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Old 11-29-2006, 10:55 PM   #61
willys36
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by backyardbeliever
Oh and here is some hardware if anybody cares. This is what i believe to be B&M's first two products. A hydro shifter (Verd early and kinda crude) and the first gear lockout tube which i believe is what their first patent was awarded for...... Anybody got any more info on B&M's hydro gooodies???
Yes, that valve you are holding is the first gear locker that the Spar Bros. invented. Since Dusal Range Hydramatics didn't have torque converters, GM designed a very low first gear and no provison to hold it there so the tranny automatically shifts to second @ ~10-15mph. This was the factory's answer to a torque converter. Modified B&M Hydros came with that valve but racers rarely if ever used it. On a strip launch, the need to 1-2 shift came up so quickly that racers started out in second letting the 1-2 be their 'torque converter' as GM designed it. Thus the thing that put B&M on the map had little use in drag racing, lending itself more to off road mud driving!

Incidentally, your valve is missing the plunger. I'll post a picture or two of how the thing goes in the tranny.
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Old 11-30-2006, 12:00 PM   #62
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

well I've put this out several times but since this post is hanging well I'll try again.
looking for a Hemi to Hydro adapter. at this point I don't really care how reasonable it is
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:37 PM   #63
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

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Originally Posted by NONAME
well I've put this out several times but since this post is hanging well I'll try again.
looking for a Hemi to Hydro adapter. at this point I don't really care how reasonable it is
I have a hemi-to-hydro flywheel for $300 plus shipping, but no adapter-- sorry.
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Old 11-30-2006, 05:43 PM   #64
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

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Originally Posted by Blownolds
THAT is a very, very RARE tranny core. Do NOT take it apart until you know how to put one back together again. A military collector hinted to me that the tranny core should be worth really big money to a collector that needs one. This was from a guy that operates a military machine museum...

I only know of one other in the hands of another hydro guy I know. He took it apart and knows all the little differences... but I can't get any info out of him, I don't think. I suspect you'll find brass clutch plates in addition to the cooler, but I would be VERY, VERY interested to know what you actually find! But please take special care in how you disassemble it!!

Do you have other stock hydro's that you can take apart and compare each component to side-by-side? (not that there aren't lots of differences in the different passenger car hydro's)

Pics?

I also have lots of tranny cores and crates full of loose hydro parts. I would love to take part in an info-sharing session, but it will sadly have to wait for a while. I'm pursuing a career change with my wife and all my stuff is packed away in storage at this time.
i will surely be carefull when i dissasemble it. ive got a feeling that its most likely not much differnt inside than any other early cad single range of that era. but curiousoty is killin me sorry im a little slow on this one but the day after i got it i had to go to costa rica which is where i am now on the hotel comp. The other assembled hydro,s i have are chevy truck thats built and ready to go racin and 2 - 55 cad units and lots of internals left over from my dads hydro days of building them for strip cars bands and dual range valve bodies make up most of it though. its funny what you said about gettin info from old hydro guys ive had the same experence in that they dont even wanna talk about em and cant understand why i have any interest in them. On the tank hydro another thing i noticed is that it has a short tailhousing with a mount on the bottom just like my 55 cad units but its a short tail like most hydros and not 2 ft long like later cad.I suspect its just stock early cad but i dont know. Like you said there is alot to know about hydros. You mentioned brass clutch plates you mean like with no friction matt. bonded to them? Have you ever heard of hydro clutches like this? damn now you have my really really curious.
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Old 11-30-2006, 06:26 PM   #65
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by willys36
Yes, that valve you are holding is the first gear locker that the Spar Bros. invented. Since Dusal Range Hydramatics didn't have torque converters, GM designed a very low first gear and no provison to hold it there so the tranny automatically shifts to second @ ~10-15mph. This was the factory's answer to a torque converter. Modified B&M Hydros came with that valve but racers rarely if ever used it. On a strip launch, the need to 1-2 shift came up so quickly that racers started out in second letting the 1-2 be their 'torque converter' as GM designed it. Thus the thing that put B&M on the map had little use in drag racing, lending itself more to off road mud driving!

Incidentally, your valve is missing the plunger. I'll post a picture or two of how the thing goes in the tranny.
what ive come to learn about this perticular mod. is the best mod is to do is not modify the stock tube but instead machine the governor WAY down so your 1-2 shift comes in at around 6000 or so depending on how much you cut off. cause like you said there is other things for the driver to be doing 10 ft out of the hole than trying to shift to second because first is ridicoulsly low. Also i have a valve assy thats in a tranny i have its just not a cool lookin b & M one so i didnt post a pic of it . my thought on the first gear reason was more that these tranny's came in very heavy cars that were relitively under powered. If you look at the different ratios of the differnt cars you will notice that there all different and that comerical service vehicles and cadillac had the lowest first gear ratios. Its the job of the torus assy. to provide the function of the engine to continue running while the car is not moving while in gear . which is why it only has the duty idleing in gear and the 1-2 shift and is not in use after that. The 2-3 and 3-4 shifts are direct and do not use the torus. which also is why these trannys last and dont burn up there is nothing making HEAT most of the time. the spend very little of their life using the torus assy. I would like to see b&m's valve if you have a pic of it. Thanks
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Old 11-30-2006, 06:34 PM   #66
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Question Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

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Originally Posted by backyardbeliever
Its the job of the torus assy. to provide the function of the engine to continue running while the car is not moving while in gear . which is why it only has the duty idleing in gear and the 1-2 shift and is not in use after that. The 2-3 and 3-4 shifts are direct and do not use the torus.
so if you were to cut down the vanes on the torus to raise the stall speed it wouldn't affect the normal driving?
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Old 11-30-2006, 09:30 PM   #67
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

I used a half dollar piece marked them about 3/4 inch from the center to get 3000-3500 stall,
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:37 PM   #68
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by backyardbeliever
what ive come to learn about this perticular mod. is the best mod is to do is not modify the stock tube but instead machine the governor WAY down so your 1-2 shift comes in at around 6000 or so depending on how much you cut off. cause like you said there is other things for the driver to be doing 10 ft out of the hole than trying to shift to second because first is ridicoulsly low. Also i have a valve assy thats in a tranny i have its just not a cool lookin b & M one so i didnt post a pic of it . my thought on the first gear reason was more that these tranny's came in very heavy cars that were relitively under powered. If you look at the different ratios of the differnt cars you will notice that there all different and that comerical service vehicles and cadillac had the lowest first gear ratios. Its the job of the torus assy. to provide the function of the engine to continue running while the car is not moving while in gear . which is why it only has the duty idleing in gear and the 1-2 shift and is not in use after that. The 2-3 and 3-4 shifts are direct and do not use the torus. which also is why these trannys last and dont burn up there is nothing making HEAT most of the time. the spend very little of their life using the torus assy. I would like to see b&m's valve if you have a pic of it. Thanks
Here is B&M's valve installed. When I first modified my tranny I didn't have a B&M valve so I made one out of aluminum bar stock and a piece of steel rod. Works great. Regardless, really is no reason for it in a drag car. Starting out in 2nd, allowing an auto 1-2 shift then manually shifting the rest works pefectly.



Also, here are a couple photos of the military version. Quite a bit different from the auto one. Has a cast iron bottom pan, different dip stick boss cast into the body. These things were used in military tanks during WWII so a little service behind a blown 400' engine is no sweat!
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:33 PM   #69
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

Wow, never saw a pic of a military unit-- thanks!

As for what I mentioned about brass clutches, I mean solid brass or brass-alloy clutch discs. I understand this is what were in tank trannies, as well as what the Dynaflow clutches were supposed to be.

I also understand that while they are good for high-heat, the brass shavings that wear off tend to clog up the valve body. Just what I've heard. I plan on having a small production run of Red Alto kevlar clutches done when I'm ready for them. But that sort of small production run type of thing is NOT CHEAP and I'm a long ways from needing them yet. Too many other areas of my project to concentrate on.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:32 PM   #70
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

i am running a hydro in my 31 roadster. just scored a pile of n.o.s. hydro parts from a pontiac dealer. nice catalog. cadillac dave
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:58 PM   #71
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

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Originally Posted by yorgatron
so if you were to cut down the vanes on the torus to raise the stall speed it wouldn't affect the normal driving?
I wouldn't say that. Just raising the stall speed affects normal driving! But besides that, I understand that the higher the stall, the more slippage at high RPM. Or maybe that should be rephrased to more horspeower being lost by the two torus halves not transferring it all. Remember that the drive torus moves the driven torus by basically fanning past it and the fluid getting pushed by the vanes. Cut the vanes down and they can't move the fluid as well. This is why the stall speed goes up before the car starts to move. You gotta rev the engine (and subsequently the flywheel, torus bowl, and the drive torus) higher to get the driven torus to start to move. At least that's my take on it, and my understanding. It just makes sense to me that the efficiency of the torus assembly goes down when you start shaving the vanes back for higher stall.

That being said, it should be noted that there are differences in the toruses from model to model and year to year. I have seen several different ones. I plan on starting out with the small 10-1/2" diametewr Chevy truck torus in un-modified form, and then only making modifications to the vanes if necessary.
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Old 12-01-2006, 10:17 PM   #72
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

You are correct, cutting the vanes raises stall speed but also decreases mechanical efficiency across the RPM range. Less fuel efficiency and more heat generation is the result. Hydros are super sensitive to vane cutting and as B&M stressed in their 60s sales literature, get the tori configured EXACTLY for the type of driving you plan to do. Cutting too much or too little for your application is disasterous. My recommendation for the street is get the 10 1/2" 'Chevy' torus and use it in the big Olds/Caddy torus cover instead of the larger big-car tori. Since torque generation is a function of torus diameter to the 5th power, the smaller Chevy unit will increase the stall speed w/o loss of efficiency at speed.
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Old 12-02-2006, 01:51 PM   #73
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

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My recommendation for the street is get the 10 1/2" 'Chevy' torus and use it in the big Olds/Caddy torus cover instead of the larger big-car tori.
For folks using a Chevy engine, I think I'd recommend using the smaller-diameter 18-bolt Chevy torus bowl as well. I don't believe you can attach a large 30-bolt Olds/Cad/Pontiac torus bowl to a Chevy hydro flywheel. Unless you know different.
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Old 12-05-2006, 11:48 PM   #74
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

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For folks using a Chevy engine, I think I'd recommend using the smaller-diameter 18-bolt Chevy torus bowl as well. I don't believe you can attach a large 30-bolt Olds/Cad/Pontiac torus bowl to a Chevy hydro flywheel. Unless you know different.
That's correct. Sorry, I am always thinking hemi!
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Old 12-07-2006, 06:32 PM   #75
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

I just got this unit behind my Lincoln 368 and I don't know a thing about them. I'm hoping this post goes forever...
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:57 PM   #76
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Default Re: B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

great bit of info here,

Rocketeers

put together by the HAMB's own Peter Lombardi
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:05 PM   #77
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Default Re: TRANSMISSION, B&M Hydro stick installation instructions

scans lifted from http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=717614

posted by DualQuad55





















Last edited by Paul; 07-19-2012 at 10:10 PM.
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