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Ok, So It's Stupid-Now Tell Me WHY It Won't Work! Supercharged Question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 38FLATTIE, Feb 3, 2012.

  1. Jalopy Journalist
    Joined: Nov 4, 2011
    Posts: 255

    Jalopy Journalist
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    I like people like you, we get it. Sure some of the stuff we say is just thinking out loud, and it doesn't mean that we are going to do it today, but hopefully, one day...

    So have you thought about a gas powered air compressor, you wouldn't need as large of a tank, you could keep the psi high enough that you could use it and it wouldn't create strain on your drive train at all.

    4x4 guys do this so they can pump their tires after treckin' around, but those really are nothing more than glorified airbag pumps, but if you could find a modern air compressing engine you could pull it off more easily than MASSIVE tanks of air.
     
  2. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    I will check with them, after I decide on a firm course of action, that I believe will work.

    Even if I'm not allowed to run in a class, I might think about running time only, just to see the HP gains. The French liner proved they will allow the bottles, if mounted properly.

    Yes, this is definitely an option!

    Thanks for the info!

    When I mentioned using the frame, I didn't mean the stock frame. I still think utilizing the frame is a good storage idea. I mean to make a specialized frame, constructed and certified for this porpose. The Art Malone drag car did this, or so I'm told.

    Electric, roots, centrifugal-they all have a parasitic loss-goes back to "you can't get something for nothing."

    No, they don't have to be GMC style-they can be any style.

    Haha! I'm glad there are other 'crazies' out there!

    An gas powered air compressor would work, and so would a seperate engine to run the supercharger.

    That's not what I'm looking to accomplish, though- I'm looking at an alternative way to supercharge the car, and get more HP from the engine, with the same amount of boost.

    I realize not everyone understands why I possibly would want to go this route. That's OK, because I don't understand the 'cookie cutter' mentality, either!
     
  3. turdytoo
    Joined: May 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,568

    turdytoo
    Member

    I know this isn't what your after,but, Anyone else remember a Willys with a Chrysler hemi in HRM (way back when)? It had an engine in the back powering the blower that fed what looked like sewer pipe to the front mounted motor.
     
  4. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 2,513

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, 38Flattie & nexxussian;

    The air amplifier is the same principle as the vortex generator, as does the air curtain (may be the same thing as an air amplifier). & that is what I was thinking of in the 1st place. Although, one of the neat things w/a vortex generator is, you can get either hot *or* cold out of it, depending on which way it's set up. The air vortex gen needs ~ 125psi to work well, the air amps, I don't remember.

    The idea of the air amplifier is, the ability to get many multiples of air out of it, compared to what is input into it. It isn't supercharging, but from the engines' point of view, the extra air tries to fill the void that the vacuum creates. So instead of X" of vacuum, it tries to get to 0" (normal atmospheric pressure). So you use this thing at the inlet, & since the inlet can never get to 0 while the engine is running... :D . In N/A form, the engine will respond quicker, as if supercharging is applied, at least up to 0" manifold pressure. Engines w/turbos will respond much quicker, as they will w/superchargers, since the 'charger doesn't have to work as hard to get a given volume of air to gulp.

    38, I know you took off the front fenders for aero, but the big pontoons (F&R) could hide some Scuba tanks. You'd need a lot of fairly large dia (WAG: up to 1 1/2" ?) plumbing, & I think the new name for the car might be Medusa or Plumbers' Nightmare. :) . Or maybe Bottle Baby, w/appropriate sexy WWII-type graphics on the doors, or trunk... :D .

    I still think you're going to have serious trouble w/a frame doubling as an air tank. For extremely low pressure (just enough to have pressure to see if there are cracks starting - what, maybe 10psi?), maybe, but I wouldn't want to be around it. Considering you have to weld on it - well - there's a lot of ways to get hurt/maimed &/or die. This is easily avoidable, - for me. I've also heard of the idea to use the rollcage as a tank, but it's too small, volume-wise, & again, the welded thing. I know tanks have the end cap(s) welded, but they don't have to support anything, nor are they subjected to active structural stresses & vibration. I'd pilot your car w/the tanks strapped next to me, in the trunk, the doors, etc., but wouldn't get anywhere near it, if I knew the frame was a hi-pressure container. Not to be rude or throw water on your idea. If you can find out how to make this work, I'm ready to be convinced. :D .

    Looks like it's time to move the fuel cell. :) .

    Still want to see this work.

    BTW: I can see this bumping you into the "fuel" class,*if* even allowed @ Bville.

    However, maybe at the Ohio (or wherever the new venue is) runway. & it's what, ~ 1 mile? So less air needed. (X-Maxton). :D :D :D.

    Marcus...
     
  5. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,484

    tjm73
    Member

    Cylinder volume is (B/2)^2 x pi x S, or B x B x PI/4 x S. You can get total displacement by then multiplying by the number of cylinders with either formula.
     
  6. Triggerman
    Joined: Nov 18, 2006
    Posts: 578

    Triggerman
    Member
    from NorCal

    38FLATTIE, as if you don't have enough to think about...how about this? Suppose carrying enough "air" is prohibitive to make a 3 mile run. However, atmospheric air contains only about 21 % oxygen. Soooo, what would happen if you were able to mix pure compressed oxygen with atmospheric air. It seems that the effect would be very similar to nitrous oxide. Just more food for thought Mr 38.
     
  7. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Entropy is a harsh mistress.
     
  8. Check out a "venturi air horn" on Google. They are air powered and discharge about 20 times what they consume with no moving parts. They are used to vent explosive hazard from confined spaces or to vent cooling air into extremely hot ( refractory) environment.
    These things move free air, not into a pressurized condition under normal conditions - so it might not work but there's some technology here that moves 20 times as much air.

    http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/equipment.aspx?itemid=0360530&catid=s239

    It's basically a cast ring with a 1" air inlet fitting attached to a large funnel or horn. It's open on both ends. Bigger they are the more they use and more they move but I don't know if the 20 factor changes. Biggest one I saw was 14" and that thing would blow you right over.


    BTW, top fueler only turns 950 revs under load with a burnout and a full run not counting idle time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2012
  9. I don't know if you can play with different types of fuel , but "nitro-propane" is a carrier of extra oxygen. Not cheap.
     
  10. nexxussian
    Joined: Mar 14, 2007
    Posts: 3,240

    nexxussian
    Member

    IIRC he's running in "gas" class, so no tinkering with the fuel chemistry. :(

    If he chooses to run in "fuel" he can run that, or nitromethane, hydrazine, unicorn burps, illudium Q36, .... ;)
     
  11. D_Lazaris
    Joined: Apr 19, 2010
    Posts: 849

    D_Lazaris
    Member
    from So. Cal

    I thought I saw a picture from HR that had the roots blower running off the rear end?. I guess boost would increase throughout the run, better for salt then drag?
     
  12. boby
    Joined: Jan 25, 2012
    Posts: 12

    boby
    Member

    Can't you use liquid oxygen? I believe the density ration of gas to liquid is around 1:100 which means 100x the oxygen in a container vs a gaseous state. For 3 miles you should not need to cool the oxygen to keep it in liquid form if you use cryogenic containers. If you come up with a way to feed liquid oxygen into multiple air tanks in timed, measured spurts to fill the tanks to capacity, which would be 100x less than amount of air(100% capacity in gaseous form) then use the heat from the exhaust to heat the liquid oxygen in the multiple tanks to it's gaseous state then feed those into the intake using one way valves in a timed release thus creating a continuous flow of compressed air.
     
  13. stainlesssteelrat
    Joined: Nov 23, 2010
    Posts: 583

    stainlesssteelrat
    Member
    from ms

  14. beater40
    Joined: Sep 19, 2006
    Posts: 86

    beater40
    Member

    My 2cents worth, I'm no expert in this subject but just from reading here there is a few variable versions available, do you want to do away with the blower completely. Triggerman alluded to an idea above, using pure compessed air is more efficient than the 21% freely available in atmosphere, could you reduce the drag on the blower buy running it slower but with a better air mixture enhanced with pure oxygen injected in there somewhere and hereby making the tanks you carry more efficient and longer lasting, all up a bit of a tradeoff of what you originally suggested and I dont know how different this would be from just using NOS. Love what you are doing with the 38.
     
  15. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

    These calculations would be for a 2 stroke engine. A 4 stroke cylinder fires every second revolution so the formula above would be for 2 revolutions of a 4 stroke or 1/2 as much air.

    If you used compressed air, it would take a huge amount. Size 300 cylinders have a 2990 cubic inch volume and can be pressurized to 2400 psi so they hold about 300 cubic feet of air at atmospheric pressure 150 cubic ft at twice atmospheric pressure which would be about 14 lb boost.

    Since all you really need is oxygen out of the air, a better way to do it would be to use pure oxygen. You would need 1/4 as much and don't need the pressure.
     
  16. That would add drag just as if it was conected to the engine, which it would be.
     
  17. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado


     
  18. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    oxygen would be treated the same as nitrous oxide. Bump you into fuel class. Which isn't all bad.
     
  19. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 2,513

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    38;

    If you don't have the article, or can't lay your hands on one, I could photocopy it & send it to you. Drawings & pics are worth, oh, say, 100,000+ words...

    The N/A -> C/A would be done via a seal-able flapper-type valve, at what ever car speed you choose. It's a very quick change-over, somewhat similar to nitrous. This could be accomplished w/an electric button on the steering wheel, activating a solenoid, giving you control of when, so's you know when the "hit" occurs. I personally would treat it as a gear shift, backpedal, hit it, & repedal. I suppose you could use something similar to the old ACCEL turbo kit valve, which was a bit more gradual.

    Just so's we're on the same page (?), this replaces the blower/intercooler, etc.

    If you're trying to inject the compressed air into the standard system, I'd inject it below the blower, but the fuel had better be perfect at the same time. I think this is way too complicated, at least for me. Suppose it's not much worse than Nitrous, but I still think the original idea is capable of breaking any &/or all of the engine parts, & then some. :) .

    Now iffen you could only figure out how to liquify air, for a small(er) container, reasonably. HA!, that reasonable is the kicker... :D .

    Marcus...
     
  20. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 2,513

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    BTW, 38;

    Forgot to add:

    We here are using *YOUR* $$$, to see something we'd like to do, done. LOL.

    A/F ratio would be done as usual, but calculating for the increased atmospheres, to get a baseline. Since it's available, I'd also use a wideband to help. N/A may be a bit rich, esp at Bville, but shouldn't change when under "boost", since it's a closed system. So where ever you tune/dyno it, what ever you set it at, is what it should run at, where ever you are. In theory, even if you get into, & under, the water in the famed Bville ditch.. :D .

    PSI control + volume would be, most likely, a spl made regulator, along w/the correct dia hoses/fitting. Maybe mil-surplus, but I'd be surprised.

    Marcus...
     
  21. Uh Buddy how about a slave engine to run the blower in the trunk you can set it up to use the same fuel................
     
  22. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Marcus, Those are great ideas! I sent you a PM.:cool:

    Yes, this is to replace the blower and intercooler.


    Carl, it would work in some venues, but it's not allowed at Bonneville.

    What I propose may not be lagal either!

    I sent an email off, to the 'powers that be', to see if it will be allowed. Here is what I sent.

    I have looked up the definition of supercharged in the rulebook, and it specifies "an artificially aspirated engine with a mechanically driven supercharger".

    On my future project, I wish to 'supercharge', or add 14 PSI boost, with previously compressed air. I wish to run in a modified ALT or Comp Coupe class.

    I find nothing in the rule book allowing it, nor prohibiting it, save the wording in 4.FF.

    Is there a category/class that I could run this in, or would the car be deemed time only, after passing tech?

    Would this be a 'gas' class, or 'fuel',because of the difficulty of certifying the compressed air?


    I'm not real hopeful, but we'll see!:D
     
  23. 1952henry
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 1,365

    1952henry
    Member

    The two stroke Detroits used blowers for forcing exhaust out of the cylinders. Some later Detroits were turbocharged. Cummins engines were four stroke and some models had superchargers. Later all had turbochargers. I don't believe any early Cummins engines had both.
     
  24. Two stroke Detroits cannot run without the supercharger because they don't use crankcase air movement ,like a chainsaw or two stroke motorcycle engine, to feed the intake. Detroits use the supercharger for air supply and to scavenge the exhaust while refilling the cylinder with fresh air thru the intake ports in the cylinder while the piston is low in the cylinder.
    Any engine can use a turbocharger as long as the fuel requirements match air induction volume. It's the same with a supercharger or nitrous.
     
  25. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 2,513

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, Buddy;

    If they balk, ask if the pre-compressed air would be legal as an assist.

    You could always run a mini blower to the engine for the pre-C/A, de-clutch it - like an a/c comp, or divert the minis' charge, or just let it spin in its' own air, or slow it down so much it's only a technicality... :D .

    This would be skirting the rules, at best. But what are rules made for, if not to have the most interesting interpretation possible applied... :D . Smokey Yunick would be proud. 'Course, he'd just do it, hide it, & worry about the situation later... :D :D .

    This should be amusing...

    The best of luck in this.

    Marcus...
     
  26. tex1935
    Joined: Jul 17, 2010
    Posts: 67

    tex1935
    Member

    Hey Buddy, How about direct injecting the compressed air into combustion chamber after the exhaust and intake valves close during the compression cycle.This might a way to use a lot less air from the scuba tanks. The injectors from a diesel are what I had in mind . Just a wild idea with no where else to go. Steve
     
  27. toddc
    Joined: Nov 25, 2007
    Posts: 976

    toddc
    Member

    There are well documented problems with using pure oxygen and fuel to run an engine.

    But, what if you ran a cylinder of liquid oxygen and a cylinder of liquid nitrogen and mixed the two gases at the engine? It wouldn't technically be "air" but it would be very close.
     
  28. stainlesssteelrat
    Joined: Nov 23, 2010
    Posts: 583

    stainlesssteelrat
    Member
    from ms

    think what you could do with something like a olds 403 with it's HUGE cylinders..
    or with a flatty lincoln V12 ... you could turn 4 of the cylinders into a front
    integeral supercharger . hahhah.
     
  29. All of the suggestions to use pure oxygen are forgetting one thing - the nitorgen is needed to give some cushion and thermal cooling to keep the pistons alive. A buffering effect that is needed. The pistons in a nitro drag engine are barely at the ability to hold up. Now take 38Flattie's situation with Bonneville and needing to run for several miles. He must have the enngine be able to live, and for a back-up run if he qualifies for a record.

    People do run nitro at Bonneville, but at much lower percentage than drag racing. For the exact reasons listed above to enable the engine to not overheat and damage the parts.

    The idea to use liquid oxygen and notrogen tanks and then mix them may have some possibility. It would require some very reliable controls and I am not sure would be legal for Bonneville.
     
  30. Have you looked at exhaust expansion chambers? Similar to those used on two strokes. When sized correctly and placed in the desired location they have the same function as a supper charger; only drawing in extra air instead of pushing it. Most likely would require special cam timing to take advantage of that phenomenon.
     

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