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cavalier R&P steering question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Circus Bear, Nov 23, 2006.

  1. FiddyFour
    Joined: Dec 31, 2004
    Posts: 9,024

    FiddyFour
    Member

    ok, who sees any problem with capping those power racks and running them as a manual? think they'd last like that or is the ratio too low to be usefull as armstrong steering?
     
  2. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,534

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    Hey Fiddy.

    I have two of those Intrepid racks laying around here! bad as I wanted, I just couldn't figure out a way to make them front steer racks work on my rear steer car. Believe this, I had that damned rack in there in every direction possible, and then a few days later I tried again, just in case I'd missed something. :rolleyes: In the end, I had to go and buy a rack, just sucked.

    Those center take off racks are the nuts for these hot rods, just wished the tie rod ends were more cooperative.
    Gene
     
  3. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,534

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    You need a front steer rack? Can't cap them, loop em back together, capping won't work. Have no idea the ratio. You might be looking like Popeye the sailer man. :D Might maybe be an Intrepid rack in manual available? Be the same as a Chrysler Concord, or an Eagle Vision. Some Visions were stripped down.

    The rear steer GM rack was available in either power or manual.

    What ya thinking about a rack for?
    Gene
     
  4. Circus Bear
    Joined: Aug 10, 2004
    Posts: 3,238

    Circus Bear
    Member

  5. 41 C28
    Joined: Dec 17, 2005
    Posts: 1,772

    41 C28
    Member

    The Fat Man r&p mounting kit comes with threaded tie rod adaptors (14mm x 1.5RH) to use 04-05 Ford Explorer outer tie rod ends with the Cavalier tie rods. The Explorer tie rod ends will fit Mopar tapered steering arm holes.
     
  6. FiddyFour
    Joined: Dec 31, 2004
    Posts: 9,024

    FiddyFour
    Member

    actually, some of the fatman kits come with a plate that bolts to the center takeoff mounts, and then "wraps" around the rack a bit and has tapered holes for stock inner ends. . . at least thats the kit thats available for the 54/55 fords anyhow.

    Gene, the rack conversion is for the 54. . . i dont know why i want to end up with manual, maybe its the "keep the engine bay clean" idea i keep in the back of my head, but with a full fender kustom, why bother is always my second thought. build a decent smallblock ford, and toss the PS pump and AC pumps on it and be comfy :eek: :D
     
  7. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,534

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    dvanecek,
    Sorry bout that, got side tracked. I was told years ago the the racing heim joints would not hold up to street use. When I questioned why, I'm don't remember any specific answer. That means either I was never answered or the answer didn't stick in my brain....

    I suppose that the lack of being able to lube them would probably be the biggest concern, but these days, most tie rod ends are of the non-lube varity, so that probably wouldn't make a lot of difference any more. Were I to do the heim joints, I would pass on the real cheap ones, I've seen to many of those break on impact. The higher quality heim joints seem to hold up better when exposed to impact. Then again, impacts in most racing ventures tend to be pretty extreme.

    Like most things, if we see more then a couple of any one particular item fail and the result was pretty severe damage, we tend to suggest to everyone we see to not use that particular item. This would be reguardless of us not having all the back ground information involving the failures. I've seen heim joints fail in steering systems, but I've also seen tie rod ends fail too. The difference being that most tie rod end failures were directly related to lack of maintenance or being the result of a crash. The heim joint failures I've seen caused the crashes, maintenance unknown. Guess I'm more confortable with adapting something the auto industry has used for years. Just me.

    Probably didn't help much, sorry bout that.
    Gene
     
  8. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,534

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    Fiddy,
    Shit man, you already got one racer, and you keep talking bout a HAMB rail, so make that 54 a cruiser, better yet, make it "the hauler".

    The Hauler: fe block, dual quads, c-6, a power r&p, nice seats, ac, power windows, hell, power everything, big honking trailer hitch. Double car trailer (with the enclosed storage box) so you can haul the rail, the Willis, and the bf grill for the thrs night BBQ to Mokan. I kin see it now....That little 2 door coupe dragging a semi trailer around. "HEY 'ya all! Fiddy's here."

    Damn, forgot mama fiddy wants a hot rod too....better make that a 3 car trailer.
    Gene
     
  9. Circus Bear
    Joined: Aug 10, 2004
    Posts: 3,238

    Circus Bear
    Member

    Great info guy's. I was planning on using the higher quality heims with grease fittings in this case. I'm pretty sure they will be fine. that explorer tie rod end info is great I may use those if I have issues adapting the stockers.
     
  10. Lonely_Kasket13
    Joined: Dec 5, 2007
    Posts: 120

    Lonely_Kasket13
    Member
    from Minnesota

    I tried reading through all of this but being new to all of this...and still in the learning process of building cars...I just want to ask one question I guess...will any of this work on my 51 plymouth...I am putting a bigger motor in and am having steering box clearance issues...and wonder if a r&p are the way to go to get clearance...can anyone help?...pm me with your thoughts...thanks...
     
  11. 49dodgecoronet
    Joined: Oct 14, 2010
    Posts: 75

    49dodgecoronet
    Member
    from Roland Mb

    i know most of this thread is almost 4 years old, but so far it is the most informative i have found on this conversion. Is the cavy rack a center linkage rack? and will the factory linkage work ? or do i have to make up my own linkage ? the only cavy racks i have been able to find pictures of look like they are end linkage.

    thanks for any info
    levi
     
  12. 50dodge4x4
    Joined: Aug 7, 2004
    Posts: 3,534

    50dodge4x4
    Member

    The picture in this post on reply #30 shows an Intrepid steering rack. The Cavalier rack itself looks exactly the same, the tie rods are different and the part that connects to the steering column are different, but the rack looks almost identical. I'd love to post more pictures, but those I had are on my other dead computer and the car is long gone.

    They are center steering racks. When I was putting the 39 together, I only bought the rack because I had 2 Intrepid racks, complete, laying here. I can't believe you could not adapt the GM tie rods to work, but I simply did not even look at them. I'd be real supprised if anything is going to bolt right in without modification. Most of the new stuff that would have a rack have a wider suspension track.

    The rack without the tie rods attached look like any other rack except at the center are two threaded holes the inner tie rod bolts into. There are no provisions for tie rods to connect at the end of the rack like other racks have. Gene
     
  13. leaded
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 326

    leaded
    Member
    from Norway

    The GM (Cavalier,etc.) has one minor trouble. When making the "wrap" mount plate,(etc. mount who go "around" to the other side for tierod mount..) thats making a bigger tension on the original tierod mounting bolts. In these racks are a small plastic spacer inside who get some movement when in tension by the extra tierod connector.
    As in the sketch (from side) the red arrow show movement, its not much, but as longer mount bracket thats used,the bigger the movement.
    The rack holds up very well, and are also used by companys for modded Corvettes, and i got recorded 5y now without trouble, (w/ just angled tierod mount bracket.) My setup does give a movement approx.1/8" up and down on tierod connection. This doesnt conflict in use, and no sloop in geometry.
     

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  14. leaded
    Joined: Nov 17, 2005
    Posts: 326

    leaded
    Member
    from Norway

    measures, sorry but only in mm.[​IMG]
     
  15. 36DodgeRam
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 505

    36DodgeRam
    Member

    I put a Cav R & P in my '40 Plymouth years ago with a kit from Plydo. It works great, I recommend the swap. But I lost some turn radius over the stock system.
     
  16. Rickdeluxe
    Joined: Jun 11, 2005
    Posts: 76

    Rickdeluxe
    Member

    My p19 Plymouth is in the process of having the Cavalier rack installed (Cavalier steering is the same as Saab 900 steering and Opel Vectra). I had some trouble finding a tie rod end that would fit the tapered bit in the Plymouth steering rod and on the other side screw in the Cavalier steering arm.
    The problem was solved by machining/tapping a coupler with internal thread 11/16 one end and M16 outer thread on the opposing side.
    Piccie shows all...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  17. cattmann
    Joined: Jun 21, 2011
    Posts: 65

    cattmann
    Member
    from NB Canada

    Can anyone tell me what pump to use? I have a 318 engine installed in my 1941 Chrysler Royal and was going to use a Saginaw pump due to having some brackets already. Also I noticed that an Omni car had a rack in 1980 and it is a saginaw pump.I guess i am trying to find a pump with suitable psi for a rack.
     
  18. I put a cavy rack in my 50 shoe which is a power unit. I got a manual rack, which by the way is a few inches shorter but it takes a different u joint which is splined. Anyway, i'm running the power rack with capped ends for now till i find the manual u joint and other than it's like typical manual steering in parking situations, it's steers beautifuly. I love it. I suspect thou, but not sure about lubrication of the shaft. I may have a sealed bearing or not. I've only put about 3000 miles on this new build
    Any one know where i can get a u joint for a manual rack? I've tried almost everyone. Manual racks seem hard to get as well.
    Pic shows manual rack end. U joint shown is stock power unit.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  19. GeezersP15
    Joined: Dec 4, 2011
    Posts: 555

    GeezersP15
    Member
    from N.E. PA

    I'm just starting to install a Beretta/Cavalier rack in my 1948 Plymouth. Using Intrepid tie rods, and a machined steel block with appropriate angles milled on the ends to make the Intrepid tie rods parallel with the rack assembly. I'll post pics as the work progresses. Still fabricating mounting brackets, and gathering parts.
    Using a GM "canned ham" pump, and a Heidt adjustable relief valve, because I cannot seem to determine what pressure the rack wants. Even the local Chevrolet dealer wasn't able to give me a PSI rating. I should be able to dial it in, if the pump develops excessive pressure.
    Still have a few issues to work out with adding a pulley to drive the pump (SBC engine, and clearance issues with the lower radiator hose), but I think I'll get there eventually.:D
     
  20. 4woody
    Joined: Sep 4, 2002
    Posts: 2,110

    4woody
    Member

    I can't answer about the Heidt's valve, but I've gone through the pump selection hell recently and here's what I found:

    I started with a Saginaw canned ham pump out of a Chevy pickup (this is on a '38 Chrysler 4000lb car with the Cavalier rack). It was way over-assisted and the steering was unpleasantly busy at freeway speeds.

    I got the Borgeson shim kit (Really just thin washers & a widget to hold the P/S valve in your vice while working on it) to reduce the pressure. I put in 4 shims and it helped a lot; still a little too touchy over center,but I could have lived with it. But then the pump failed (no fault of the shims- it was old).

    In searching I found that my original truck pump may have been rated as much as 1400psi (or more), and the Cav rack is happier at 1000 or even a bit less. According to my reading 1962-1983 Corvette P/S pumps were rated at 1000psi.

    The 1972 pump is canned ham style (Apparently they also used the earlier-looking reservoir in '72, so be sure you get the one you like), uses the keyway pulley, and has the IFF pressure fitting. Those were all important to me so I wouldn't have to buy a new pressure hose or pulley.

    The size of the orifice in the pressure valve is what determines GPM flow. At "Crankshaft Coalition" http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Swapping_to_rack_and_pinion_steering they suggest welding this hole closed and re-drilling it @ 1/8" to reduce the flow rate by 20%. Maybe I'm lucky, but the rebuilt pump I got (remember, 1972 Corvette application) was already that size. Yes, I compared it to my old one to be sure. They are not all the same.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Just drove it another 60 freeway miles today. Pump & rack seem very happy together.
     
  21. GeezersP15
    Joined: Dec 4, 2011
    Posts: 555

    GeezersP15
    Member
    from N.E. PA

    Thank you for that information. I just knew someone on this forum would help out.
     
  22. cattmann
    Joined: Jun 21, 2011
    Posts: 65

    cattmann
    Member
    from NB Canada

    Yes indeed .Thanks for the pump info. I was looking at a pump from a 1980 Omni. It is a saginaw and looks identical to the chevy pumps. Can one assume that it will me setup for a lower pressure because it is used on a rack and pinion:rolleyes:
     
  23. cattmann
    Joined: Jun 21, 2011
    Posts: 65

    cattmann
    Member
    from NB Canada

    This is a pump listed for an Omni or Horizon around 1979
     

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  24. 41 C28
    Joined: Dec 17, 2005
    Posts: 1,772

    41 C28
    Member

    The donor car for the 318 in my 48 Dodge was a 70 Coronet. I used the stock ps pump with my Cavalier R&P. Works fine.
     
  25. 4woody
    Joined: Sep 4, 2002
    Posts: 2,110

    4woody
    Member

    Forgot to add this for us Mopar types:

    On a big block Mopar w/o air, with the P/S pump mounted high on the driver's side I found that a P/S pulley from a long water pump SBC worked. The whole pulleys & brackets / what works with what is not well documented to say the least.
     
  26. cattmann
    Joined: Jun 21, 2011
    Posts: 65

    cattmann
    Member
    from NB Canada

    i have brackets from a 360 but they mount in behind the water pump pulley and end up making the pump location too low and it hits on my frame under the battery. I was also looking at brackets on ebay for early 70's darts and dusters which install the pump high on the drivers side.I am not going to panic about a pump at this point because i haven't installed my new rack yet and it will probably give me lots of grief.
     

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