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Flathead horsepower help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by jaden, Oct 12, 2010.

  1. buflochp
    Joined: Feb 22, 2005
    Posts: 177

    buflochp
    Member
    from Minnesota


    You sure got that right.

    What kind of times have you been getting, just curious?

    http://s201.photobucket.com/albums/aa2/buflochp/Hot Rod Drags/?action=view&current=drags064.mp4

    Buflochp
     
  2. EnglishBob
    Joined: Jan 19, 2008
    Posts: 1,029

    EnglishBob
    Member

  3. jaden
    Joined: Jul 3, 2008
    Posts: 36

    jaden
    Member

    I have that one and have been studying it like a bible.

    All the best to you in your build i'll have a look at the set up your going to run, i'll definatly add pete1 to my list of people to pester. Thanks for the input.

    Thanks Rocky thats too kind of you to offer your books to me, i had been holding off on buying books till i found out wich ones were the best and what information might just be on the internet. i have been having fun with it for sure now its just the matter of finding time to head home to work on it.


    well thats a releif, 25 dollars is not bad i had looked at a couple flathead books available through a local book store but they were pretty pricey at around three hundred dollars. i guess i better just look on line.

    i'll have to look him up, it may be a fellow i know of who has a side business selling flathead parts. I'll probably buy parts from him but not a whole engine. I would rater build it myself than buy one just because i like building and i guess its also a pride thing.
     
  4. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Bill Boomer's engine in that youtube video was built by Joe Abbin of RoadRunner Engineering in Albuquerque. I know, I was there the day that video was taken.
     
  5. R Pope
    Joined: Jan 23, 2006
    Posts: 3,309

    R Pope
    Member

    If you build a street driven flattie that blows off a 428 'Tang, we'll be buying YOUR book!
     
  6. jaden
    Joined: Jul 3, 2008
    Posts: 36

    jaden
    Member

    hello all, i have been looking into superchargers and i think i could swing that, i have also been looking into water meth injection too, i think that would be prefect with a supercharger, it would be period correct unlike nitrous. but what i need now is a parts list, new used and old. what are the best parts i can build find or buy?
     
  7. Jaden I have a 36PU with a Roadrunner 142 weind set up and have over 10k miles on it now, been goofing with flatties for 50 years, and about ten years ago I built this truck my first Blown flattie man what a difference thats the only way to go IMHO but remember now that flat=dollars and lots of them, I spent about 6k just on parts and lower end machine work for the last re build, and did all the work myself, the days of $250 rebuilds are over................

     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  8. Jimmy2car
    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 1,707

    Jimmy2car
    Member
    from No. Cal

    Don't get discouraged. Your goal is attainable, as Pete said. Continue to do as much research as you can. Look for some of the older books on Flatheads. There's more info in them than some might think. There is no single item that makes a flathead go fast. No magic bullet. It's always the combination. I watched three different flatheads on a dyno. Two of the three were not well thought out. The best was a very traditional build. It made 202 HP on 286 Cubic inches. For whatever reason, flatheads built today do not meet the HP developed in the fifties. Some secrets are still out there waiting for you. Keep looking. Find whatever info you can re the record holding Kloth flathead. 267 CI, approx 280 HP, NA on gas.
     
  9. Phucker
    Joined: Sep 12, 2010
    Posts: 185

    Phucker
    Member
    from Kansas

    I don't think I seen this covered, but admittedly I didnt go over the last posts word for word.

    The couple guys are thinking of the newer centrifugal superchargers that look like a turbo, without the exhaust, these type require a hat for the carbs, and push the air through them creating a pressure inside the carb, which can cause fits, they are best suited for injected motors.

    The supercharger aka blower that you would be using, and period correct, would be whats known as a roots style blower, it just draws air through the carbs, the only thing you would need to worry about is fuel, and how fast your driving, or under driving the blower, 8-10lbs of boost is usually safe on newer motors, but I don't have a clue about boosting flatheads myself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  10. kodiak light
    Joined: Oct 25, 2010
    Posts: 4

    kodiak light
    Member
    from wva

    350 chevy will fix that
     
  11. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,349

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado


    There's always one!:eek:
     
  12. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Good luck with your build.
     
  13. Rocket-Boy
    Joined: Jun 21, 2008
    Posts: 89

    Rocket-Boy
    Member

    i would say do as much research as you can, sit back read up get all the info you can. i belive a hp number is not that important, what you want is a crazy flathead so build one as crazy as you can afford and you have reached your goal. you have to pick your poisen and stick to it ... it will spiral out of controll though trust me. speed equiptment is like crack


    prehaps he has more taste than to run a chev :eek: .... thats going to rub some people up the wrong way.
     
  14. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,484

    tjm73
    Member

    How hard would it be to get 150-175 hp at the crank?
     
  15. Im all for development and experimentation, but have learned the following :

    i. Really ASK yourself what the REAL intended use of the car is.
    ii. Ask yourself/clarify the above AGAIN.
    iii. Once you have determined the above, then ask yourself how much you REALLY HAVE
    to spend (allow for "screw ups" in your learning curve).
    iv. Ask yourself how much power you REALLY need and how much your EGO needs? Also
    ask yourself how much you want to spend upgrading your drivetrain and fuel system
    to make/handle that power. Vintage parts BREAK.
    v. 2 97s on a blown FH are not blow through - they are a draw through set up.


    What this really is about the usage of the car.

    A NA peaky/hard winding FH is not really conducive to street manners - not impossible to do of course but are you getting where I'm coming from?

    As I said in my original post, build yourself a strong bottom end, run the car NA then when the $$$ allow you can safely add your blower/vintage induction.

    If you were building a race engine in a light race car and the rules stipulated NA, then Id say go for it.

    Its not just a matter of building the engine, its also the know how to maintain and EXTRACT all the available HP/TQ out of it that it was built to make. Im not trying to discourage you as any engine design can make decent HP/TQ and every engine has its design limitations. The FH Ford has had every trick thrown at it since 1932 and sure there are always new ways to do things but ultimately as any engineer will tell you - there ARE design limitations.

    So, the best way to 250/300HP is with a roots blower if you want to stay traditional.

    tjm73....150-175 is attainable with dtreetability. Do some research on the HAMB, there are heaps of threads that cover this.

    Rat
     
  16. jaden
    Joined: Jul 3, 2008
    Posts: 36

    jaden
    Member

    hello all, i have some progress to update, i bought an engine stand and now i'll have to make a bracket to mout it to the exhauts manifold bolts rather than the bell housing, I bought a couple books (flathead V-8 by oddo and How to Build Ford Flathead horsepower by Micnicholl) and have been scouring them. Although i have not really found much mor eon getting better performance in them. So far i have gathered that its the combination of parts that must work together as a good match but how do i know what parts work well together? Im not really looking to do a bunch of testing right now. Also of interest was a picture in oddo's book about a theoretical hemi combustion chamber that Ricardo came up with, i would love to make my own. It mentioned that i would improve flow and from other papers i have read on combustion chambre design and flame front/ pressure wave propegation it would work very well. The only down fall would be the low compression ratio. I figure i could cut out the steel heads and weld in some hemi domes and maybe supercharge to compensate for the low compression ratio? what do you guys think? Also i was wondering if anyone had a guess as to how much horse power gains in a NA flathead are made from the change in the combustion chamber? i also included some pictures form last weekend when i went home. Thanks.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    jaden<o:p></o:p>
     

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  17. jaden
    Joined: Jul 3, 2008
    Posts: 36

    jaden
    Member

    Hi Rat
    Sorry for the wait, the car is intended for the ocasional cruise but will be floged at the track just as much as it is driven on the road. As to home much Hp i really need, i would be happy with 150 but my ego would need about 700 at the wheels. Its not really a question of numbers for me or even about the final product i just like to tinker and am always interested on pussing the envelope to see what i can do. How drivable is the TQ/Hp curve on the 300Hp supercharged engine VS. the Na engine with 170Hp? As always the money is not such a big deal i`ll just figure out a way to do it cheaper. Thanks for you help.
    Jaden
     
  18. 19Fordy
    Joined: May 17, 2003
    Posts: 8,025

    19Fordy
    Member

    Jaden, buy one of Mark Kirby's all alum. big cube flatty's and go from there.
     
  19. Shaggy
    Joined: Mar 6, 2003
    Posts: 5,207

    Shaggy
    Member
    from Sultan, WA

    Flatheads are cheap, i dont pay much over free for them anymore and if i do they sure as shit better have a merc crank, building them is expencive though.

    I second what everyone else said, mabey pick up a second one and tinker on it in the corner of the shop while you enjoy the 150-175 hp of a warm flattie powered roadster, and when you get that one done, you can swap motors.

    For all out there are stuff that cost more money on a flattie than most motors, all over you can find cheap sbc heads with race valves, but on a flattie they need to be cut bigger in the block, porting it more difficult and you need to know what you are doing on Lhead stuff because it cuts into compression. Stroker cranks are Real pricy, and intakes are limited.

    I'm no expert, but If i was to do it on a budget and traditional, i'd take a stock aluminum manifold cut it up and weld a plate to put a 4-71 on. Lathe a SBC vertex mag to fit. Next a homemade mild relief job, merc crank and big bore. Lastly, carbs either 4 holley 2bbls or a holley 4bbl(they came out in '57)
     
  20. GMC BUBBA
    Joined: Jun 15, 2006
    Posts: 3,420

    GMC BUBBA
    Member Emeritus

    Good post with some good honest answers......
    Heres our Bonneville production pickup engine. Read the build took lots of work for 181 horsepower.
    Our new engine we are trying for 200 horsepower, bigger everything !! $$$$

    www.gasolinealleyshops.org
     
  21. BulldawgMusclecars
    Joined: Jul 15, 2010
    Posts: 508

    BulldawgMusclecars
    Member

    Thats the irony of it all...spending 3 times more to replicate something that people began pulling out in droves as soon as "modern" OHV V-8s began hitting the junkyards. I love tradition as much as anyone, but if you really want 300hp AND a car you can actually drive and afford to build, a flathead is the wrong choice.
    You don't have to go Flathead to stay traditional...there are tons of choices that will make the HP you want, without going broke or having a finicky "race" engine that will get its doors blown off by the average soccer mom's minivan. I'd put the Flathead on a stand, detail it out, and use it for a display piece, and find another engine. No offense to guys who push the envelope with Flatheads, I still think they are very cool, but I'm more about going fast than just installing an engine for looks or someone else's version of "Tradition".
     
  22. Actually I have built a few flatties. 300 hp is attainable but it is also like that carrot on the stick, its not a screw together motor and I wouldn't expect it running off the shelf parts.

    You are going to need to do things to help it like change the rod angle [there are a couple of ways to do that], figure out a way to get plenty of mix into and out of the cylinders [major porting and relieving], lighten everything to the max, beef the lower end so that it will handle the revs that you will need to turn, a custom ground cam shaft [Isky can handle that chore for you].

    If you are going to run it on the street you will want to run the deepest gear that you can find this naturally aspirated engine is not going to want to run a low RPMs.

    I may want to look for one of Navarro's 4bbl intakes instead of running a brace of stromburgs. But I don't know that I can tell you when he produced his first one so it may not fit your '55 only build.

    For a '55 build you do not want a back yard build you want someting that would have been built by one of the masters. Even most of the true race cars back then were not whacking out 300 ponies except on POP and they expected their engines to grenade on a regular basis.

    But to answer your question there was an indy engine that had on barrel per cylinder in the later '50s so I guess that 4-2s or 6-1s and a 2 is what you are after.
     
  23. HEATHEN
    Joined: Nov 22, 2005
    Posts: 8,556

    HEATHEN
    Member
    from SIDNEY, NY

    For what it's worth, Navarro 4 bbl intakes were around in '55, so that would be "correct". As Bulldawg said, there are other traditional choices if you've got your heart set on 300 hp......a 324 Olds comes to mind.
     
  24. jaden
    Joined: Jul 3, 2008
    Posts: 36

    jaden
    Member

    Thanks everyone for posting here, i am definatly taking everything you say into consideration. I also have an update to share, i just bought an old GMC 471 blower to put on my engine. I'll post some pictures real soon, but its in pretty good shape just a couple nicks in the rotors and real dirty. I may have over paid for it i got it for 350 but around here everyone elese wanted 400 firm so i guess thats just the going rate up here. i have some more books on the way so ill have a look at them and see what else i can pick up. I have been looking but im not finding to much in the way of step by step instructions for a nice electronic set up for a blown flathead, anyone got any suggestions or links in mind? Thanks.
    Jaden
     
  25. jaden
    Joined: Jul 3, 2008
    Posts: 36

    jaden
    Member

    HI Heathen i know the 4 barrel would be the way to go for practicality but i just love the look of a few strombergs and i already have them, i figure 6 of them should do ontop of the blower.

    Hi porknbeaner, i have been looking into shortening the rod, but im not to sure what effects this will have in a blown engin any thoughts?

    I see what your saying but im not all that interested in having another ohv engine i have them but a flathead is something i dont have. I guess i just want one of everthing:rolleyes:


    Shaggy i wish i lived where you do i still find some things in farmers fields for free but most of it is ruined by now and the guys who have the useable stuff are not about to let it go for cheep or at all.
     
  26. Indeed!
     
  27. moefuzz
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 4,950

    moefuzz
    Member

    You should be thinking about torque and not about horse power.

    Flatheads are torque motors due to the heavy rotating mass of flywheel and crank.

    It's torque that will throw you back in the seat when shifting gears.

    And a 200 hp Flathead will have gobs of torque.

    As others have stated, Get Joe Abbins recent book and all will be revealed.
    You'll be able to make down to earth judgments on what to expect and how to accomplish it.



    .




    .
     
  28. jaden
    Joined: Jul 3, 2008
    Posts: 36

    jaden
    Member

    well i'll have a hand in building the 428 mustang so i could just sabatoge it, dose that count?;)
     
  29. bobscogin
    Joined: Feb 8, 2007
    Posts: 1,771

    bobscogin
    Member

    Assuming you could even get 200 hp at, say, 5000 RPM, that's 210 pounds/ft of torque. For comparison, a 230 Chevy 6 makes 215 pounds/ft at only 2000 RPM. I've owned a couple, and I don't ever recall getting thrown back in the seat. :D

    Bob
     
  30. jaden
    Joined: Jul 3, 2008
    Posts: 36

    jaden
    Member

    ok so im having some difficulties posting the pictures, bear with me.
     

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