edge with a hammer. Use the round end of a ball pein to make holes, or for small holes, a paper punch like you use in school. There is a special punch for this with a ball bearing in the end but you can get along without it.

I don't know why there should be a gasket between the bellhousing and trans. What kind of trans is it? Are there oil passages in there? Dodge used some weird and wonderful transmissions about that time.

[R Pope]

First, WOW! That is one sweet lil' Pilgrim!
I suggest you keep the ironing-board 6 and rebuild the 241 for another project. The steering box is a major problem with putting the wide little Hemi in that body. You could swap in a rack and pinion, I guess, but the six with dual carbs and twin pipes will sound SO cool........

[servi53]

great car, good that you could save it without too much trouble

[Skeezix]

I have used Atlas in the pre Internet days they were square dealers then
http://www.atlaschrys.com/

[murfman]

Originally Posted by R Pope

First, WOW! That is one sweet lil' Pilgrim!
I suggest you keep the ironing-board 6 and rebuild the 241 for another project. The steering box is a major problem with putting the wide little Hemi in that body. You could swap in a rack and pinion, I guess, but the six with dual carbs and twin pipes will sound SO cool........

Is the 53-4 Plymouth frame That different than the 53-54 Dodge frame? I know they used the same bodies on the 'Burbans. And most of the driveline and suspension stuff is the same, so I'd think the 241 would drop right in.

[dart165]

Originally Posted by murfman

Is the 53-4 Plymouth frame That different than the 53-54 Dodge frame? I know they used the same bodies on the 'Burbans. And most of the driveline and suspension stuff is the same, so I'd think the 241 would drop right in.

That's what I always figured as well, which is why I grabbed the 241 for it. It came out of a 54 dodge Montana state police car, and has an overdrive trans

[dart165]

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