Cut Johnny some slack on this one, he has had "issues" with BMW's. LOL! Its off-topic for this board, but quite a story! If I were him, I would have a life-long resentment against beemers and automotive journalists too.
i like that a manual trans is key to a nicer street experience, im going to be running A injected 331 small block, manual trans and 4.88 in the rear. The old enderles are nice because the injectors screw in on the inside of the manifold. I had a set but they were way to big for my little inch small block
While a necessity for runnin' the blower, seems to me you'd be a happier camper with a lil more static squeeze than 8:1s in them-there holes. Is the Hilborn set-up going onto a different shortblock? BTW, I still have my Roach T..."Injection is fine, but I'd rather be BLOWN!" EDIT: Or are you converting the blower from carbs to a two/four-holer?!
Without having an accelerator pump to supply the needed fuel, like a carb.. The manual trans lets you pedal and manipulate the RPMs a little easier. Moving the injectors to the top of the stacks, also eases some of the pain. I had a small 1 7/8" Enderle injector (still had the malt can stacks) But I'm building a 408 SBC. It would work on the 400, but I wouldn't win any races, as he put it. Talking with ALKYDIGGER cleared a lot of things up. I traded him the early injector & $ for the 2 5/8" I have now. Kitchen told me he wouldn't help me get my 55 running with the MFI, unless it was STICK.
I'm going to give my Y-Block Hilborn a try on my '57 T-Bird "Battlebird" with the EXPERT help of Ted Kempgens (of the Billy Burkes Bellytank fame). I have a complete setup of the only 141 Y-Block Hilborns that were made. In '57 after trying Superchargers and then Superchargered-Fuel Injection (would love to see a picture of that!), they settled on FI and did an un-official 204 mph on THE BEACH in '57! Doing mine as the one "Fireball" Roberts drove a 24 Hour race at Daytona in '58 and placed 4th in. I don't expect a whole lot of street usage as it won't be a "Parade Car", but Teddy promises all around "good" performance and he has ALWAYS delivered in the past. Some pics of the car which is farther along now with the 312 & headers in and running ( with a 2 barrel for now)with the exhaust out the sides as on the original "Battlebirds". Have correct wheels & tires ready to go on it. Next is the Headrest, Tonneau and rear bumper cover/replacement and gauges-cluster. Will keep you updated.
Haha, I keep forgetting those Y- blocks had the intake ports flipped on their side. When I first looked at these I thought you had it bolted on wrong... Cool project! Sorry for the huge pic...it wasn't that big when I copied the address......
When you referred to my posting about "the article" I didn't realize you were talking about one in Popular Hot Rodding. (You attached it to a later post). I was actually referring to one in Hot Rod for September 1986. I couldn't make out the date of the PHR story but i'd like a copy if you could. I'd like to compare the two.
Here's what i would do if i were hardcore about mechanical fuel injection on the street (but i'm not due to money and time constraints). 1) Spend 2 days with this guy. He will "train" you on rochester mfi system. http://www.jerrybramlett.net/index.html 2) i'm sure the 8 injector stacks could be "adapted" to fit onto the top of the ramjet's doghouse. Or, i suppose, you could use the hilborn/kinsler manifold and adapt the rochester parts to it? So, this doesn't directly answer the question, but i think it does offer a solution towards running mechanical fuel injection with the hilborn/8 stack look on the street with no problems and you'll probably get better mpg than a carb to boot.....maybe.
Or you could fork out the bucks for a Lucas PFI unit, which works excellent at all speeds; but is way too expensive for most of us.
X2...I use them for racing and they're very difficult to get any idle quality out of let alone part throttle. They are really set up for Methanol and gas creates another issue for the idle circuit and mechanical pump. Convert to EFI if you really want street quality driving but that is really expensive. The few that have run them on the street are the one-in-a-million guys. THE biggest issue with used systems is the throttle blades will each be slightly bent from use (and a heavy foot) and this creates an nasty air bleed issue at idle and part throttle. Earl Gearte (Gearte Racing Engines) is THE EXPERT on Hilbourn systems and will tell you a few of the issues you are facing. Happy motoring !!
novadude, the best so far 9.88, got more ci this year. As far as tuning goes, I made 1 pill change on the main all summer, that was a 95 degree day at marion county raceway. Other than that, I did not change anything else and the car ran very consecutive numbers. Its just not the "nitemare" its made out to be. Stack injector on gas users, try some q-16 oxenated fuel. You will be pleasently suprized what manifold temp does, AND et's. You will wipe frost off the manifold at the end of the run, just like alky. The higher the stacks/injectors, the better the preformance. My 2 cents John
John, Interesting point. On alky with the sprint injectors, we try to get the nozzle as close to the head of the intake valve as possible (long nozzles, DOWN nozzles, etc.). This has been shown time and again to build more torque. Longer stacks seem to work in the same way. Now the Can-Am engines (gasoline) I have worked on and been around have the injectors placed much higher, even at the top of the stacks in some cases, but they all figure cutting the stacks down gives more top end... Something in the volume of fuel being injected on the alky engines maybe?
Like you said, once you get your pill size figured out, thats 1/2 the battle! And you have to never forget, its a gas line running into a tube with butterflys, nothing more, nothing less. Made for Hauling Ass! I made several setups with a mechanical accelerator pump in the center of all the tubes with a set of brass squirters....worked really well. was a bugger for fabricate....on way spring loaded ball valve, sealing the tube around the squirter....alot of machine work, with very satisfying results.... Hilbourn injectors are also sensitive to fuel pressure, quality of fuel (only likes certain types as a couple of poeple here have found out) With no dedicated idle circuit....I had the squirters where it'd dribble a little....mine would idle just fine....for a while that is....whenever the motor tryed to go too low, pressure would drop in fuel-line, dribble would be affected, vaccuum would change....and die. They just take some tinkering....but theres a few folks out there thats made them work..... Theres also a little trick of getting a really small drill bit and drilling a air bleed on the butterflys....idle her up a little....you can kinda see where that is going..... Just figured I'd throw that one out there....heehee....
Man you guys are quitters!!! Yes it can be done you just need to think. Nothing against Johnny Rotten's way but there is a simpler easier way. Johnny great job by the way sticking to what you want to do. Mechanical fuel injection works around the priciple of volume and pressure. Both the volume and pressure are determined by orrifices that return "not needed" fuel to the tank. In my experience there two ways to make MFI streetable. The first is like Johnny's with a surge tank and a dial-a-jet. This way is needed for most applications where fuel is tranfered from a rear mounted tank. In order to not load up at lights you lean out the jet on the dial and the exces fuel is returned to your surge tank not directly to your rear tank. Some surege tanks use holley float bowls to control volume in the tank. Kinslers vapor seperator set up is similar. The next and easiest way is to make your STREET driven injection system into a multi circuit system. You order a set of port injection nozzel bodies with springs and check valves and place them in your hat or injection system. Port injection is not needed on the street. Example: They come in 15, 30 pound, and custom. You can also work with them by shimming the springs. Open your front nozzels to a larger size so the engine is ideling off two nozzels. then remove one line and nozzel from the injector. taylor the spring till it comes in when you want IE: run the motor with a tach handy so you can see when the fuel comes in. Do this progresssively till you get to full throttle. By the way do this in gear up on jack stands. This does take some time as you will have to taylor it to your application but once done you use a pump loop and a main jet to tune your car. Also invest in a priming system so you can prime the engine from inside the car. Check here.http://www.goodvibesracing.com/fuel_injector_priming_components.htm
From my main gas tank in the rear, I'm using an electric fuel pump. That goes to the Holley fuel resevoir, which controls the fuel level in the Moon tank. The spun aluminum tank, keeps the manual engine driven pump, fed. That goes to the metering block, where I have a blank block off pill(which came from Enderle). The single bypass coming out of the metering block, goes to my Kinsler Pill quick change & returns to the aluminum tank up frt. I drove to Enderle to pick up my pump(80A 0), after they restored it & flowed it. I was given a starting point, as to which pills I needed. I ordered them from Hilborn, cos' Kinlser pills are expensive. I have been to the Hilborn factory, too! Very cool, indeed! They're info was invaluble, and both told me it wouldn't work on the street. But we all know, you can!
Alky digger can set you up for the street with everything you need for that set-up. His name is Mike and his e-mail address is www.Alkydigger.com He also has a video of a small block chevy with hilborn on youtube. try www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiGFRd rYC4 If that dosent work go on E-bay and look up Chevy Hilborn injection. He advertises on there every day. He is out of Nashville,Tenn. Phone 615-483-6830
Iam using a kinsler set up had issues at start up talked with kinsler not too helpful !!mike @ alkkey digger help with one phone call, i do use alcohol wont use gas anymore. no heat issues when its a 100 degress @ track or cruise.9/18 @ 144, mph
i work on sprints and midgets, and plan on running a mechanical set up on the street in my T. Not sure about your car but if the fuel tank is mounted higher than the pump it should help with starting. If your tank is low a belt or cable driven pump will allow you to place the pump low and be gravity fed. I would also chassis dyno. engine dyno will get you in the ball park, but chassis is better on driveablity issues. Then you can hit the streets and keep tuning lol. Lots of tuning, but possible. I have generally found (but not always) that higher placed nozzles help taking off in low rpm and lower nozzles (in the head) are better for high rpm peak power. I think the reason most people say it can't work on the street is due to the large amount of drag racers in hot rodding. This isn't meant as a put down, it's just not a lot of part throttle is used compared to oval track racing.
I'm in the process of cleaning up our old race car and plan on converting a new old stock Hilborn manifold to efi. I don't care for the fuel log look and I understand there is a way to plumb the injectors individually. Since this unit like new (never been on an engine), I'd like to avoid any welding that could change how well the butterflies seat. With that in mind I intend to make screw-on adaptors for the injectors. The plan is to bore holes in each runner for the injectors, and attach the adapters with small diameter machine screws. I have read that the original injector ports are a good source of manifold vacuum and then take it off of the barrel valve body. I'll start a new thread once I get started.
every time this subject comes up i wounder why you couldn't mount your injectors remotely and run hoses from them, if your converting to EFI, maybe you would only need two big ass diesel injectors?
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