Looking for a Valve Seat/Guide machine. Any real Flathead machinist out there, what machine are you using for replacing seats on the Flathead? Brand and model of machine only please. I'm not looking for P.M.'s to buy your equipment, I want a starting point to research what's best for my shop's needs. Bruce Lancaster any advice? Thank you.
Look for a Winona PH-2000 and you'll be good to go! Actually had a couple of these until recently, sold one about a year or two back! It would need the gear box that fits on the top (for slower speeds) to do the seats on the flathead! Some of these older machines are missing this component! It's really a "universal" type machine. We still do a number of these "Flatties" and it's for this reason only that I decided to keep the last one I have here! The fully adjustable cradle supports the weight of the block easily! You may be able to find the adjustable seat (insert) cutters as well with the 7/16" arbors! Don't use any 3/8" arbors if possible, you'll have control issues! Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. You should be able to locate one of these machines for "peanuts", most have been replaced by newer, more efficient, units!
I live in a low-tech world...1950's Snap on/Black and Decker stuff with the original pilot guide spindle for flatheads. Seat grinder and valve grinder. That guide part and the stones and such are still readily available. In a higher tech world, one might copper plate and press in the guides and use a common guide. That stuff is now probably off the map in the world of Serdis and such... Did my first flathead valve job as a teenager, using about $5 worth of JC Whitney hand tools (little 45 degree cutter that held emery paper, the olde rubber cup on a stick, etc.). I had no real contact with anyone competent or knowledgable, so I followed the instructions in a 1916 vintage fix your car book and those in Page's Model A book...I had no idea that anything like a proper seat grinder existed, and it didn't matter because I couldn't afford squat. Yes, it ran fine! The beauty of the old B&D is that they are common and affordable, so you can do your own seats and take your time. On a flathead that is close to stock, accuracy is going to be limited ultimately by the screwy guide setup. A race engine would have plated guides semi-permanently installed for a more modern approach.
Thank you Bruce, I'm with you on the low-tech valve seat "grinding". I'm primarily looking for suggestions for a good old MADE IN USA, machine to "replace" valve seats. The issue with a Flathead V8 is that the Seat/Guide machine must be able accomodate the actual weight and mass of the block, and not just the cylinder head as in a OHV engine. You also have to have enough travel in the vertical of the machines head stock. Proper gearing to allow a slow enough cutting speed is just as important as well. Once we get the old seats cut out, and new seats installed, then we can cut the angles with the old B&D stones if you like, Thank you again, TR.
If sticking with stock or slight oversize...I think all the stock inserts I have encountered have been good with only light cuts! A flathead block would look pretty scary to something like a serdi, though... What sort of guides are you going to be using? That ends up being another controlling factor...and of course is a bit vague in a stocker. Using a plated press fit ends the vagueness there, and if it is nailed down against rotation the top of the guide can be utilized some in shaping the exit from bowls...
The Winona I mentioned above will do EVERY aspect of the procedures you will be needing done! It will allow the inserts to be installed, any size, stock or for large valves, it will allow machining for the o'size valves, it will be able to open the "throats", and with the correct cutters can finish the valve job easily! The totally adjustable cradle will allow for any minute leveling! This type head machine becomes mandatory to get the best job possible on the Flatheads! Newer style machines will not do one of these blocks, I know, I have one specific for heads only! You have the option of using "standard" pilots or the ones specific to the Flatheads. See some photos below! I have a shot of the cradle and speed-reducer for the machine and 2 actual Flathead pilots. I choose to not use the pilots as I use the original guides along with the conventional pilots! The "body" of the pilots come in plus and minus sizes". Without this type machine, being in business, you really cannot do seats in a reasonable time frame and make a profit! It WILL do a "dead-on" job all around! I use this machine only for the Flathead seats/valve work. Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. Here's a few shots of the head machine and the Flattie pilots!
How old is the thing?? I'm assuming that nothing modern has the capacity required! I suspect most modern machinests would be seriously taken aback by EVERYTHING about a flathead valve system!
No Serdi's here Bruce. That's exactly why I'm asking here on the forum, what is the preferred machine currently used. Quite honestly, I'm currently working on development of a new type of main cap/girdle arrangement. That's about as much as I can say at this point in time. When I need a mental break, I just start thinking/planning ahead. As you can imagine, there are so many deals right now with shops folding left and right. I dont want to purchase a machine that wont fit my future needs. My future purchase MUST have the capability to handle the Flathead V8 Ford engine. TR
Hi Bruce, not many shops in my area can or want to do the Flatheads anymore. I've been doing them a very long time! This is why I decided to not sell this tool until I retire (which is coming close)! I bought that very machine (in the photo) from Winona brand new around 1974/1975. Don't recall the exact date, but it was new at the time! It's a highly versatile piece of equipment and serves me well still! Basically speaking it's really nothing more than a very large drill press. (Add) TR: it will go as low as 38 RPM. More than adequate for most machining including the seats (valve job). Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. I enjoy doing these Flatheads, and a few other "odd-balls". I have a "Nailhead" running in a Henry-J up in Mass. Back in 1993 I had been working with a close friend of mine on a "Tuned-Port" setup for the Flattie, he passed away before we worked it out! I had been doing 15 builds per year for him at the time, every one a Flathead!
Wow! and..."My future purchase MUST have the capability to handle the Flathead V8 Ford engine. TR " That sounds good...and the future may well BE the past, as modern production seems to be dropping new parts below the cost of decent machine work!
This is the machine I use also, It will do just about anything. I thought I would mention that it uses any 375 - 3/8 based pilot so it can be used with B&D flathead pilots. I had a group of guys in the shop last year from I think Sweden & 2 of them had worked at the factory that built the machine for Winona, they handed me their camera & they gathered around it and I took a pic for them.
I have a tool that bolts onto the deck surface of the flathead block and cuts the block for a hardened seat, i used it a few times at work and when we closed i bought it, ill dig it out and take some pics you could basically use it on any block or head you can bolt it to. jeff
There were at least 2 made, I think Quick Way made one but the KO Lee was the king in portable seat cutters. KO Lee is still around and you can get replacement parts still (as of 2 years ago) I have the master set with all the pilots, including most all the flatheads. I also have the optional power driver for it. It's labor intensive but will do a good job in the hands of someone who wants to take the time & is not in a rush. Van
I use a kwickway model m seat installer,It mounts to the deck surface and uses a 3/8 or 1/2 inch drill.It reduces speed and sets depth of cutter and is a no brainer to use. I have also used it on vintage harley stuff with great results. A piolit that goes through the guide boss and locates in the lifter bore is a must for seat work,goodson still offers them but are a little pricy. If i am replacing a seat from over servicing or excessive pitting i try to tig weld the inner portion of the seat on the inside with a small bead and watch the seat fall out.then replace it with the same insert. Another fine tool for flathead work is a toleto hall seat refacer. By far the nicest finish i have ever seen with a stone. The kwickway seat tool used is around 700 to 800 depending on the amount of cutters it comes with. It uses standard seat cutters so you can use it with other equipment you may have.A big plus is all these tools can be used for in car servicing as well and are verry accurite in use. Hope this helps,Gary
I want to thank all you gentleman for the suggestions, information, and insight. All very much appreciated, any others, please feel free to chime in, thank you again, TR
Stay away from the "019" head shop, not a real good item. Owned a new one back when, kept it for about 3 months and "offed" it! Replaced it with the Winona. I have a few more shots (below) of a Flathead 8BA block mounted on the Winona PH2000, one showing the finished machined section for the valve seat insert ready for pressing in place, and the other shows one finished valve seat! Thanks, Gary in N.Y. P.S. It's like I stated back on the original post, this particular machine is about as versatile as a machine can be! There are no new "dedicated" head machines that I know of that will handle the Flatheads! They may exist, but I don't know of any!
I will be doing primarily older vintage stuff, flat heads, nail heads etc, but I also drag race a low ten second 56 Chevy Gasser. Will the winona handle my needs as far as a good valve job for high performance purposes? Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
For those interested, I recently started a group in yahoo because I didn't know how else to get this information out on the Hall-Toledo aka Hall Manufacturing Company Toledo Ohio. The purpose of starting this group was to provide the free flow of information pertaining to Hall products. I have uploaded several manuals in PDF form as well as other items of interest. This group is not just limited to the EJ seat grinder but to all Hall products. Hope to see you! https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hall-toledo_groupurl/info Regards, Jack (Moderator Hall-Toledo Group)
How does the flathead block get mounted in a PH-2000? Is there a different cradle needed? Does it sit on the table directly? How is the tilt and axis functions handled? I am currently looking for seat and guide machine but cannot see how the block would mount up in the fixture normally seen with the Winona machine. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Hey Petel, Are you still able to cut in new valve seats in flatheads? I have a 53 Mercury so it has never had hard seats and I'm having a hard time finding someone to cut them in. Thanks , Tim
Tim what's the condition of the existing seats? Do you have enough left to get a good "lap"? Do you have enough to grind/cut the seats for a valve job? I personally would not go with hardened seats unless the block seats are damaged beyond repair. These are low compression engines. There is really no need for hardened seats. This is not the main reason though..... Qualified people that work on these engines are few and far between. These hardened seats have been known to come out and wreck an engine. If you can restore what you have, that would be wonderful and my first choice. If not, you have to find a machinist/shop that really knows these.
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