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Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 38FLATTIE, Feb 3, 2012.

  1. I did some math and thinking on this while in the waiting room.
    I used a 350 cubic inch @ 10,000 Rpms & 1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot ( cfm) & 2 revs per full 350 ci displacement & one minutes time. 14psi or twice atmosphere.

    (350*10,000)/2 = 1.75 million cubic inches per min. NA
    1,750,000/ 1728 = 1012 CFM NA
    1012 *2 = 2024 cfm @ 14 psi boost.

    This unit : only $400.00 each & no moving parts. Some of these are adjustable to fine tune the output.

    http://www.vortexproducts.biz/Conve...ransvectors/uvortex_round_transvectors_2.html

    Has a 3" throat, consumes 71 cfm @ 100 psi and delivers 1420 cfm.
    A pair of those units would consume 142 CFM ( size of 4' tall x 7" gas bottle at 2200 psi) and deliver 2840 CFM or just over you CFM requirement at 14psi boost. just multiply that by how many minutes you'll be at WOT for 3 miles. Them scuba tanks hold more cubic feet so that may work much better.

    your running a flathead so this won't be the same type manifold but You could set a pair up on a manifold like this with fuel Injectors and have at it.

    Thought experiment because I don't know if those will build boost pressure.

    . [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  2. Clik
    Joined: Jul 1, 2009
    Posts: 1,965

    Clik
    Member

    Exhaust expansion chambers (at theoretic maximum) would only allow cyclinder pressure to be whatever the atmospheric pressure is. In other words: No compressed air. Right?

    Venturis work by Un compressing air. Right?
     
  3. revkev6
    Joined: Jun 13, 2006
    Posts: 3,352

    revkev6
    Member
    from ma

    I don't know if anyone had mentioned it but somebody ran a tank of pure oxygen on a 27 roadster in the late 40's early 50's on the lakes. there was a picture of the engine after it backfired during the run and literally turned into a torch on top of the engine. scary stuff man!
     
  4. My dad bought two railroad "self-portable" air compressor tractors when I was a kid. They had a 4 cyl. power unit with a separate headed 2 cyl. air compressor. Same crankshaft. Same cooling system. Two cyl heads with different jobs. The compressor part of the engine had much larger pistons.
    So do you build an 8 that has compression from 2, and make a crank that can deal with both, valve the air compessor two cylinders to deliver on every stroke?
    Has that been done? I also don't think that all cylinders being of equal displacement can have enough enhancement from 2 of the 8 to make a difference because I think the parasitic drag would be similar to a belt driven supercharger at the expense of having fun to learn while doing it and all the rest of the money involved.
    Just thoughts.
     
  5. boby
    Joined: Jan 25, 2012
    Posts: 12

    boby
    Member

    I was about to say the same thing. The timing would definitely be hard to get the timing down but it could be done and like toddc said you would definitely have a good argument of why you should be able to run in the gas class. I would love to witness the conversation of someone trying to disprove the mixture as air. This thread is making me want to get back to work on my water-powered car.
     
  6. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 2,513

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, 31V;

    I don't know of any vortex generators, air curtains, air amp. or venturi air horn, or similar, that will develop pressure. AFAIK, it's all about volume at atmospheric, or less. If I'm not mistaken, the larger the delta (difference 'twixt in & out), the better it'll work. As I'm defining it here: the more air (in cfm, or lbs, or however you want to measure it) it will flow {output}, for a given amount of air used {input}(at a correct working pressure).

    Which is why this device will have to be used at the inlet of a carb(s), injector(s), supercharger(s). I think the only advantage would be, the ability to gulp abnormal amounts of air. There should be some cooling effect, but take into consideration the ratio of compressed air to atmos. Still, getting lots extra air, + any cooling, compared to normal, esp at Bville, would allow the supercharger to build boost - lots of it - very early. & probably more than it would otherwise.

    If you know different, please educate me. Seriously.

    Another possible use for this, that I just considered - & it's late, so no promise of clear thinking :D - would be to utilize this, or these, facing rearward, to break-up the turbulence behind the car. Not sure if you could carry enough to really be effective, but using it in a "spot" situation(s) might work to (partially) defeat troublesome low pressure area(s) that are hard to eliminate otherwise.

    Jim Hall had the best idea, but probably outlawed 'bout near everywhere.
    Oldsmobile w/their 'liner & the Arriva bros - same deal.

    Marcus...
     
  7. I'm thinking out loud here, in thought experiments. For these couple things there would be no compressed air utilized although it could be in unison. But an exhaust expansion chamber does provide a low pressure condition, that should or could evacuate the cylinders better and earlier. To take advantage of that phenomenon the cam's valve timing would have to be changed.

    A venturi does a lot of things. Depends on how you look at it to get it to do what you want. increases flow velocity and reduces pressure at the choke is a by product. (conservation of energy & conservation of mass) That reduction in pressure creates a vacuume at the choke. One could theoretically used that to increase exhaust flow rate and use that vacuume to better evacuate the cylinders and draw in more of a fresh charge earlier.

    But the cam's Valve timing will need to take advantage of that. I doubt the gains would be huge because a lot of that "science" is already being used, just not on an optimal level.
     
  8. My first hand experience with this is with the Venturi air horns or air movers. Works on the same scientific principals as the air amplifiers know as "the coanda effect" or a variation of it. That's only been in free air with large units. In some situations there's debris in those environments, if that debris gets in the sucking end it comes out the other like it was shot out of a cannon. If the debris is large enough to block the opening the suction is still there but weak. As soon as you try to move the obstruction and get some free air in the suction rapidly increases to a point of no hope getting it loose.

    I've never tried to develop pressure on the other or exiting end of a venturi air mover.

    Those air amplifiers linked above are only a few hundred bucks for the larger 3" and less for the smaller ones. Wouldn't take much to test one on the pressure side.
     
  9. Roger Walling
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,149

    Roger Walling
    Member

    OK, now if you want to combine the leaf blowers with a large bottle off oxygen...
     
  10. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Actually I have a Venturi Air horn off a over water 747 life raft. It used high velocity gasses from a black powder explosion to draw in outside air and inflate the raft. If you get out here you can look at it and see what you think. If nothing else it looks cool. Sure to cause much hate and discontent.
     
  11. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Fuzzy pictures of 747 part
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Blackpowder!!!!!!!! Now you're talking Rich! Should we try FF or FFF? ;)
     
  13. Jimmy2car
    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 1,707

    Jimmy2car
    Member
    from No. Cal

    OK, here's your answer. Go to your local WW2 Submarine junkyard and get 3 or 4 of the air tanks used to blow the ballast tanks on a sub. Heavy? Yes, but we all know weight is of no consequence for Bonneville. They're big and have a HUGE pressure rating. There. Fixed it for ya
     
  14. Roger Walling
    Joined: Sep 26, 2010
    Posts: 1,149

    Roger Walling
    Member

    Actually, Black power was tried on the show Myth Busters. The problem was the valves woulden't close fast enough to prevent an explosion in the fuel supply.
     
  15. mrconcdid
    Joined: Aug 31, 2010
    Posts: 1,156

    mrconcdid
    Member
    from Florida

    I had to look it up, Detroit did have a turbo and supercharger set up on there diesel engine. heres a link of it.

    Its not exactly what you were looking for but it is different.
    MrC.

    Detroit Diesel 8VF turbo and supercharged HD 1080
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG3DV8CTesI





    or you could get one of these instead
    The Flux Capacitor!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  16. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    There were a gazillion buses running around with turbo charged Detroit 8/92 and such engines in them. All the two strokes have the Blower, except on the Detroit/GMC diesel it's not a blower the same as on a top fuel car.It's just an air pump supplying intake air to the two stroke on it's combined intake/exhaust stroke. And we are not talking about black powder as a fuel. In the raft it was a gas generator for the nozzles in the venturi that sucked in ambient air to inflate the raft.
     
  17. zenndog
    Joined: Feb 16, 2008
    Posts: 162

    zenndog
    Member
    from Santa Cruz

    This is a fun thread.

    If I am not mistaken, compressed air would also be very cold and thus very dense as well, no? Kind of like an automatic intercooler.

    I believe that there was a French Company making a small car that ran off compressed air. They used Kevlar pressure tanks so that in the case of a puncture, they would not explode, just decompress rapidly.

    http://www.gizmag.com/go/3523/
     
  18. So where do we put the ramrod?:D
     
  19. nfleone
    Joined: Nov 14, 2011
    Posts: 46

    nfleone
    Member

    It ran 64 or 65 mph. The push truck almost passed it.
    The tanks were about 16+ inches in diameter and about 36+ inches long.
    More pictures
    [​IMG]
     
  20. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,715

    carbking
    Member

    I have zero experience with the bleeding of compressed air into the engine, but I believe the variable temperature drop associated with the depressurizing of the tanks would be much more of a problem than carrying enough tanks.

    Not saying it cannot be done, but I certainly would not wish to be the individual responsible for tuning the fuel system.

    Good luck with your project. Post some pictures if you get that far.

    Jon.
     
  21. Dyce
    Joined: Sep 12, 2006
    Posts: 1,973

    Dyce
    Member

    You would really blow some minds if you could make the engine a 2 stroke and run a preasurize the crankcase.
     
  22. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,476

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    A screw charger consumes 1/2 the HP as a roots type but has to really be overdriven.
    or how about the ultimate Roots style fast fowardto 2.20 http://youtu.be/v0qeYd5gcnQ
     
  23. Pintojoe80
    Joined: Jan 5, 2012
    Posts: 19

    Pintojoe80
    Member

    I am no expert at this and my answer may end up being off topic but here are my thoughts. On a supercharged engine all of the area down stream of the supercharger is sealed, to run on compressed air my thoughts are that the regulator to the cylinders must be sealed to take advantage of the pressure from the tank. I think the expansion of the gas as the pressure is reduced will reduce the total amount of gas needed to make this operation viable. The problem will be with the regulators supplying enough gas to keep up with the demad from the engine. If welding gas is used it is nearly 100% oxygen. I think the easiet way to control fuel mixture would be to go with fuel injection using an oxygen sensor.
     
  24. desotot
    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 2,036

    desotot
    Member

    stick a couple of politicians in the trunk, hook some hoses to their mouths, should produce all the hot air you need. I think..
     
  25. Clik
    Joined: Jul 1, 2009
    Posts: 1,965

    Clik
    Member

    You might want to research WWII era airplanes where all these questions and experiments have been done with never ending tax payer budgets. They had to deal with high altitude thin air and high horsepower requirements. They too were looking for short bursts of high power to avoid Jap Zeros.
     
  26. ShortBus
    Joined: Dec 31, 1969
    Posts: 916

    ShortBus
    Member

    What if you..
    [​IMG]
     
  27. fossilfish
    Joined: Dec 16, 2010
    Posts: 320

    fossilfish
    Member
    from Texas

    Back in the early days of drag racing this was tried. Guys with rails running with long bottles in front of the engine. It worked right up to the point of a crash with potential bombs on the front of the car. As I recall reading they were in fact banned after a couple of stupid crashes and the resulting problems occuring. It is all fun and games till someone pokes an eye out.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
  28. fenderless
    Joined: Mar 31, 2006
    Posts: 1,286

    fenderless
    Member
    from Norway

  29. Cutlassboy68
    Joined: Dec 3, 2011
    Posts: 593

    Cutlassboy68
    BANNED
    from Boone, Nc


    So if compressed what size ould that fit into?
    And if your going to go that route why not go with pure 02 it supports combustion much beter than air which is like 20%?.. And for space limitations liquid 02 is much more compressed, cant find the math to convert everything but sounds feasable, difficult and expensive, but possible...
    How long does a typical run last? Only wot time not warm up since you would have this system off for that time period...
    MY 14 month old is running with a pot and spoon... Gotta go...

    And remember those drag cars only ran for 7 seconds or less...
     
  30. Cutlassboy68
    Joined: Dec 3, 2011
    Posts: 593

    Cutlassboy68
    BANNED
    from Boone, Nc

    17463.77 cubic gallons divided by 7.48051948 and you have 2334.5663134 cubic feet...
    Back to pot kid...
     

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