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Jag Jaguar IRS into a 46' International Harvester

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by IRON MAIDEN, Feb 2, 2011.

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  1. hershambob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,317

    hershambob
    Member

    a lot of people here dont bother with the radius rods in solid mounted jag rears,and the top of the diff does slant downwards,
     
  2. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    I'm rubber mounting it.
     
  3. Mudgy
    Joined: Dec 4, 2010
    Posts: 231

    Mudgy
    Member

    Hi
    I've been researching a Jag rear too, and I've found that the top of the assembly over the pumpkin leans forward 6 degrees (pinion angle)
    also I see people saying rubber mounting the rear will lessen diff noise though your chassis. I'm still looking, and won't make a decision until I read, read, read all I can.and ask questions of those who have done it.

    good luck, I like the name of the car too ..... "language of the Mad...."
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  4. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    I'm still not sure. I've read over and over that the motor and trans is down 3 degrees but the pinion angle of the rear is set to "0" degrees in the Jag.
    I'm starting to think this is one of those things that will never be a 100%. I really think I'm gonna follow the general rule of thinking and try to match up the pinion angle of both the motor/trans and diff. I'm a ways off from actually mounting the IRS so I have more time to research. I will at least wait until my motor and trans is mounting to see what angle I get it in. I'm not sure how they will sit with the Jag IFS and my cab. I'm hoping the trans will clear the cab and I can set the angle a 3 degrees. If so, I will try to match it with the rear. I'm not too concerned with the wheels moving back a bit with the suspension travel. To me that would be better than having vibration from the driveline.
    I went yesterday and picked up a bunch of steel for finishing off my frame. Boxing plate material, boxed tubing, channel,.... 80' of steel for $120 :) It sure is nice to have connections. Not sure how much he saved me but I'm sure it was a lot as the workers in the shop that cut the 20' lengths of steel for me were looking at my invoice with a strange look. The "who is this guy and how did he get these prices" look. Love that.
    Anyways, switching gears for a few so I won't have any progress pictures on the rear for a while. I'm gonna build a frame for the bed. When I was gonna use the Explorer 8.8 rear axle in my truck, I bought a set of leaf spring hangers for about $60 from a local 4X4 parts manufacturer. Rough Stuff Specialties. It was the front hangers and rear shackle mounts with poly bushings. Rather than scrap them or sell them, they will work as the rear pivot mount for my tilt bed if I use them together. So I'm building a frame out of 1'x3" x .120 box tubing that the bed will attach to. It will mount on the end of the frame with the poly bushing and pivot there. The front will rest on rubber pads on the top of the frame. I will fab up a spring loaded latching system with the release on the drivers side to be able to quickly tilt the bed when fueling and what not.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  5. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,816

    BJR
    Member

    Don't make it so you have to tilt the bed to fuel. What happens if you have a load in the bed and need gas?
     
  6. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    Not gonna happen. I have a newer Dodge Ram that's my work truck. This won't be used for that. I see your point though. Plus I plan on using the factory fill spot on the cab anyways. I might be using the dual tanks from the Jaguar so the 2nd tank would need to be filled by lifting the bed. Primary tank won't have to. I actually thought ahead ; )
     
  7. toddc
    Joined: Nov 25, 2007
    Posts: 976

    toddc
    Member


    I would recommend mounting the rear suspension before the motor and box, and adjusting the motor and box to suit. Apart from the wheel moving back when the suspension compresses, it will also be even more prone to squat in the rear when you stomp on it. (Jags already do this)

    The pinion angle should match the output shaft angle, but it doesn't need to be in the same direction. The diff can be nose down and the gearbox tail down. As long as they are both the same angle it will be good. This is a scan from one of my engineering books that explains pretty well. (hooke joint = universal joint)
    [​IMG][​IMG]



    Also, the twin tanks in a Jag are a real headache, they might work in Chev trucks ( ? ) but are more trouble than most anything else on a Jag.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  8. Pir8Darryl
    Joined: Jan 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,487

    Pir8Darryl
    Member

    Iron Maiden,
    Tech week coming up... lots of pics my friend. Document everything very well. You could be a contender!!!
     
  9. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member


    ????????


    Toddc, thanks yet again. I will read that. I have someone willing to buy the two Jag tanks but I wanted to see how they would fit in my truck first. If I don't like em', I'm selling them to buy another. Just trying to use as much as I can. Still need to rip out the wiper system in it to have for my truck. I want to get the gas pedal as well, it look like a nice setup.
     
  10. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member


    I have had two Jags with twin tanks, never an issue.

    .
     
  11. Pir8Darryl
    Joined: Jan 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,487

    Pir8Darryl
    Member

    HAMB Tech Week...
    When all the mad fabricators and garage tinkerers do a "tech thread" explaining in great detail how they did, built, or accomplished something relevant to the hot rod community.

    There is usually a very nice prize, and this time is no exception
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=556172

    Have a look thru the tech archives. Quite a few of these are past winners
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8

    Anyone can propose and sponsor a tech week. Infact, I did one a couple years ago. Got about 10 guys who donated stuff for prizes, and over 100 tech entries.

    Sooooo,,, take lots of photo's of your IFS/IRS conversion, doccument everything you do very well, and in a couple weeks when tech week rolls around, put together a "how to" and submit it as your entry!!! :cool:
     
  12. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    Not so sure a Jag IFS/IRS install is worthy as it's been done so many times before me and there are plenty of threads online to be sifted through. Plus, how many guys are building K/KB series Binders? I'm on the OldIHC site and there are only a handfull of interested members who care what I'm doing. Even though, as we have all seen by my pics, this is a very good option for these trucks as both the front and rear systems damn near bolt in. Thanks for the heads up on the tech reads. Didn't know HAMB had those.
     
  13. Pauly da mick
    Joined: Nov 14, 2006
    Posts: 245

    Pauly da mick
    Member


    The front clip is a popular choice for Chevy/GMC A.D. trucks so I don't think it would be much of a stretch to put one in your IH.:cool:

    The only problem the Brits have with putting Jag parts in American iron is that the donor cars are nearly all RHD so they have to source a LHD rack, obviously not an issue over here..

    Heres some links about the rear set up..
    http://www.uk-hotrods.co.uk/v2/tech/jag_rear/tech_jag.php

    http://www.nsra.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=40688&whichpage=1
     
  14. toddc
    Joined: Nov 25, 2007
    Posts: 976

    toddc
    Member

    I've had 5 with twin tanks, 3 were troublesome. 2 I never drove:D:D:D

    The 3 way valves gave me a lot of grief. I'd fill both tanks only to find that the regulator return would be pumping into the wrong tank - petrol everywhere :eek: Or fill just one tank, not watch the gauge while driving and run out of fuel. It had drained to the other tank...

    I've had dozens of cars with only 1 fuel tank. Never had any of these problems with them....
     
  15. Pir8Darryl
    Joined: Jan 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,487

    Pir8Darryl
    Member

    All the same, I would encourage you to at least consider it.
    You have done a tremendous amount of work finding out the details that most of the other swap write up's seem to leave out. Perfecting the angles and such, as well as rubber mounting your IFS/IRS, which most other swaps do not.
    It sure cant hurt, and it might just earn you a $1000 prize... If nothing else, having a nice condensed tutorial on mounting the Jag components would be worthy of putting in the tech archives. As it is, you have to dig thru hundreds of pages of comments and feedback to piece together the relevant information.
     
  16. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member

    Bwahahaha........ You may be on to something...

    .
     
  17. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    OK, so I read more than anyone should ever have to on one subject. And I still don't know the right way. This pinion angle argument is down right crazy. Rule of thumb, blah blah blah.... Keep reading how it's a must to match the M/T angle to the Diff, then the next guy writes how it doesn't apply to the Jag rear. ??????????????
    I still have time to figure this out but it seems that every time I read into it, I just get more confused. I have a source for a set of wheels and tires from a buddy and if it's what I want, I should get them for cheap. They are Centerline Champ 500's. I love the original satin Centerlines and found a set for $250 but would still need tires. So I'm hoping the wheels and tires are the sizes I want and can get them at the deal I'm hoping for. Then the install will be back on. After all my questions and reading, here is my plan of attack.

    I will pull the front springs and place wood blocks in their spots to level the lower "A" arms so the front suspension will sit at normal ride height.
    Install the front wheels and tires I plan on running.

    Remove all four coil-overs on the rear suspension and like the front, block it so it sits at the correct ride height. Half shafts level that is. Install the rear wheels and tires I plan on using.

    Position the Jag rear, cage and all, back under the frame. I can then position my frame on the Jag cage how I need it to keep whatever rake and ride height I want.

    The only question is the damn angle of the Jag IRS. OK, I have more than one ; )

    Sounds like I should place my angle finder on the front flange of the differencial as it's machined flat and would be a true indication of the pinion angle of the rear.
    If I set it level "0 degrees", won't that result in the suspension travel moving straight up and down?

    Or tilt the front flange up 3 degrees( causing the cage and all to tilt the same) and try to match that when I install the motor? Won't that cause the suspension travel to move backwards in my rear fenders a bit in its travel?

    I'm sure 3-5 degrees shouldn't be too tough to set my motor and trans at when I go to install it. But it's the damn Jag differencial that I'm not sure of and it seems nobody is. I've read the Jag sets it at 0 degrees but their motor/trans is at 3?

    My hopes with this truck as a daily driver will be 7K-8K miles a year. I plan to drive it. With that, I worry about doing it right so I'm not having to replace parts do to premature wear. I also don't want vibration on the freeway as I will be driving on one to work.

    Too bad we don't have one of the Jag engineers available to chime in on this.
     
  18. toddc
    Joined: Nov 25, 2007
    Posts: 976

    toddc
    Member

    Its been a while since I had a cage/diff pulled apart, but I think there is pinion angle built into the setup. I seem to remember the pinion being nose up when the suspension was level.
     
  19. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member


    From what I read, the top of the cage and the top of the pumpkin are both angled. Together, they cancel each other out and place the pinion at 0 degrees. If there was a built in pinion angle already and all you had to do was level the cage/suspension..... I would be a happy camper. But.... don't think it is from what I've found online.
     
  20. toddc
    Joined: Nov 25, 2007
    Posts: 976

    toddc
    Member

    Do you have an angle finder? Seems like its time to start measuring your suspension to check what's true and what's just internet garbage.

    If you level the suspension the way I described earlier it would give you a good (reliable) basis to work your numbers from. THe bolts I measured from are " 2 " in the drawing below.
    [​IMG]
     
  21. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    Didn't you say the rear was 5mm higher? Was it possible the ground was not level and that was where the 5mm came from? I'm gonna have the bed back off today and will check the rear. I'll level the unit from the bolts on the bottom, the ones you measured from, then check the pinion angle from the face of the flange. Stay tuned ; )
     
  22. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    BTW Toddc, where did that drawing come from? Do you have a Jag manual?
     
  23. toddc
    Joined: Nov 25, 2007
    Posts: 976

    toddc
    Member


    Yeah, its from the Jag manual. The thing is an inch and a half thick :D:D:D
     
  24. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    Been a bit since I posted. The Jag rear got put on the side burner until I was able to figure out the bed. I turned it into a dump bed and needed to have it in its mounting position so that I can make sure I get the Jag rear in the right position. So I went to town on the bed making a bed frame and the rear pivot/mounts so that it can be mounted and tilted out of my way to work on the rear. It's nowhere done as it still needs the crossmembers for the wood floor, front latching system, and a few other things. But it works and is what I needed to do to make sure, and have piece of mind, that I am mounting the Jag rear right where it needs to be. But, like everything else I've done to the truck, once I figure 1 thing out, it creates a new problem or decision to make on my direction. Bed down, who cares if the rear is in the OEM cage. But looking at how cool the truck looks with the bed tilted up......... now I'm having second thoughts on if I should keep it in the cage or not.

    So my questions are this.....
    How much better will the ride be if it's rubber mounted over removing it from the cage and building a new crossmember and mounting it that way?
    And give me your thoughts on what you think I should do. I am leaning towards uncaging this cat simply for the awe factor of how it will look when I lift the bed.
    Let's hear your thoughts....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  25. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

  26. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

  27. IRON MAIDEN
    Joined: May 28, 2010
    Posts: 517

    IRON MAIDEN
    Member

    In the last picture above, see how much better it would look out of the cage?????
     
  28. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,816

    BJR
    Member

    Will it ride or handle any different without the cage....No
    Will the truck be lower without the cage... maybe
    Will it be a lot more work to install without the cage...YES
    Will it look better without the cage....YES
    Will the truck get finished sooner with the cage... Yes
    Only you can decide if it's worth the trouble, if it was me I would leave the cage on and finish the truck so I could drive it. Instead of trying to make it so awesome that it never gets done. But that's just me.
     
  29. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,730

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    I have to disagree. it's pretty damned easy without the cage. And straightforward. Not to say that I have a preference. But I find the installs equal either way... just saying.
     
  30. I've always heard (and practiced) level the frame, pinion up 3*, motor and trans down 3*.

    My $.02

    Git er' done
     
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