Oldsmobile J2

Owen post more on your work!! PLEASE!

Mark, lets see some more pics of the car.

 

Photos courtesy of Chris Shelton and R&C

 

You guys have got me thinkin' - I just ought to pull that ZZ1 HO350 and Muncie M20 out of my '53 pickup and put in a nice 324 or 371 Olds with a beefed up Hydra-Matic. Maybe a modern 4-barrel with a good hydraulic grind cam. The only problem is those Olds like compression and we don't have that kind of gas anymore. That was a secret back then - buy a new Olds, take a slice off the heads and shim the rocker stands. That's still stock isn't it? Nothing comes of the line (street) like an Olds with a Hydra-Matic.
All this new-found interest in the old stuff got me lookin' back in my shop - found a pile of old magazines - guess what's on the cover of Car Craft Sept 1957? Prettiest cover they ever had. Sorry about the condition.

 

That was the 303 that Eric Rickman put in his '54 Corvette.

 

Mark, Re your engine and other ramblings:
The cylinder block of an Olds engine built for racing may or may not have the same casting number as a production block. You could compare the numbers on your block with another 371 for a start. The serial number stamped on your block might also be a clue. If it’s a special engine, the serial number won’t be anything like a production number. It would also be interesting to get the serial number off of the ‘race car’ that your engine came out of.
Internally, any special parts might be stamped with numbers or letters. The conn rods and caps will be stamped with numbers – 1, 2, 3, etc., where the production rods and caps were not. Experimental and special non-production parts were stamped or etched with what we called ‘index numbers’. Also, if any internal parts such as the cam or rockers are Isky or another speed equipment manufacturer, then these are not original to your engine. Olds made everything in their engines. Some manufacturers back then sometimes used Isky cams (Ford and Studebaker for instance).
One thing in the photo of your engine – it looks like your manifold is aluminum, maybe an Offenhauser. This is not a good manifold. The stock cast iron manifold or an Edelbrock will far outperform the Offenhauser. A stock four-barrel will outperform it too, especially at low end. And that goes for fuel economy too, if you care. Of course, one four-barrel isn’t very cool, especially on a rod with no hood.
What do you have for a transmission? Some of the 371 cranks for a Hydra-Matic did not have a pilot bushing. To change to a stick, you had to bore the end of the crank and install a pilot bushing and retainer. Olds didn’t make many standard shift cars. We used a Buick transmission from 1951 till ?? When Buick quit making standard transmissions, Olds bought a few thousand of them and stored them wrapped in rust preventative paper. Those trans are probably still stored somewhere. There was one Buick standard trans that was better (but still not easy to shift), and that was one listed for an Oldsmobile hearse or ambulance. It had different ratios and a longer tailshaft and housing. I put one of those in an Olds two-door.
Long-winded...

 

Oldsmobiles for the most part. 5500 redline.

 

A plain ol' ordinary street J-2 isn't that hard to come by, I see manifolds for under $100 now and then, but seems to me that was just a tripower and cam to match. Factory racing stuff from that period.. well you read the post above, Lee Petty got 5 of them, and not a lot of other guys ran Oldsmobiles in that era.

Be nice to hear how they got around the ban -

 

Oldsmobile heavy duty parts and other ramblings:
After the factory racing ban, if you called Oldsmobile, wrote a letter, or went to a dealer and asked about racing an Oldsmobile, you were given a form letter would say something like “Oldsmobile does not now or have they ever participated in automobile racing, and Oldsmobile does not sell racing cars or parts”. Then the letter would continue, “however, we do offer an extensive list of heavy duty parts…” These parts included everything you needed to build a Grand National NASCAR car, a dirt track ‘stock car’, or other race cars. Nothing at that time specifically for drag racing, but all the engine stuff was good for that. We had special axles (bigger studs) and wheels (double center section), and everything had an Olds part number – and listed as Heavy Duty equipment. All of this stuff was available at our local dealer – you just had to know what to order. That was when NASCAR was run with ‘production’ cars, motors, frames.
I remember a guy that showed up at Oldsmobile in Lansing to ask about racing. I can’t remember who it was, but he was from the South somewhere. He just came in off the street, but got the royal treatment. He got shown where our experimental engines were built, he saw the dyno rooms, got shown all the parts that we could provide him. He left that day with, lists of ‘heavy duty parts’, everything arranged, who to contact, etc. This was around 1962, right at the time of some really good racing, but no factory participation. Right.
Back then for an engine to be legal, the Manufacturer had to actually have the same engine for sale to the public. Sometimes, that meant only that the dealer in Daytona Beach had a few engines in stock or could order one. What this really meant was that we at Oldsmobile were able to get competitor’s engines – and we did. I can remember seeing the Ford 390 cu. in. 375 h.p. run on the dyno. This was before the 390 production engine. The cars then had the horsepower and cu. in. in big lettering on the air cleaner and the hoods. Anyway, the Olds engineers kind of laughed at the 375 h.p., but the first blast on the dyno, without break-in or any tuning, produced over 425 h.p. We were all lying about everything. I also saw Chryslers and Pontiac engines run on the dyno. After running them, we tore everything down and checked everything out. If I remember right, a Chrysler with the ram manifolded two 4-barrels had the record for h.p. But I think we beat that later with a twin-turbocharged 455 Olds. This was built on the 394 block and ended up in an execs personal 1963 Starfire. How would you like to run up against him on the street?
Anyone want to hear about Oldsmobile and Pontiac engineers street-racing against each other circa 1962?
Owen Thomas is not my real name

 

OK, I'm sitting here, at the edge of my seat. I have work to do, but I MUST hear these stories. Yorgatron is right, us Rocketeers are anxiously awaiting the next story. Bring it on and thank you VERY much...

 

I found out years later that the baddest 61 Olds in our area in the early 60s had some of those "not publicized" factory parts. He claimed that they could be ordered but that the pt#s weren't in the dealers parts books. You are the first one to confirm that those parts were available. I have no idea how he learned about their availability.

 

so how does one recognize a W1 motor?

 

YES !!!

 

Got to be a little careful what I say here – and my memory might be a little fuzzy too, but…
An Oldsmobile transmission engineer, Art Weidman, loved hot cars and was a really good guy, was the key player here.
Olds built up a complete 1961 ‘Daytona’ car, completely race stuff, NASCAR track ready – this included a very special engine with solid lifters. Art took this one out at lunchtime and blew the engine on the highway to Charlotte, Michigan. Heard he was wound waaaay out in second gear when it let go. The Engineering garage got a call for a tow back to the garage.
I think Art also blew up an experimental big block aluminum engine, called the X-80, in a car on the street somewhere. We only made two or three of those engines.
Art was given a car to play with, maybe to leave the others alone. This car was a 1961 Olds 2-door hardtop. That car got everything possible to hop it up. I remember that two sets of prototype 1963 cylinder heads were made for some experimental project, and we borrowed one set for Art’s car – don’t know whether anyone ever figured out where those heads went. Beautiful ports in the heads, even before we worked on them. Mostly just a polish job. There were some drums of special fuel delivered, maybe to use in Art’s car.
Anyway, Art would take this car to meet Pontiac engineers, sometimes in Lansing, sometimes down to Pontiac. Street racing at night. We would work on Art’s car and engine for days, getting ready, and the Pontiac guys were probably doing the same. We couldn’t wait to hear from Art how it went the next morning.
One story I remember: One night, the Pontiac guys came up to Lansing with two cars. Art said one of the Pontiacs beat him but he beat the other. After the action, Art in his Olds and the two Pontiacs were at a drive-in restaurant, and they were challenged by some guy with his new 348 or 409 Chevy (whatever in 1961 or 1962). Back out on the highway to Charlotte. The three cars all blew off the Chevy. Not even close. The guy in the Chevy said he could take being beat by a Pontiac, but being beat by an Oldsmobile was unbelievable. I don’t know whether he figured out who those guys were.
A long time ago...

 

Let me know when u do that..............

 

Amazing stories Owen Thomas!

By all means feel free to keep typing until your fingers are tired!

I was surprised that you don't like the Offy intake manifold. I replaced my 56' 4bbl intake with an Offy 3x2 just like it on my 324 and I was significantly faster in the midrange to top end, but a little slower just off the line. Not to mention the 4bbl was way better for burnouts. I do also have an Edelbrock 3x2 manifold but I don't have any carbs to fit it without adapters. I've always wanted to run it though, just to see which was superior.

 

Back around ’62, Olds built what they called a ‘hot rod motor’, using all aftermarket stuff. No cylinder boring, head milling or any other machining, just built up the way a guy would do at home in his garage. I think we did a couple of versions, or tried different parts. I remember a Chet Herbert 280 roller and an Isky E7 (?), and different manifolds too. One version, on the dyno, produced peak power at 6,500 – peak horsepower at 6,500 rpm. This thing had no power at lower revs, and then came on really strong around 5,200. A real kick in the ass from 5,200 to 6.500 then fell off a cliff. The truth was that the horsepower at 6,500 was about the same as a stock hydraulic grind motor produced at maybe 4,200. But when you looked at the whole hp curve, the stock motor had good power from 3,000 all the war to 5,000, and could go to 5,400 with fast leak-down lifters, still making good power. An Olds with the stock motor would be way ahead in a drag race when the power finally came on in the hot rod Olds. No contest. The stocker would win easily.
I like the Edelbrock 3-carb manifold and the stock J2 is a good manifold too. I don’t like log type manifolds such as the Weiand. The secret (for street use) is in the runners. Those manifolds and the stock 4-barrel manifolds had long, 180 degree runners that ended square to the others. Olds changed their 4-barrel manifold runners in ’55 or ’56 by squaring the runner junctions, and picked up 10 h.p., or something like that. Good low-end. A Hydra-Matic ’55 Olds was hard to beat off the line.
You could get really great performance with the 4-barrel carbs that are available today, like the Edelbrock that I have on my truck. But I have thought about changing to a dual 4-barrel Edelbrock – those things really look cool. That’s what we’re after today anyway.
…wonder what ever happened to my 6-carb Stromberg set-up, or my Vertex mag, or my J2 manifold with a set of Rochesters that had been flowed in the Experimental carb room, the big chromed stock J2 air cleaner…I did find a set of Traction-Masters for a ’54-’56 Olds hanging on the wall out in my shop – never been on a car.
I’m going to see Charlie Johnson in a week or two. Charlie and Noah Canfield ran an Olds powered ‘modified roadster’ called the Glass Chariot in the early ‘60’s. I used to go with them to the drags sometimes. Got top eliminator, ran 8.80 the last time I went to Detroit Dragway with them. I think later Dick LaHaie sometimes filled in for Charlie driving the car, and bought it from Charlie and Noah when they built a rail. Anybody know that history?

 

it just so happens i need a set of those for my '54 Oldsmobile Holiday 88,the last time i tried to launch my car hard it broke the pinion yoke and the driveshaft fell out in the street

 

This has been one heck of an interesting read. And co-incidentally I just picked up a complete running gear out of a 54 Olds today. Motor, transmission, driveline and rearend. It is all going in my 34 sedan and the only changes are shortening the driveline and rebuilding the 4 barrel carb. Everything else is staying as is.

 

Cool engine,Is that in the fake 32 roadster-pickup that you got shit about earlier, I'm building one also !

 

A ’34 Ford with Olds power is sweet. With a Hydra-Matic you could run a real conservative rear end, maybe a 3.08. Make a nice economical cruiser.
Back in ’56, I rode in a ’34 roadster with a stock Olds but all Ford driveline. Everything was stock – the roadster and the Olds engine. Owner was a student an Michigan State and he and his dad built the car for him to use at college. Not a hot rod, just a nice little Ford roadster for school. Red with white top, and white walls of course. But it was fast, no muss no fuss, no noise. Took out to the 1/4 mile on Farm Lane (MSU) and ran about 90 on the speedo with three of us in the car. Anyone remember the 1/4 mile that the University had marked out on Farm Lane? Used to get crowded some nights.
Typical back in the 50’s was Olds engine adapted to Ford trans and driveline. The cars were light, tires had no traction, so usually there were no problems. The tires would light up before anything would break.
I’ve got this ’53 Chevy truck, Nova sub-framed, with a ZZ1 and Muncie M20. Much rather have an early Olds and H-M trans, but it’s easier to just buy a crate motor. I found a site on the net that has simulated early Olds valve covers to fit onto a sbc. Not the same is it?

 

Owen, Wow I can't believe some of the stories. I too am at work and have spent the last hour digesting what you've talked about. It just so happens this weekend I am pulling a 371 olds with a 4 barrel and Hydramatic out of a car this weekend for my '27 T Sedan. I've been trying to find all the stats that I can on the motor but its been a depressing search. Its coming out of a 57 olds 88 4 door. I know its probably nothing really special. But is there anything that I should look for, maybe they slipped one of the W motors in a 4 door for some crazy reason maybe...?

 

I'm assuming that you are talking to me

Yes, it is in the fake 32 roadster pickup.

Post some pictures of your build!

 

I'm not even a Olds guy, but this is awesome.

 

Thanks for all the stories owen thomas. When I found this motor I had know idea what it was until I opened it up. Its a 56 324 bored an 1/8" and stoked a 1/4". It has a roller cam with roller cam bearings and adjustable rockers with olds part numbers on them. I added the blower setup. It a long way from running again but I can't wait to hear it.

 

great picture Sam,

my J2 motor is still in the shop,
got a new crankshaft coming,
thank you GOATROPER02

and sounds like I will have another pair of heads soon too

but in the meen time I've been playing with one of the 303's

 

Regarding the ’27 T. You don’t need a W-1 motor for that thing. Just stock with the Hydra-Matic. Don’t need a high ratio axle either. Tons of torque.
The Hydra-Matic I really like is the early one, before the ‘Jetaway’ in ’56. Except in ’56 the standard 88 (not the Super 88 of 98) came with the old transmission. Some guys I knew bought a B&M, took it apart and then were duplicating it. The main thing was to dump the 1-2 shift oil with a valve we - I mean they made, and a link to the shifter, and grind a detent to hold it in 1<SUP>st</SUP> gear. Then you could manually shift 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4. Man, those things would shift hard – and fast too. Really come off the line. A 3.42 rear end was perfect, a 3.64 was maybe too much for the highway but o.k. for the drags. 8.20x15 white walls, Kelly Celebrities or maybe U.S. Royals – which we called U.S. Baldies because they wore so fast.
I like the 303, the 324, and the ’57/’58 371. Probably like the 324 best, especially given a little more compression. A little off the heads really wakes them up (and shim the rocker stands). A 1/8 over 371 is a really strong motor too. From 1959 on are good engines, I just personally like the early ones. Lots of velocity with a 4-barrel and stock ports and valves. Good low down. Maybe a little polish and port matching there. A modern Edelbrock or Holley would be fantastic on one of these old engines.
Ignition was never a problem. I had one of the old Mallory dual point distributors with ‘Mag Spark Transformer’. Anyone remember those? Anyone remember Boot Mallory and his Chrysler 300? Actually, I went back to the stock distributor because the Mallory ate a lot of expensive points. Guess what? The car ran better. Then the Magspark went in favor of a stock coil – even better, especially at higher rpm. From then on, ran a stock ignition, Packard 440 spark plug cables, AC C42 plugs if you were running hard, otherwise AC44. Some guys ran Champions, J-12Y, but I liked the AC's better. Olds had a Delco distributor available with dual points. Looked stock and was real good. The dual points gave more coil saturation.
Rambling on and on about the old, Olds days…

 

Photos of never used Traction Masters for ’54-’56 Olds, found hanging back in the shop. Maybe put on my Chev truck. The u-bolt spacing is o.k.

 

sam the rail is looooooking wiiiicked ....jeffrey

 

seriously;I OWN a 1954 Oldsmobile,and i need those!!!

 

What a great thread! Thanks, Owen for bringing something new to the table.