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History Auto racing 1894-1942

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kurtis, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    Gary Doyle goes into great Detail in the King of the Boards book on the Weightman saga and a bit on the entourage.

    Jimmy Murphy started out on the Weightman team,if I`m not mistaken.
     
  2. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Sorry i strayed a little off topic with the Duesy pic.
    This is from the Tuscon race.


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    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  3. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Kurtis thanks for the great Duesenberg photo.

    The first photo is Henderson after he was out of the spring Sheepshead Bay race w/a burnt piston.

    The second photo shows the new DOHC 16? valve for 1916.
     

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  4. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Interesting. I don't know this story. I have read a newspaper article of a city to city race where Harroun supplied the carburetors for the Henderson cars but these were dual purpose, meaning gas and kero.
    I'd like some more info.

    ...and some more info on this story.
     
  5. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    Great photo-I like the tools all laid out on the pitwall made of boards,and the old fashioned fuel cans,along with the car and driver,of course.


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  6. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,315

    ehdubya
    Member

    The original 100 mph man Louis Rigolly, 103.561*mph Ostend i 21 July 1904 13.5 litre Gobron-Brille

    Thanks all for this wonderful thread!
     

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  7. Rapid Robert
    Joined: Nov 7, 2009
    Posts: 61

    Rapid Robert
    Member

    noboD, kurtis, others -
    I too would like to get my hands on some clear photos of the carb set-up on the 1914 Kerosene Maxwells. Being the artist type, I don't delve too deep into the engineering aspects of it. I do have some info on the cars from various sources that I think is mostly accurate:

    445 cid, conventional T-head layout only the exhaust manifolds on the kerosene cars doubled back, piercing the block between the two middle cylinders and exiting out the other side to a long sweeping exhaust pipe. The carb and intake manifold was, somehow, a part of this.

    The engines were flywheel-less, using counter balance weights on the crankshafts. The engines also made extensive use of ball bearings. They were touted as being almost vibration free. I also have a reference to some sort of different or unconventional oil delivery system.

    I'm hoping that some of the staggering knowledge that resides on this thread can add to this information or correct it if need be. I have also wondered if these 1914 Maxwell racers had a factory build designation or model number or something. My interest in these cars and the men who drove them comes from the Utah connection and racing on the salt.
    Bob.
     
  8. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,290

    jimdillon
    Member

    Whomever wrote the speed of 156mph may have had some wishful thinking but I am not sure it is correct, even in some of the practice runs. DePalma had been making a number of runs on the beach for days practicing but early on the timing equipment was not present and when it arrived they had a few problems with it. Some may have used their own timing devices and came up with that figure.

    What is interesting about his runs is that during some of his practice runs there were people on the beach with their own cars on the course, so he had to drive through them. Gary Doyle has some great photos in his book on DePalma. The one thing that I was really thankful for was that Gary corrected history by relating that DePalma went both ways to try and placate the European practice. There was a certain amount of acrimony between the two American sanctioning bodies (AAA and ACA) and then there was the AIACR (the European body that certified world speed records. I have read in books both domestic and foreign that DePalma's record was an American record due to the fact he only ran one way. The local papers in Daytona and the Chicago Tribune got it correct that he in fact ran both ways although there are some errors in what the return run time was. The first run was 149.8751 and the return run was reported to be 147.7. The LA Times later reported the average for both runs was 149.72 (that time may be a tick high). I spoke to Gary about this and it is sad there was no real effort made to straighten this out in 1919.

    The sad part is due to the acrimony between the governing bodies (in this instance mainly the American bodies-although truth be told no one can convince me that the AIACR was not monitoring these runs closely and should have noted it to upstage the American dufusses at AAA and ACA) denied DePalma the international record he probably deserved and to this day the record is recognized as only an American record.

    Long story short 156 is probably too high. His one way record was 149.8 and two way record was probably 148.7.Jim
     
  9. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    The first photo is the Maxwell built for the 1906 Vanderbilt but it did not run in it.

    The second is a near stock 30HP #1 of C.O. King at Oakland Calif. in 1908. Biggest car in the line up we can see is the Pope the forth back.

    I have more Maxwell photos to post later.
     

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  10. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    First photo Carlson at Indy w/the Kero car.

    Second & third photos Huges and Carlson at Tacoma in July of 1914.

    Forth photo Tatzaff at Elgin 1914

    Fifth photo Oldfield at Point Loma Jan. 1915
     

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  11. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,315

    ehdubya
    Member

    Have you seen this patent Bob.
    There was a guy here played around with this about the same time and sold the patent to the US army during the war.
     
  12. fur biscuit
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 7,828

    fur biscuit
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The Cutting today:



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  13. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    First photo, Oldfield at Venice Calif. in 1915 where he won.

    Second photo, Carlson at indy in 1915 finished 9th and only stopped once.

    Third photo, Rickenbacker at Indy in 1916 Qualified 2nd but DNF in the race.

    Forth photo, Henderson at Indy finished 6th in 1916.
     

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  14. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    One more Hudson photo with only a reference to being in California. It looks like he was visting Hudson dealers as there is a Super Six sign on the window. If I remember correctly Mulford drove for Hudson and it looks like him with that smile.
     

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  15. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    T-Head,

    A.H. Patterson is the only Hudson driver I can find that drove #17. I have no idea what he looked like.

    Mulford was stockier than the driver in your photo,I think.

    There is an unreadable autograph but I can make out `17 - 1917.

    http://www.champcarstats.com/drivers/PattersonAH.htm
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  16. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,582

    The37Kid
    Member

    I've always thought the HUDSON Ira Vail drove at INDY in 1919 was a new car that year, now with all the posts I'm not sure. The three matching team cars photographed in 1917 look like the 1919 car, when were they all built? I know from the paperwork I have on the Vail car that thay carried special factory serial numbers.
     
  17. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Photo of another National Race car #3 crashed into a wooden pole during a contest between the Rocky Mountain News and The Denver Times newspapers.
     

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  18. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,290

    jimdillon
    Member

    Buildy may be right as that is not Mulford. As to Vail's Hudson I thought it was one of the 1917 cars but I have not dug too deep on that.

    As to the Maxwells it is a shame that the war interrupted their progress and fate. They appeared to be pretty well designed and should have done pretty well if given a complete chance I suppose.

    There were a number of articles on the cars. The pictures of them in white with Rickenbacker and Henderson were the 1916 cars. For 1916 they changed the tail to cut wind resistance and placed one gas tank in the tail (pressure) and another auxiliary tank under the cowl (gravity). Many of the racers carried oil tanks under the cowl but Maxwell had a sump system fed from a tank carried in the chassis.

    The difference in the engines from 1915 was that they increased the intake valve diameter from 1.75" to 2". They increased valve lift 1/8". The 4 cylinder was a block design with detachable heads and carried a bore and stroke of 3 3/4 x 6 3/4 for 298.2 c.i. They cleaned up the intake and made it more efficient and no longer carried the air horn on the carburetor outside the hood (now contained within). The connecting rods were i-beam and they used magnalium pistons with 5 rings.

    The unique feature they were proud of was their crankshaft. They counterbalanced the crank to eliminate the flywheel function. Instead of the flywheel they distributed the flywheel function along the entire length of the crankshaft. The counterbalanced weight was opposite each rod bearing (equal to the weight of the lower part of the rod and its bearing) and according to them "the active forces are balanced with respect to the center of gravity and the centers of masses revolve in the same or parallel planes and thus... less vibration".

    Pretty cool cars. If you look in the pics you can see the bullet shaped oil tank under the frame with the oil fill cap-Jim
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    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  19. ehdubya
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,315

    ehdubya
    Member

    Did someone say Hudson super six?
     

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  20. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    Ira Vail. - HUDSON. 1916 Vanderbilt Cup??

    [​IMG]
     
  21. jimdillon
    Joined: Dec 6, 2005
    Posts: 3,290

    jimdillon
    Member

    Kurtis, I think you may be right on that -nice pic-Jim
     
  22. yonahrr
    Joined: Feb 27, 2010
    Posts: 1,348

    yonahrr
    Member

    KURTIS said "I don't know if was coincidental or not but the recent post showing the Chitty car of Zborowski, the Marmon Wasp and the Bordino FIAT S74 came just at the beginning of a discussion regarding the age old argument of recreations and over restorations. I personally don't have a problem with either."

    As long as the recreations are stated as such no one should have any problems with them in my opinion. Like the machine below. If you believe that's real, let me sell you some swamp land. These "manufactured" classics pay homage to a time of heroic men and machines. It's all just fun. Does anyone know of someone actually passing off a fake as the real thing and getting away with it?
    Jerry
     

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  23. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,582

    The37Kid
    Member

    Jerry, I missed the Bordino FIAT post, please get me up to speed on that car.
     
  24. twin6
    Joined: Feb 12, 2010
    Posts: 2,237

    twin6
    Member
    from Vermont

    I hope I'm not too late with this Hudson. I know nothing about the car or occupants, but imagine someone following this thread will. Thanks Kurtis for kicking this off, and thanks everyone for a great educational and fun thread. Please keep up the great work!
     

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    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  25. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    Never too late,the more of these vintage photos,the better it is,I say.
     
  26. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    This is an Apperson factory photo from 1907 of their racing car of the time. I have seen another photo of this car in a book that I have and they sure gave this a distinctive name, they called it the "Big Dick". It was also a car that lived up to its name after winning a race at Savannah.

    I did find this article about a race two years later in the NY Times dated July 11, 09.

    I also did a search after posting this and came up with the following paragraph (third photo) in book called Haynes-Apperson and Americas first practical automobile. Edgar was Edgar Apperson.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  27. T-Head
    Joined: Jan 28, 2010
    Posts: 3,967

    T-Head
    Member
    from Paradise.

    Buildy....... You were wondering the other day if they had auto racing in York Penn., maybe this is a clue that they had races at the fair?
     

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  28. Buildy
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 1,521

    Buildy
    Member

    Thanks T-Head!

    That is a really nice item.

    I know they did race there on the Horse track. I do need to do more research to get the details.

    I did have some photos of them racing on the Horse track c 1915 but I can`t locate them as of yet. Grrrr.

    I need to get over to the York Library to read the old newspapers,and contact the York County Historical society and see if they have anything.

    I would love to know if Oldfield ever barnstormed here,too.
     
  29. fur biscuit
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 7,828

    fur biscuit
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Of course, the list is as long as my...well, that picture is a better example of someone trying to sell a turd for gold. a quarter of a mil for that visual train wreck. oofta.

    If you really pass one off, no one knows except you. and if anyone else knows, then you didn't pass it off very well.
     
  30. kurtis
    Joined: Mar 13, 2009
    Posts: 2,001

    kurtis
    Member
    from Australia

    I found an article describing all of the cars in attendance at the Madison Square Garden Show of 1907. The Apperson Touring model cost $4300 while a semi race car called the "Jack Rabbit" could be bought for $5000. Not a bad buy considering some sportsmen were importing foreign makes for alot more and many were having trouble beating the Apperson, namely at the Hillclimb contests.

    The following photos are from the Library of Congress.

    The first three are of Herb Lytle with mechanician J. Bates from the Cobe Cup.

    The fourth is of Nelson McClean at the Algonquin Hillclimb.

    The last two are Edgar Apperson also at Algonquin and together with his brother Elmer.
     

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