Technical Custom building a 4-53 Street Blower

I'm at work in North Dakota, but will be home next week. I'll pm you the info.

I'll be shooting for abot 6lbs boost, on a Caddy flathead.

 

WOW! Nice machine work and it would look tits on the desoto..good luck and keep us posted on this...no matter what it goes on its gonna be mean looking.

 

Thanks, Big Tony. We are getting more excited about this project by the day. This thing is going to look sick when it's finished!

It may take some time to get this thing done, but we are making progress. I'm not in a hurry. I just want to take our time and do this thing up right...

So far, we got the bottom end of the intake manifold just about done on the MDF model. I'm talking about the mounting flanges that bolt to both heads, and the intake runners. The way it stands at the moment, the manifold will be a modular design. It will primarily consist of two sets of intake runners for the right and left banks, the plenum, the coolant manifold block for the thermostat, and the blower adapter plate that mates the blower to the plenum.

We want to keep everything as short as possible. We currently have the runners at 3 1/2 inches from the heads to the bottom of the plenum. While looking at the height of the thing yesterday, I think we may be able to drop this down a little more to maybe 2 1/2 or 3 inches. I guess it depends on what we come up with for the coolant ports and thermostat housing. We may have to plumb it with some AN lines to the thermostat housing. It's going to be tight, but I think we can do it. The coolant block will probably bolt somewhere on the bottom front of the plenum. We still need to play around with it a bit before we can determine the final location.

We are going to run an old Crysler Petronics dual point distrubuter. It's small enough to give us the room we need. However, it looks like I might have to put a half moon cut out in the back of the plenum to allow for enough clearance.

Since the 4-53 does not have any bolt flanges on the sides of the case, I had to come up with a way to actually bolt that part of the blower to the adapter flange to ensure a proper seal. Originally, the front and rear bearing plates had thru holes for bolting it down. Those plates will still have holes but, they will just be threaded at the bottom along with a couple of locating dowels. The screws will go up thru the bottom of the adapter plate. The fasteners will be flat-head screws. The case will have cross bolts that come in from the side of the case and screw into several tabs that are machined on the top of the adapter plate. The tabs double as locater keys and fastening points for the case. Fastening the case in this manner should increase the strength and reduce case distortion.

I will cover more of the design later when I feature the assembly of the blower here. That way everyone will understand how it goes together and why.

 

Why did you feel it was necessary to build new innards for your blower? Zora Arkus-Duntov used a stock 4-53 on a 265 in '55 and had no reliability issues.

 

There were several reasons that prompted me to build new inards. As you probably already know, the 4-53 has bearingless directly oiled rotor shafts. I wanted to eliminate that fact with this build and convert it to use bearings.

I didn't want to have to use pressurized engine oil to lubricate the unit or even have an external oiling source. This would eliminate some of the potential problems of oil leaks, blockages, and excess heat, and oil contamination introduced into the intake charge.

The shaft diameters are a non-standard size of 0.859 diameter. They were also worn in the plate bore areas. I wanted to ensure bearing availability. Its hard to find a bearing in that size. So, I made the new shafts with at a .866 bearing diameters.

However, I was goings to remove the shafts and have them hard chromed and reground. In order to do this, it would be necessary to separate the parts for hard chroming and regrinding. I didn't want to try re-welding them because of fear of warpage especially in the spline area. I also couldn't get them apart. The pins were removed. The parts where soaked in pentetrating oil for two weeks. The rotors where heated and we attempted to press the shafts out on a hydraulic press with no luck. This is most likely do to corrosion of dissimilar metals as well as the press fit.

Making new shafts also corrected some problems with rotor end-play when converting it to use bearings. The new rotors were also made with a tighter clearance at the tips. No teflon needed. The rotors will also be more serviceable in the future in part because of the annodized finish they will receive that will include the shaft bores. It will make them easier to remove from the shafts by reducing some of the corrosion problems.

Besides, it will be a one-off custom nobody has that I made myself. Who can even say that?

 

Fuck yeah! This is outstanding!

 

What he said !!

Great stuff - makes me wish I had a similar machine and KNEW how to use the bloody thing !!

Rat

 

Yeah, I wish I had a couple of those CNCs in my garage. Just like the ones I run at the shop. I could get things done a lot quicker. I could also do a lot of side work for people without being impaired.

I have a few friends that have manual mills. One of them has a lathe also. So, there is always a possibility of doing small jobs for people.

Anyways, to further my answer of why I built new guts for my blower. There wasn't a question of reliability. It is a matter of conversion, modification, adaptation, and customization.

I also wanted to do sort of a cook book with this build leaving virtually no stone left unturned. Well, with the exception of making the case from scratch for this unit, it would cover a complete machine job. It would give plenty of information for someone who is willing to follow in my footsteps to go by.

 

Hmm... It must be a coincidence. I've been searching around for stuff on the web about the 4-53 blower for a while. Not much has come up about people refurbishing or rebuilding them for hot-rodding much intil now. At least they haven't been advertising as such.

There is a company offering these units converted for sale. They have some pictures of them up on their website along with a price. I think they were asking just under 1500 bones for a 4-53. They even offer a 6-53 and a 6v-53 version as well.

I guess they are still working on a final 4-53 version. Although they look pretty cool right now, they still don't look as good as mine will. Of course, I'm kind of basis at the moment.

It appears that they made the front cover and front bearing plate use the same bolt holes. So, everything is sandwiched together like the original 4-53 design. The rear bearing plate uses the standard design like most units have. I also noticed something about their design in the pics they have that puzzles me. How the heck do you bolt the sucker down to the intake? Maybe they will reveal that in their proclaimed updates...

The plates on my unit have newer features than the original design, but they do have throw-backs. They are similar in size and functionality, but the front bearing plate doesn't use the same bolt holes for the front cover. Both front and rear plates are the same thickness of 1 1/2 inches like the originals as well. I decided to retain the thickness to allow more surface area for a dual carb plate, and the fact that you can still bolt the unit down at bottom of the bearing plates.

I haven't figure a total price for my build, but I'll bet I will still save a lot of money building the thing myself. It will include everything minus the pulleys and the belt. They are pricing just for the unit by itself and not everything else that goes along with it.

 

Very cool! I have a new 4-53 that has been waiting for the right engine to mount it on. Might end up on my brothers Flatty or my A Banger down the road.

 

Lots of 4/54 threads here if you search. do an advanced search and use my user name and they will pop up.

 

That's not exactly what I was trying to say. I know there are threads on here about the 4-53. What I was taking about was 4-53s being rebuilt and converted for the street by a company not by people like us.

But thanks for advanced search tip, Tman. I didn't even bother with that before.

BTW, since we are here on the subject. Did you ever get your 4-53 to work on your flatty? I didn't read that far into the threads...

 

Oops. Sorry Tman, I didn't read your post before the last one. I went directly to the last page of this thread. I thought you may have already got your 4-53 up and running.

If you got any questions, comments, or technical information you would like to share, please feel free to post them here. I'm always open to suggestions.

 

It's always nice to read a post about a cool build. Well written, clear in thought and covering a subject I know nothing about. Of course the topic is above my pay grade, heady shit to be sure. Of course the question remains...why and BadBlownMotor answers with his own style of why not. Even it a high tech world the problem started out because the blower didn't use bearings and the shaft was a odd size, that I can relate to square pegs and round holes...story of my life too.
Good luck

 

No worries, my brother may get to run it on his flatty down the road. Both of our cars are under construction and ElPolacko got me hooked on turbos so.............

 

Very cool

 

Wow. that's some serious do-it-yourself ambition there.

Have you started on the manifold for this yet?

 

@ Tman

That's very cool. If you need help with your 4-53 later on, you know where to look. I would be happy to help you out. After all, that's why I'm doing this thread.

I was also thinking about doing a turbo motor for my Monte Carlo project. It was originally going to be a 550 hp supercharged 406 SBC build, but a friend had turned me on to turbos as well. Not sure which way I will actually go with the build yet. I do have a Motown race ready small block sitting in my garage right now. I have to wait and see because money is tight for me right now. So, in the mean time I'm helping my friend out with his Desoto project.

@ Hudsoncustom

I haven't had a chance to get back to work on the MDF model of the intake manifold this past week. Life has a way of doing that sometimes.

I hope to get back to it early next week. I don't think it will be much longer before we finish it up the model. I would like to get some pics posted up here of it soon... Then its off to cutting the aluminum stock, TIG welding, and machining.

The recent down time has afforded me to rethink the design a bit though. Nothing major. Just some minor changes mostly in the adapter plate area.


Be patient guys. I'm dying to get her done myself...

 

What carbs are you running? You model a top plate yet?

 

Well, actually I'm not sure what the decision is currently. I was leaving that part last on the list. Falcon Bob has to tell me what he wants because it's his motor that the blower is going on. He said he would like to keep it as vintage as possible, but I guess it's also what ever we can make work too. I do know he was talking about two fours. You know what? I'll get back to you on that one. I know he's got at least a half dozen different carbs sitting around over there. So, will see what he says.

 

I just took a peek again at the website for the company who is converting the 4-53 blowers. http://www.fordflathead.com/6-53_6v53_4-53_blower.html

I'm impressed. Very nice job they are doing. Most of the features seem to be very close to what I'm doing with my build.

Here is a basic comparision by what I've read about their conversion vs. mine in this thread.

Simularities:

1. We both are using 5/16 bolts for the front cover. Except I'm using more of them. I'm also using stainless steel thread inserts in the holes.

2. Large site glass

3. Heavy duty bearings rated for 10,000 rpms.

Differences:

1. They reground the stock rotor shafts to possibly .8125 diameter at the ends to except standard bearing. My shafts are new 4150 steel at .8661 (22mm) in diameter at the ends and .9842 (25mm) thru the rotors. This allows a much larger shoulder for the inner bearing race to ride against. Actually, the bearing manufacturer recommends at least a 26 mm at a shoulder, but it was a comprimise. I didn't want to make the rotor bore wall to thin in the valley area between the rotor lobs. I wanted have as much meat as possible in that area for the locking pin holes. My shafts are also much stronger and more ridgid. I've also shaved some weight which is approximately 4.5 lbs total in the rotor assembly. I could possibly shave even more.

2. I left both bearing plates the same size to allow for more support and strength as well as surface area for a dual carb plate to over lap on. The carb plate will be able to bolt to the top of the case as well bearing plates. This will help tie the unit altogether and reduce some of the case flexing and twisting.

3. My bearing retainers will use six bolts instead of the standard three. This allows for more even clamping pressure around the outer bearing race.

4. I've incorporated a rear bearing thrust washer for the inner bearing race.

5. Plated gears. This may be a good idea for longer gear life and lubrication. I may consider this in my build. My gears are just black oxided.

6. Annodizing. Most of my aluminum parts will recieve this as a finish.

7. Not sure if they are incorporating this in their version, but my front cover will have a oil drain plug and a pressure relief valve installed.

8. Although they haven't specified on their conversion, I will be using 3/8 bolts and dowels to fasten my blower to the adapter plate. Four bolts and 2 dowels on the front and rear plates. Not sure yet on the case.

9. Theirs: Neopreme Seals. Mine: I'm using teflon seals rated at 35 psi and 450 degrees max temp for a 25mm diameter.


I'm sure there is probably more similarities and differences, but it does give me a little more confidence with my project. I'm not an expert but, I can say I believe I'm definately on track with my build. Like I said, I'm always open for suggestions.

 

Interesting link, thanks.

 

Boy, do I feel really stupid!!! I went back to the website (link above) and looked at their information about blower measurements. Wow! I found out that my blower is actually a 6v53 long bore version. Not knowing the size of these blowers I took someones word for it and thought mine was a 4-53.

My case dimensions measure at 5.750 x 13.100 which is the excact dimensions for a 6v53 long bore. 209 CID displacement!

Well, its not all bad I guess after my embrassement. Bigger is always better in this case! More fuel/air means more power especially at lower Rpms.

So, If you read this, just know that your reading about a 6v53 Long Bore! Once again, sorry for my misinformation.

 

Once again, sorry for the mess up on the blower. Well, this mess up came out to be a really good one though...

My 6v53 blower case:



We should be resuming work on the model of the intake this week. Hopefully, this evening will be productive. I've already found quite a bit of scrap aluminum stock at the shop that we can use. That should cheapen up the build a bit. I just need to get a few more pieces and we should be good for materials.

*** I will be making some fixes and changes in this thread to address the mix up.

 

We are just about finished with the MDF blower intake model for the 291 Desoto. We just need to make a mock up adapter plate and double check the distributer clearance and the over all plenum dimensions. I must say, we are very pleased with our efforts so far. The intake seems to have the proper scale and dimension, but there is always room for improvement most of which can be addressed in the actual build.

Once we are satisfied with everything, I will begin fabricating the actual intake from aluminum, but I would like to get a few more opinions before hand. I should have a photo of the wood model to post here by sometime early next week.

 

Cool.

 

Hey, Tman. I asked Falcon Bob about the carbs. He said he's got a set of 4150 Holleys that he just rebuilt that he would like to run. He still needs to get the linkage for them. So, I will pattern the carb plate as such.

I wonder if a tri-power setup would like good sitting on top?

 

Hey BadBlownMotor, just wanted to say nice work on what you are doing on the blowers. Lain Murphy here and I own Murphy's Blowers. The ones you see on www.fordflathead.com

Just was checking out the forum, havent been here in a while. Just to clarify a couple of things on the blowers I build. The blowers bolt down to adaptor plates that we make from the base. The original rotors are balanced and tested up to 10,000 rpm in my shop, and you are right, we regrind rotor shafts to accept bearings.

I have been building blowers for a lot of years now, and have built these blowers to be cost effective at the $1585.00 that I have up on the 6v53's and have the ability to produce blowers on the ready. I like the work you have in yours as well, and the time you have taken to make your blowers. Very nice stuff. But, I will tell you from a machine shop owners standpoint and just for your longevity in building these. The $1585.00 for a 6v53 is a very reasonable price to completely convert the blowers to a reliable street build. I am not sure what you will be selling yours for, but with the level of work you have going into them, I would imagine that when all the smoke and mirrors clears and you calculate the totals, the price will be significant. If not, hats off to you.

From an engineers standpoint, over engineering the 6v53's and 4-53's really is not neccessary. Six bolt patterns hold an amazing amount of pressure. More than you will ever need to exert on a blower. Neoprene seals versus teflon, its a personal choice. Knowing that seals wear in, and once they do after about 2 hours of time on the seal, they seal no different than one another, Teflon seals cost more.

Replacing the shafts with high grade steel, unless you are planning on winning the NHRA National Finals with the blower, it is overkill. More bolts, and all adds costs to the blower that are really not necessary for the size of these blowers.

Given years of experience at running these blowers (never offering any for sale till now on the web site), and unless you are willing to teflon strip the rotors, you will be lucky to get 15 pounds boost. Normal operating boost ranges from a couple of pounds up to about 12 maximum. But considering the normal hot rodder out there, 12 pounds is more than enough to blow an engine up. Taking the dynamic compression ratios (not talking static compression ratios) above 10.0:1 (unless the motor is built for it) obviously is not a good idea on pump gas.

I will say this though as some food for thought on the rotors you are designing. Lighten them up. If they weigh more than the cast rotors, they weigh too much. Hence part of why Weiand, Holley, and B&M built aftermarket rotors from billet extrusion rather than machining from billet solids. The rotating mass of the rotors places a lot more stress on all the components and the "as cast" rotors are fine in the weight dept.

A similar concept applies as anyone who is in the "know" on piston velocity in a cylinder. a few GRAMS of differences in piston weight translates into hundreds of pounds of pressure per square inch on the wrist pin, connecting rod, and piston at top deac center and bottom dead center on a high revving motor.

Rotor weight acts somewhat the same but not as critical. Your blowers will LAST a lot longer the lighter the rotors, and more balanced they are.

You can place the MOST tricked out parts in the blower you want, but when it comes to longevity, that is the true test. People want a blower that they never have to replace.

Very cool stuff,

Lain Murphy
Murphy's Blowers

 

I saw a 32 with a flatty,blower and 3 carbs on top and it looked nice.

 

Hi Lain. Thank you for your response to my project thread. It's nice to have someone with experience in this field give their input.

This project is not intended for an average do-it-yourself hot-rodder, but for someone with enough knowledge and access to the right equipment, machinery, and tooling. The aim here is to provide basic ground work for those type of people who want to tackle a project like this on their own. I had no intention of making a full blown business out of it. Well, at least for now...

My comparisons to your blower conversion verus mine was not meant to be a competitive one. It was meant to be an objective one. I'm comparing something that was professionally done by experienced people in the field to something done by a hotrod enthusiast. All I can say is that I don't think I've done a bad job so far.

I understand that engineering and building equipment takes time and money. I've been around the block many times myself to know this to be true. I'm not disputing that at all, but I'm also seeing things from a nonprofessional stand point as well. Most people who are into hot-rodding and vintage car building are average people. They try to do most things themselves and many of them are very talented at it to be sure. They do it because they enjoy it and have a passion for it. They build there projects to suit them and they take pride in it. Usually, these kind of people don't have an endless supply of money to fulfill their dream. So, they try to save money where ever they can. And If anyone would factor the time in their projects as far as money goes, nobody would build anything. I believe that I can consider myself one of those people.

I agree that adding small items such as nuts, bolts, ect. can drive the cost up a bit. If it only adds up to a few dollars and cents, who cares? It's a personal preference at this point. Even with the addition to all of the purchased parts (like the aluminum, steel, smoke, and mirrors), I bet I still won't have anywhere near your advertised price in my blower. This of course does not include the designing and "engineering". I know what the materials cost. I deal with that sort of thing on a daily basis. Even if it does cost the same or more than your units, it's still my custom.

Making new rotors, shafts, and using teflon seals was a personal decision. It provided me a solution in the design as well as giving an edge in performance and better serviceablity. It also gives me the ability to reproduce parts or build a unit from scratch myself.

The rotors are in fact lighter than the originals. The total weight savings in the new rotor assembly is 4.5 lbs from the originals. I still have the ability to reduce their weight even further.


You are right about having a well balanced rotor assembly for longevity. I believe in being thorough with a project like this. I'm taking your advice. There is no sense in disreguarding something as critical as this. Once the rotors are completely finished, I will be sending them off for balancing. There is a company just down the road from my shop that specializes in this sort of stuff. They do balancing for single parts up to small production runs. I will be giving them a call on Monday for a price quote. However, I still believe the balancing will be minimal, if any.

As far as how much boost we make, we'll be happy with somewhere around 6 to 9 psi most likely.

The teflon seals are really not that expensive. What? $18.00 for a set four is expensive? Will they seal any better? Well, maybe not. Again, I agree with you here. It's a personal decision.

I am aware of the fact that there are certain aspects of my conversion that are considered to be somewhat of an overkill. Longevity is my goal for my custom project too. This project is ever evolving. Things have changed many times, and will change again before the project is completed. So, some of what I've said here in this thread may or may not be a viable in the completed design.

I respect your knowledge, expertise, and experience. I will take everthing you have said in careful consideration. I'm always open to suggestions and criticism, if need be. I don't claim to be an expert be any means. I don't want this to become a battle between us here. I just wanted to show people what could be done with a little ambition that's all.

Requards,
BadBlownMotor