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Chain Drive

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by dafman, May 14, 2012.

  1. The tension issue could be solved with a parallel 4 link suspension having the frame pivots lined up with the forward sprocket shaft. That way everything would stay in a common arc, and the link bar adjusters could be used to tension the chains.

    Weasel, that Fraser-Nash open dog "transmission" is awesome...:D.

    Wonder if they thought about a giant 10 speed derailleur shifter? YIKES!
     
  2. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Having some experiance with chain drives, the fore/aft tensioning isn't as big a problem as the lateral "tilt" of the axle sprocket opposed to the fixed drive sprocket. Not saying it can't be done, as it can, but it needs to be engineered correctly and its limitations need to known. And unlike a automotive differential all the parts need frequent mantainance and need to be regarded as "consumables". Not unlike a MC.
     

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  3. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Car shown is it's class record holder at 352.525 mph. It is chain driven. Chain life is very short. But when it works, it works good.
     

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  4. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Honda addressed that problem by having independent trailing arms that only pivoted vertically.
     
  5. Sounds like it's great for fire trucks. Hot rods, not so much.
     
  6. 97
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,982

    97
    Member

    The Stanton Corvette has been racing in New Zealand since the 50s. It is a space frame with a flathead diff and chain drive behind a corvette engine. It's fast and reliable.It was a winning car in it's day and is still competitive in vintage/classic/nostalgia racing in New Zealand and Australia.

    [​IMG]
    Stanton Corvette by racin jason, on Flickr

    [​IMG]
    Stanton Corvette by racin jason, on Flickr
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  7. Beau
    Joined: Jul 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,884

    Beau
    Member

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/burpythehippo/4402680031/in/photostream/

    That's a pretty clever set-up for the diff.

    Chains probably work fine on clean race tracks when they are replaced often. The chains would get destroyed on city streets pretty quick. I'd also like to see what the car look like after they lube the chain and run it for a little while.
     
  8. bohica2xo
    Joined: Mar 6, 2012
    Posts: 153

    bohica2xo
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Well the M26 Tank Retriever went through WWII with chain drive on the rear wheels. Sometimes called a "Pacific", we used them up through 1955.

    It was however limited to a top speed of 26 mph, and was powered by a 240 hp, 6 cylinder Hall-Scott 440 gasoline engine.

    B.
     
  9. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,616

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Anybody ever see the movie "Kelly's Heroes" with Clint Eastwood and among many others...Donald Sutherland? i like how Sutherland's character is always countering the naysayers by saying something like "enough of the negative vibes baby".

    Here are some GN and Frazer Nash images thanks to Hary Hall restorations.

    Oh yeah....enough of the negative vibes babies!
     

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  10. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,616

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    Ok,here are some competition chain drive cars.
     

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  11. 97
    Joined: May 18, 2005
    Posts: 1,982

    97
    Member




    Well that is contrary to my experience, Like I said it was/is reliable and fast, we didn't have many race circuits back in the day of the Stanton Special or the Stanton Corvette, nearly all of our racing was done on street circuits. Some of them were even unsealed . Even our race circuits were/are not manicured dirt free sanitised roads, far more rustic than that in NZ. I remember Bay Park with quarter of an inch of sand blown on to some of the corners, and huge pine trees only 50 yards from the edge of the track. The Stanton's , and all the rest raced through this and I never saw/heard any problem or anyone with issues about oil coming from the chains or broken chains.... Some people only see the glass half empty!
     
  12. cavemag
    Joined: Jan 8, 2011
    Posts: 209

    cavemag
    Member

    Enclose it like a primary on a harley. Solves the lube, and road damage issue. It'd make adjusting it a little harder though.
     
  13. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member

    Is this the Fraiser-Nash that Ken Purdy once owned? His has a Blackburn 6 in it. Bob
     
  14. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,616

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

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  15. banjeaux bob
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 6,616

    banjeaux bob
    Member
    from alaska

    GN-Frazer Nash more than likely Dougal of Longstone Tyres "Piglet".

    Adrian Ward image
     

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  16. Don,t know if it,s any help but the little Honda Coupe was completely enclosed chain drive in two big aluminium housings. Came out in 1965.
     

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  17. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Additional info in posts #24 and #34.
     
  18. Jeem
    Joined: Sep 12, 2002
    Posts: 5,882

    Jeem
    Alliance Vendor

    That takes care of the articulation problem.
     
  19. Jack Innes
    Joined: Nov 26, 2010
    Posts: 178

    Jack Innes
    Member

    There seems to be a lot of undue concern about drive chains being ruined when exposed to road conditions. I think milllions of motorcycle owners could confirm that this is not a problem. Additionally the chain is often the most neglected maintenance item on a motorcycle.


    Automotively speaking, I replaced the drive chain on my 1904 Ford at 105 years as a precautionary act, not because it was worn out.
     

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  20. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    It is also true that chains become very inefficient and wear very quickly when not well lubricated. Also, pushing a motorcycle down the road is a lot easier on a chain than propelling a car.
     
  21. you will have to watch the final gear ratio. remember if you use a differintal from a modern car with too low of a ratio then gear it down more with the chains (drive sprocket smaller then the driven sprocket) you may end up with a very low final ratio. Of course, with taller wheels you could make it up. This is a very doable idea. Drive chains have OK life on dirt bikes and on the street they would last a long time I would think.
     
  22. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 5,026

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    Here's one of my reveries around chain drives:
    [​IMG]
    This because the majority of perfectly good engines and gearboxes out there are otherwise the wrong shape for a hot rod.

    I've often thought how one could do chain drive the way the OP wants. I'd expect it would involve some sort of A-shaped radius arms to keep the chains aligned in all planes, with CV joints under the forward sprockets. That way the chains stay aligned to the wheels in roll.

    You could run brakes on the forward sprockets and save the unsprung mass, but if you break a chain you've got no rear brakes. Unsprung mass will be better than a live axle anyway, so best not overthink that. I see the main advantage in packaging: being able to get a low floor over the rear axle, like when you want low seats right between the rear wheels. Remember, the axle needn't be straight in plan: it can bow around the back of the seats, for instance.
     
  23. I think this was used in heavy trucks (mostly) and they did not have much supension travel much less roll. But then on the other hand, lots of cars used this chain drive also, wonder how they handled the roll problem?
    Just thinking out loud, could you mount the differantial with the rear axle so they both move together?
    I guess that would be alot of unsprung weight.

    Maybe it would be best to just limit the travel some.
     
  24. where I used to work there were a few utility vehicles with the name Kalamazoo...these were flatbed trucks powered by an aircooled Wisconsin twin cylinder engine....they were coupled to a conventional clutch and a three speed transmission....the driveshaft coupled to a 5:13 to 1 open differential bolted solidly to the chassis...power to the dual rear wheels on either side was via sprockets and chains...the small sprocket being on the drive axle and the large sprocket on the driven axle....this contraption had a steering wheel and a single seat at the very front of the vehicle...they were used in the plant for light to medium hauling...if you didn't beat on them, they were surprisingly trouble free....if you did, however, pound on them. the axles on the driving differential would break off at the sprockets....they were fun to drive and had a top speed of maybe 12-15mph...fast enough for hydraulic brakes only on the rear tires.....so yes, your idea is feasible, but the chains will need constant lube and slack adjustments.
     
  25. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 5,026

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    On the contrary: you could mount the differential-axle to tilt about a longitudinal axis, but fixed to the frame. The rear axle would then be located to something like really stout ladder bars pivoting on the differential-axle. The huge advantage here is that roll and bump motions become completely separated, so you can spring and damp them independently.

    There might be advantage in flipping this, so the differential-axle is behind the rear axle. This might deliver very useful launch geometry.
     
  26. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Over the years, in the mini sprint world, several 'drive' systems have come and gone. They never really caught on, I suspect, due to cost, weight, added complexity and the fact that the more shit being driven the more HP is lost. Anyway, in a non-racing app. they might be more viable.
     

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  27. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Per previous posts, the best solution is independent rear suspension with the diff mounter to the chassis, and trailing arms that have the drive sprocket located at the center of the front arm pivots.
     
  28. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 5,026

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    The only problem is that such a trailing arm set-up would give positive camber gain equal to the roll angle, which might be diabolical in even a moderately powerful rear-wheel-driven car. By introducing CV joints at the forward sprockets one could at least morph it into semi-trailing arms, and once one goes that far one might as well be a whole lot cleverer than that.
     
  29. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Because of the camber situation, when trailing arms rear suspension is used, most have semi-trailing arms. That doesn't eliminjate the unwanted camber change, but it is reduced.

    Although not ideal, to one degree or another, most cars with independent suspension have negative camber gain.

    I have driven cars with pure trailing arms, and other cars with suspension that have camber change which is directly linked to body lean. It's not as terrible as you would think, especially if body lean is minimized. Morgan, VW, and early Porsche had this kind of suspension on the front. Old Min had trailing arms on the rear. All those cars did, or could be made to, handle pretty well. While trailing arms are not ideal, they will always be several steps up the ladder better than swing axles.
     
  30. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 5,026

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    All those cars had the pure vertical motion at the end where the designer's aim is to compensate for the effects of weight and power at the other end - except the Morgan, where the sliding pillars probably had more to do with packaging, ease of construction, and avoiding bump-steer. Inducing a bit of outward camber thrust at the front end of the VW and Porsche made it that much easier to keep the tail in line, and vice versa for the Mini and my own VW Golf Mk1, both of which might have been prone to the most ponderous understeer otherwise.

    That's why I'd steer clear of pure trailing arms on the powered rear axle of a car with around 50:50 weight distribution.
     

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